Author Topic: Murder,kill,destroy  (Read 4327 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online eik

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 247
  • Gender: Male
  • Welcome our New Member
Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #80 on: March 23, 2021, 08:10:50 PM »

Welcome to the Biblical and Theology Section of 1Faith

[Raise a Debate] @ 1faith

Your post will be answered shortly

Raise a Debate - by posting bait !
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

Thank you for pointing that out I had missed that but thinking about it it makes sense Matthias was chose by lot Paul was chosen by Christ so I believe Paul makes up the 12 apostles.

What I write is for all those that read our posts and what you write is useful to many even if we disagree.
When the bible refers to Adam, it doesn't refer to homo sapiens. It refers to those men who are God's representatives on earth, i.e. those men with more than a cursory knowledge of good and evil. Pre-eminenty we are dealing with kings and prophets. Adam was the first. Jesus the Last. That is why the OT is a history of potentates and prophets, as is the NT.

Other human beings. e.g. Canaanites are deemed "dogs" and "beasts" (cf. what Jesus and Paul said).



We know what man in Gods image it is Christ united with his bride the church so it stands to reason that the Father would be the same the Father the head the angels his body his woman his helper.

The scriptures do say that Christ is the last Adam

    1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit

   Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil               


So Christ is the last Adam and he began his creation as a man of flesh who became a living spirit through what he suffered.

Then we have.
    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.  The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/2co.5.17.ESV         


So we are a new creation in Christ and Christ is the last Adam.

The kingdom of God will be here on earth the kingdom of God is where God is and he will come down to earth and reign from Jerusalem

    3  And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

 4  And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more         

Sounds like it applies to Christians distributed amongst the nations on earth.

We know God and Magog survive the millennium, Rev 20:8, so I don't see your point. Unspiritual men will continue to exist until the day of judgement. (see Mat 24:41).

And the words of Job
     
     Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth         

Could be referring to Christ.

What will happen after the millenium we are not told only God will create a new heaven and earth.
I think we are told a lot of things about what will happen after the millennium: see Rev: 20:7-15. So I disagree with everything you say about the millennium. I disagree with your omission of the judgement of all men. Are you a universalist?



https://bible.com/bible/59/2co.5.17.ESV

Welcome to the Biblical and Theology Section of 1Faith

[Raise a Debate] @ 1faith

Your post will be answered shortly

Raise a Debate - by posting bait !

Offline davetaff

  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3378
  • Gender: Male
  • New :God is Love
Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #81 on: March 24, 2021, 12:19:17 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

Quote
     When the bible refers to Adam, it doesn't refer to homo sapiens. It refers to those men who are God's representatives on earth, i.e. those men with more than a cursory knowledge of good and evil. Pre-eminenty we are dealing with kings and prophets. Adam was the first. Jesus the Last. That is why the OT is a history of potentates and prophets, as is the NT.         

You will need to prove that with scripture the first Adam before the flood would have been created in the same way Israel and Christ but the first Adam before the flood was spoiled by the angles that came down and cohabited with the woman so God destroyed the first Adam with the flood then began anew with everything on the ark.

Quote
        3  And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

 4  And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more       

 
Sounds like it applies to Christians distributed amongst the nations on earth         

This quote from Isaiah is speaking of Christs millennial reign which will be here on earth from Jerusalem and will last 1000 years.

Yes Gog and Magog and the devil will be released note at the end of the millennium

     7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever     


The devil will be released and God will devour him but he will not be destroyed but will be tormented for ever.

Quote
    Quote from: davetaff on Yesterday at 01:39:49 PM
And the words of Job
     
     Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth     
   
Could be referring to Christ           

It is referring to Christ Job did not see Christ at his first coming but will see him at his second coming after the resurrection of the dead.

Quote
    I think we are told a lot of things about what will happen after the millennium: see Rev: 20:7-15. So I disagree with everything you say about the millennium. I disagree with your omission of the judgement of all men. Are you a universalist           

The way I read it is the devil will be released at the end of the millenium and will be  consumed with fire at the end then God shall create a new heaven and earth what that will be we are not told

Of course there will be a judgement never said there would not be.

Whats a universalist why are you always trying to put me in a box.
What box are you in.

Love and Peace
Dave

Online eik

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 247
  • Gender: Male
  • Welcome our New Member
Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #82 on: March 24, 2021, 07:16:53 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

You will need to prove that with scripture the first Adam before the flood would have been created in the same way Israel and Christ but the first Adam before the flood was spoiled by the angles that came down and cohabited with the woman so God destroyed the first Adam with the flood then began anew with everything on the ark.
The proof is that the "first Adam" wasn't the first homo sapiens. Also Adam's descendant's founded cities (cf. Cain), so clearly he was an important man amongst men. Also the bible itself is only interested in Adam at all because he walked with God, as did his descendants. Other homo sapiens are ignored.

As for all the rest of your stuff - just adding to scripture.

No God didn't begin anew because Noah and his sons were a continuation of Adam's line.

This quote from Isaiah is speaking of Christs millennial reign which will be here on earth from Jerusalem and will last 1000 years.
No it won't. The bible says no such thing. It's what you say. We've already established before that the only Jerusalem of interest to the saints is the New Jerusalem from above. Galatians 4:26. The Old Jerusalem is finished. "Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children." What has Christ got to do with slavery? 

So you're adding to scripture.

Yes Gog and Magog and the devil will be released note at the end of the millennium

     7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever     


The devil will be released and God will devour him but he will not be destroyed but will be tormented for ever.

It is referring to Christ Job did not see Christ at his first coming but will see him at his second coming after the resurrection of the dead.
Nothing about Job seeing Christ in the passage you quoted. It's talking about what he knew. Again you're adding to scripture.

The way I read it is the devil will be released at the end of the millenium and will be  consumed with fire at the end then God shall create a new heaven and earth what that will be we are not told

Of course there will be a judgement never said there would not be.

Whats a universalist why are you always trying to put me in a box.
What box are you in.
You never mentioned the judgement. How do you account for the fact that Christ and the apostles were always referring to the judgement, as the most important thing that would happen, but with you it's all about the "millennium," which itself relies on an unproven assumption that 1000 years in Revelation isn't figurative, when we know that it is. See
http://www.scripturerevealed.com/bible-studies/the-meaning-of-numbers-the-number-1000/

Why are you looking forward to a millennium when Paul looked forward to being with Christ in heaven?

Thus:

Psalms 105:8 ? The covenant that God concludes with Abraham was valid for 1000 generations.
Deuteronomy 7:9 (KJV) ? ??which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that?keep his commandments to a thousand generations;?
1 Chronicles 16:15 (KJV) ? ?Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;?

Where does this figure in your scheme of prophecy?

I belong to the box of free and scientific biblical inquiry untrammelled by the doctrines of mere men, and whom rejected dispensationalism decades ago as contrived and heretical: the creation of men, and not God. I also reject all prophecy so termed that seeks to predict the end of the world.
http://www.scripturerevealed.com/bible-studies/the-meaning-of-numbers-the-number-1000/

Offline davetaff

  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3378
  • Gender: Male
  • New :God is Love
Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #83 on: March 25, 2021, 11:26:08 AM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

Quote
      The proof is that the "first Adam" wasn't the first homo sapiens. Also Adam's descendant's founded cities (cf. Cain), so clearly he was an important man amongst men. Also the bible itself is only interested in Adam at all because he walked with God, as did his descendants. Other homo sapiens are ignored.

As for all the rest of your stuff - just adding to scripture.

No God didn't begin anew because Noah and his sons were a continuation of Adam's line     

I have never said that Adam was the first homo sapien what I have said is when God created everything that creeps on the ground homo sapiens were included and God then said let us make man ( mankind) in our image and we know what he looked like we have Israel and Christ as examples this first Adam was disfigured by the angles and was destroyed.
Although Noah was a descendant of Adam he was not in the image of God even Christ has to be united with his bride man in the image of God is a whole multitude of people with Christ at the head.

I think you add to scripture especially when you change words to suit your theology.

       Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. View more

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband   


So I did not write the word new before Jerusalem sorry about that and Christ will reign from the new Jerusalem for a 1000 years as stated in scripture.

         
     Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth       


As far as I know we only have one redeemer and that is Christ Jesus our Lord and that is who Job will see.

       4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years     


All those who will sit on thrones and shall judge and reign with Christ for a 1000 years there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Christ will reign here on earth with his saints for a 1000 years the evidence of scripture is overwhelming.

I have looked at the link you have given and was not impressed just a man giving his opinion that the number 1000 is used throughout scripture is not in doubt and can mean different things in different context is not in doubt but when the scriptures say

          Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years     

Then I believe what it says Christ will reign for a 1000 years and it will be from the new Jerusalem which will come down from heaven to earth
And Paul will be with Christ judging the world.

Quote
   Psalms 105:8 ? The covenant that God concludes with Abraham was valid for 1000 generations.
Deuteronomy 7:9 (KJV) ? ??which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that?keep his commandments to a thousand generations;?
1 Chronicles 16:15 (KJV) ? ?Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;?

Where does this figure in your scheme of prophecy 

What this has to do with our discussion is beyond me a thousand years and a thousand generations are entirely different time periods.

Quote
       I belong to the box of free and scientific biblical inquiry untrammelled by the doctrines of mere men, and whom rejected dispensationalism decades ago as contrived and heretical: the creation of men, and not God. I also reject all prophecy so termed that seeks to predict the end of the world     

How about this prophecy

     And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

 5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

 6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

 7  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

 8  All these are the beginning of sorrows.

 9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

 10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

 11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

 12  And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

 13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.     


So you reject the words of our Lord that we can not know the day I'll grant you but the sign of the times can be determined.

Love and Peace
Dave




Online eik

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 247
  • Gender: Male
  • Welcome our New Member
Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #84 on: March 25, 2021, 12:57:51 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

I have never said that Adam was the first homo sapien what I have said is when God created everything that creeps on the ground homo sapiens were included and God then said let us make man ( mankind) in our image and we know what he looked like we have Israel and Christ as examples this first Adam was disfigured by the angles and was destroyed.
Although Noah was a descendant of Adam he was not in the image of God even Christ has to be united with his bride man in the image of God is a whole multitude of people with Christ at the head.
What did God say? Gen 3:22 "Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil. And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...""

This proves that the "image of God" was only enhanced by Adam's sin. What was lost was eternal life.

"Although Noah was a descendant of Adam he was not in the image of God" is both false and invention as it isn't found in the bible.


See Genesis 9:6. God affirms that Noah is in God's image, and moreover that the "image of God" concept had been extended to all men through Adam.

"Whoever sheds human blood,
    by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
    has God made mankind."

I think you add to scripture especially when you change words to suit your theology.
I'm just going by what isn't in the bible, like " Noah  was not in the image of God." You're the one creating a whole new theology by adding words to the bible. I can't find a single other person who agrees with you, although I can't be troubled to spend much time on this.

Would you care to name just one published author who asserts what you assert?

       Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. View more

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband   


So I did not write the word new before Jerusalem sorry about that and Christ will reign from the new Jerusalem for a 1000 years as stated in scripture.
Preceding Rev 21:2 is Rev 21:1 which says

"1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. "

So we see the new Jerusalem is associated with a new heavens and a new earth.

So you're confusing the millennium so termed with the new heavens and a new earth which, previously, you distinguished (correctly).

         
     Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth       


As far as I know we only have one redeemer and that is Christ Jesus our Lord and that is who Job will see.
John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see My day. He saw it and was glad.? 

So if Abraham could see Christ in the flesh, prophetically, or else literally looking down from heaven, then so could Job. No need to posit a millennium connection.

       4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years     


All those who will sit on thrones and shall judge and reign with Christ for a 1000 years there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Christ will reign here on earth with his saints for a 1000 years the evidence of scripture is overwhelming.
Obviously the realm of Christ's reign is earth, but nothing whatsoever to say that Christ or the saints will be physically present.

I have looked at the link you have given and was not impressed just a man giving his opinion that the number 1000 is used throughout scripture is not in doubt and can mean different things in different context is not in doubt but when the scriptures say

          Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years     

Then I believe what it says Christ will reign for a 1000 years and it will be from the new Jerusalem which will come down from heaven to earth
And Paul will be with Christ judging the world.
The link showed that 1000 is always used in the sense of a very large number.

Again you've no evidence that 1000 in Revelation is not in this sense.

What this has to do with our discussion is beyond me a thousand years and a thousand generations are entirely different time periods.
Indeed. A thousand generations is 15000 years at least, which doesn't fit in with any known prophecy. So 1000 is not always prophetic, and my point is that it is never prophetic. It's just a figure of speech.

How about this prophecy

     And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

 4  And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

 5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

 6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

 7  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

 8  All these are the beginning of sorrows.

 9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

 10  And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

 11  And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

 12  And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

 13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 14  And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.     


So you reject the words of our Lord that we can not know the day I'll grant you but the sign of the times can be determined.
Not at all. It's like a sliding share price. The stock may fall 50% and you might say "the end is nigh." But then it might fall another 50%, and another 50% and so on and so on, for the next 500 years. You can tell when the stock is falling (i.e. the signs of the times) but that doesn't mean to say that you know when the company is going to go involvent. Indeed it may be brought out by another company, i.e. conquered, and then the stock will rise again.

Thus the deistic corruption of France in the 18th century, where religion was officially abolished by government, was rectified to a limited extent shortly after, when it was re-instated.

Offline davetaff

  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3378
  • Gender: Male
  • New :God is Love
Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #85 on: March 26, 2021, 11:38:09 AM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

Quote
     What did God say? Gen 3:22 "Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil. And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...""

This proves that the "image of God" was only enhanced by Adam's sin. What was lost was eternal life       

Mankind had to have the knowledge of good and evil and this knowledge  was given to Israel through the law the law tells us what sin is.
The reason being we must choose the good and reject the bad.

Quote
      Although Noah was a descendant of Adam he was not in the image of God"
 is both false and invention as it isn't found in the bible   

Very true but what is found in the bible is two very good examples of what man in the image of God looks like and Noah looks nothing like any of them.

Quote
     See Genesis 9:6. God affirms that Noah is in God's image, and moreover that the "image of God" concept had been extended to all men through Adam.     

      6  Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man     

This verse is referring to man in the image of God which is Israel and Christ Israel killed Christ and Israel was killed by Rome.
Men have been killing one another ever since man was created but not everyone who has killed someone has been killed by another man.

Quote
     I'm just going by what isn't in the bible, like " Noah  was not in the image of God." You're the one creating a whole new theology by adding words to the bible. I can't find a single other person who agrees with you, although I can't be troubled to spend much time on this.

Would you care to name just one published author who asserts what you assert       

As for Noah I have given my reasons above as for the rest I have said before what I say is how Gods word speaks to me I have read quite a few books by different authors many of them saying different things so one day I put them all to one side asked myself how dose Gods word speak to me and what you see is what you get.

Quote
       Preceding Rev 21:2 is Rev 21:1 which says

"1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. "

So we see the new Jerusalem is associated with a new heavens and a new earth.

So you're confusing the millennium so termed with the new heavens and a new earth which, previously, you distinguished (correctly)       

Think your right thank you for pointing that out.

Quote
     John 8:56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see My day. He saw it and was glad.?

So if Abraham could see Christ in the flesh, prophetically, or else literally looking down from heaven, then so could Job. No need to posit a millennium connection         

The verse says would see my day not had seen my day the question is how did he see it and what day are we talking about Christs first or second advent did he see it in a vision of course he would see it after the resurrection there is nothing in scripture that says he went to heaven what it dose say is.

        Gen 25:8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people       

Quote
      Obviously the realm of Christ's reign is earth, but nothing whatsoever to say that Christ or the saints will be physically present         

      Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. View more

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband           


Were dose the new Jerusalem come down too and from where.

Quote
     The link showed that 1000 is always used in the sense of a very large number.

Again you've no evidence that 1000 in Revelation is not in this sense     

And you have no evidence that it dose not mean 1000 years only the word of a man I prefer to believe the word of God.

Quote
       Indeed. A thousand generations is 15000 years at least, which doesn't fit in with any known prophecy. So 1000 is not always prophetic, and my point is that it is never prophetic. It's just a figure of speech         

If God says its a 1000 years then that's what it means saying its a figure of speech is just a cop out because it dose not fit with your theology.

Don't understand what the last part of your post has to do with this discussion.

Love and Peace
Dave

Online eik

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 247
  • Gender: Male
  • Welcome our New Member
Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #86 on: March 26, 2021, 01:06:09 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

Mankind had to have the knowledge of good and evil and this knowledge  was given to Israel through the law the law tells us what sin is.
The reason being we must choose the good and reject the bad.
No, I have explained that the knowledge of good and evil exists apart from the written code, and began with Adam eating from the tree. The moral law is written on the conscience also, and learnt from others, just as Paul says in Roms 1 & 2. You do seem to want to ignore absolutely everything I say.

You also seem to be reducing the bible to absurdity in taking things completely out of context and putting them in another context.

Very true but what is found in the bible is two very good examples of what man in the image of God looks like and Noah looks nothing like any of them.
Appearances are less important than what God says, and here he spoke directly to Noah. Who are you to quibble?

      6  Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man     

This verse is referring to man in the image of God which is Israel and Christ Israel killed Christ and Israel was killed by Rome.
Men have been killing one another ever since man was created but not everyone who has killed someone has been killed by another man.
No, the tense is present "Whoso sheddeth" not "Whoso will shed at some point long into the future..."

As for Noah I have given my reasons above as for the rest I have said before what I say is how Gods word speaks to me I have read quite a few books by different authors many of them saying different things so one day I put them all to one side asked myself how dose Gods word speak to me and what you see is what you get.
I don't accept that what you say is God's word, because it doesn't conform to what is written. It might conform to your own theory, but that's "your own word."

Anyway, I still look forward to you adducing just one other human being on the entire planet whom agrees with you. You must grasp that you are very unlikely to be correct if you alone can see things aright. God also has a remnant, even 7000, who don't bow the knee to Ba'al Rom 11:4; but 7000 is not 1 (i.e. you).

Also I wonder if you see "7000" as literal here? Surely the number is symbolic?

Think your right thank you for pointing that out.

The verse says would see my day not had seen my day the question is how did he see it and what day are we talking about Christs first or second adveWhoso sheddeth man's bloodnt did he see it in a vision of course he would see it after the resurrection there is nothing in scripture that says he went to heaven what it dose say is.
Christ said nothing about "returning as a man." The context is "my (i.e. Christ's) day." He was referring to himself, the man, the human being. His day. Not the future, as in "Christ ascending to where he was before."John 6:62. He said nother about coming back down again. He talked about returning to collect the harvest, but it be the angels who gather it Matthew 13:39 (not Christ himself in person).

I think you are very mistaken if you think Christ is going to return as a human being.

        Gen 25:8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people       

      Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. View more

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband           


Were dose the new Jerusalem come down too and from where.
The context is that is comes down from the new heavens to the new earth.

And you have no evidence that it dose not mean 1000 years only the word of a man I prefer to believe the word of God.
If God says its a 1000 years then that's what it means saying its a figure of speech is just a cop out because it dose not fit with your theology.
The "word of God" is mistranslated if you don't recognize idioms. I have asked you to account for what "1000 generations" means in the OT. Why does the number "1000" appear so frequently and in so many different contexts? Does it mean circa 15,000-20,000 years or does it mean a very large number of generations? You have yet to answer. Please stop evading the issue.

I believe it means:  "an indefinite but very large quantity" when referring to timespans, but when referring to populations (7000 who do not bow the knew to Ba'al etc), it means a small or select proportion.


Don't understand what the last part of your post has to do with this discussion.

You said: "So you reject the words of our Lord that we can not know the day I'll grant you but the sign of the times can be determined."

On re-reading your statement it is self-contradictory.

All I'm saying is that you can read the times, but it doesn't mean you can read the end of the world.

Offline davetaff

  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 3378
  • Gender: Male
  • New :God is Love
Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #87 on: March 27, 2021, 01:52:05 PM »
No, I have explained that the knowledge of good and evil exists apart from the written code, and began with Adam eating from the tree. The moral law is written on the conscience also, and learnt from others, just as Paul says in Roms 1 & 2. You do seem to want to ignore absolutely everything I say.

  but I am speaking of the law given to Israel through Mose what other nations had for laws is of no interest for this discussion       St Paul had this to say

          Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression           
So the other nations did not have Gods law only Israel and only Israel could brake the law           


You also seem to be reducing the bible to absurdity in taking things completely out of context and putting them in another context.
Appearances are less important than what God says, and here he spoke directly to Noah. Who are you to quibble?
No, the tense is present "Whoso sheddeth" not "Whoso will shed at some point long into the future..."
I don't accept that what you say is God's word, because it doesn't conform to what is written. It might conform to your own theory, but that's "your own word."

I may have taken them out of your contex but they work great in mine everything I say is based in scripture and on the creation account in Genesis and it works great for me.
Whats your interpretation of Genesis       


Anyway, I still look forward to you adducing just one other human being on the entire planet whom agrees with you. You must grasp that you are very unlikely to be correct if you alone can see things aright. God also has a remnant, even 7000, who don't bow the knee to Ba'al Rom 11:4; but 7000 is not 1 (i.e. you)

      I have jest bought a book by Peter Enns & Jared Byas where they say that the creation account in Genesis is the history  of Israel in miniature I have not finished the book yet and they do not say everything I do but it is interesting  that they view the creation account differently the books called Genesis for normal people         
 
Also I wonder if you see "7000" as literal here? Surely the number is symbolic?
Christ said nothing about "returning as a man." The context is "my (i.e. Christ's) day." He was referring to himself, the man, the human being. His day. Not the future, as in "Christ ascending to where he was before."John 6:62. He said nother about coming back down again. He talked about returning to collect the harvest, but it be the angels who gather it Matthew 13:39 (not Christ himself in person).

  that numbers in scripture can be symbolic is not in dispute but it dose not mean that all numbers are symbolic   
 And when the bible says       and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years            then you can bet your bottom dollar thats what will happen   


I think you are very mistaken if you think Christ is going to return as a human being.
The context is that is comes down from the new heavens to the new earth.
The "word of God" is mistranslated if you don't recognize idioms. I have asked you to account for what "1000 generations" means in the OT. Why does the number "1000" appear so frequently and in so many different contexts? Does it mean circa 15,000-20,000 years or does it mean a very large number of generations? You have yet to answer. Please stop evading the issue.

   when have I said Christ will return as a human being when Christ returns united with his bride he will be a spiritual being what he will look like I have absolutely no Idea
  As for the number question just because one number is symbolic dose not mean  all numbers are symbolic each number must be looked at in its own context         


I believe it means:  "an indefinite but very large quantity" when referring to timespans, but when referring to populations (7000 who do not bow the knew to Ba'al etc), it means a small or select proportion.


You said: "So you reject the words of our Lord that we can not know the day I'll grant you but the sign of the times can be determined."

On re-reading your statement it is self-contradictory.

All I'm saying is that you can read the times, but it doesn't mean you can read the end of the world.

Love and Peace
Dave

Welcome to the Biblical and Theology Section of 1Faith

[Raise a Debate] @ 1faith

Your post will be answered shortly

Raise a Debate - by posting bait !
 


SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal