Author Topic: Murder,kill,destroy  (Read 4314 times)

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Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2021, 11:41:37 AM »

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Non-sequitur as there are plenty of places in the bible in which God orders killing. Don't forget that Saul was put to death because he did not put the Amalekite king to death, and spared their animals.
I wonder what Non-sequitur means
A conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement.

yes there are lots of instances in the OT where God orders killing I'm reading Jeremiah at the moment and its full of it of course this is the OT and we are under the NT.
In the NT Peter is commanded to kill and eat the meaning being to kill through baptism and to eat to consume into the body of Christ so did God mean the same for Israel.
On the other hand we can look at it from the point of view that everyone will die and God will raise up everyone on the last day.
The law was given to Israel who is the Son of God and they were commanded to obey it to the letter which they did not do and as a result they were rejected on the other hand Christ obeyed the law and was accepted so the question if Israel had obeyed the law would they have been accepted and the law include thou shalt not kill
Obviously if the Israelites had not displaced the Canaanites by wiping them out then they would never have become established in the "promised land." They would have failed even more severely than they did fail.

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An infantile approach to biblical interpretation will introduce unsanctioned contradiction. It will reduce the bible to idiocy.
what do you expect I'm a child in Christ and what have I said that contradicts scripture or are you saying your the only one who is right       
As I said before, your scriptural analysis so often seems to be a contradiction. You (or rather your denomination's position which you articulate on its behalf) fails to take the overall schema of Christianity into account. If you knew the law, you would know that there is a fundamental aspect to law which requires one to always make the best sense of the law. By making a worst sense, you reduce it to ridicule. Introducing a novel commandment "not to kill" that doesn't actually appear in the Hebrew text, you are disparaging the OT as a contradiction in terms, alongside the heatherns, whom already despise the OT.

If you are such a "child" that you simply can't make a "best sense" of the bible without reducing it to absurdity, then should you be a bible teacher at all? For those who purport to teach but do so inadequately will be judged more harshly (James 3:1). This is why JW will be judged harshly for everything they have got wrong in doctrine, including
- a tendency to elevate peripheral teachings to great prominence (i.e. 6th commandment),
- extra-scriptural source of authority (Watch Tower teachings that the Bible may be understood only as it is interpreted by the Governing Body).
etc.
(Wiki)
- denying the resurrection of Christ in the flesh
etc.
(me & others)

You've got to be more than a "child" to teach the bible,1 Cor 13:11, even if all you're doing is parroting the JW teaching of others.

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It is obvious why the KJV used "Do not kill." It was done for entirely political reasons, to prevent rebellion against the king, which would soon occur when the likes of Oliver Cromwell overthrew the monarchy. The gift of learning and of wisdom is not given to all. Yet you seem to be advocating laziness. God requires worship in "heart soul and mind." This would include being mindful of ancient languages.
Do you honestly believe That the God of all creation is interested in men's petty politics as for education not everyone can have the privilege I certainly did not and like I have said before I don't believe God gave us the bible for only academics to understand
Certainly God is interested in all things pertaining to men.

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As far as "Do not murder is concerned" it is obvious from the bible that the only context of raw-tsakh' is homicide. It is not used in any other context.
    Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.         

so as the law concerned Christ the last Adam it also concerns  the first Adam Israel and when the law says thou shalt not kill it mean exactly that.
That man has changed the word to murder is so they can justify every other type of killing going to war and blowing each other to bits dropping atom bombs on innocent woman and children
No one has "changed" any word to "murder". That is a close English equivalent of the Hebrew word. Israel killed many thousands of Canaanites in their wars, and to fulfil the commandments of God (not that I accept your premise of Israel being the first Adam).  Yet the Israelites didn't indiscriminately slaughter those prepared to make peace with them.

The Japanese committed many unspeakable atrocities during WWII on civilians in many countries, and were fortunate to escape with the sovereignty of their nation intact at all, because Japan was given over to idolatry, being a barbarous and cruel nation in WWII. A veritable nation of Amalekites, which as with the Amalekites, started unjustifiable wars.

Your general judgement on those who fought against the Japanese is quite uncalled for, in fact would be viewed as disgraceful by many; and as I have said, your JW theology is that of a tiny minority. If ever there was a just war, it was the war against the Japanese. There is an argument over whether the A bombs were strictly necessary, but that's another matter.

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Online davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2021, 01:45:01 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

Quote
    Obviously if the Israelites had not displaced the Canaanites by wiping them out then they would never have become established in the "promised land." They would have failed even more severely than they did fail   

It was not Israel it was God.

      3  The LORD thy God, he will go over before thee, and he will destroy these nations from before thee, and thou shalt possess them: and Joshua, he shall go over before thee, as the LORD hath said           

Quote
      As I said before, your scriptural analysis so often seems to be a contradiction. You (or rather your denomination's position which you articulate on its behalf) fails to take the overall schema of Christianity into account. If you knew the law, you would know that there is a fundamental aspect to law which requires one to always make the best sense of the law. By making a worst sense, you reduce it to ridicule. Introducing a novel commandment "not to kill" that doesn't actually appear in the Hebrew text, you are disparaging the OT as a contradiction in terms, alongside the heatherns, whom already despise the OT     

I don't have a denomination I just have the word of God as I have it in my bible as for making sense of the law I don't have to what I do have to do is to obey it and the best way to do that is through love as our Lord has made clear.

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        If you are such a "child" that you simply can't make a "best sense" of the bible without reducing it to absurdity, then should you be a bible teacher at all? For those who purport to teach but do so inadequately will be judged more harshly (James 3:1). This is why JW will be judged harshly for everything they have got wrong in doctrine, including
- a tendency to elevate peripheral teachings to great prominence (i.e. 6th commandment),
- extra-scriptural source of authority (Watch Tower teachings that the Bible may be understood only as it is interpreted by the Governing Body).
etc.
(Wiki)
- denying the resurrection of Christ in the flesh
etc.
(me & others)

You've got to be more than a "child" to teach the bible,1 Cor 13:11, even if all you're doing is parroting the JW teaching of others       

What I don't understand is as you are a fellow Christian why you have to attack me with such language why can't we talk to each other and discuss our differences in a friendly and loving way.
I don't pretend to be a teacher all I do is give my opinion on how Gods word speaks to me if you wish to change me mind you will have to give me a better explanation for text and interpretation I give.
I see you are still going on about the JW why I do not know so I will say it again I am not never have been and will never be A JW.

Quote
        No one has "changed" any word to "murder". That is a close English equivalent of the Hebrew word. Israel killed many thousands of Canaanites in their wars, and to fulfil the commandments of God (not that I accept your premise of Israel being the first Adam).  Yet the Israelites didn't indiscriminately slaughter those prepared to make peace with them     

My bible says kill so I will stick with that if you read the verse from Deuteronomy in the first post you will see that it was God that went before the Israelites and drove out the Canaanites.


As for Israel being gods son.

        But now thus says the Lord ,  he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel:  ?Fear not, for I have redeemed you;  I have called you by name, you are mine.
Isaiah 43:1 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/isa.43.1.ESV

  When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
Hosea 11:1 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/hos.11.1.ESV   


So you refuse to believe what the scriptures plainly states

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   The Japanese committed many unspeakable atrocities during WWII on civilians in many countries, and were fortunate to escape with the sovereignty of their nation intact at all, because Japan was given over to idolatry, being a barbarous and cruel nation in WWII. A veritable nation of Amalekites, which as with the Amalekites, started unjustifiable wars.

Your general judgement on those who fought against the Japanese is quite uncalled for, in fact would be viewed as disgraceful by many; and as I have said, your JW theology is that of a tiny minority. If ever there was a just war, it was the war against the Japanese. There is an argument over whether the A bombs were strictly necessary, but that's another matter                   

All sides in war commit atrocities war itself is an atrocity killing of any kind is atrocity and if everyone kept the law there would not be any wars then the question is if we approve of wars do we break the law we are commanded to love one another and love our enemies so if we love how can we kill

Love and Peace
Dave



.
https://bible.com/bible/59/isa.43.1.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/hos.11.1.ESV

Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2021, 04:56:31 PM »
John 10:10  The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

The killing, stealing, destroying - I've run out of time - but look it up..

It is the same as went upon our Lord and Saviour - if it killed Him - then...
Depends on whether the killing is done in the name of administration of justice or its just the mafioso at work. There's a difference may be, but not always, depending on whether your name is Rodrigo Borgia etc. I do not belong to a criminal organization, either church or non-church related.

Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2021, 09:04:35 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

It was not Israel it was God.
      3  The LORD thy God, he will go over before thee, and he will destroy these nations from before thee, and thou shalt possess them: and Joshua, he shall go over before thee, as the LORD hath said           
The Israelites killed the Canaanites. By your theory they sinned by breaking the 6th commandment.

I don't have a denomination I just have the word of God as I have it in my bible as for making sense of the law I don't have to what I do have to do is to obey it and the best way to do that is through love as our Lord has made clear.
Your teaching is JW through and through, irrespective of any denominational affiliation - without exception, even to your disparaging of the usefulness of knowing ancient languages. In fact I can honestly say I've never come across anyone more committed to the JW point of view, except for a JW.

What I don't understand is as you are a fellow Christian why you have to attack me with such language why can't we talk to each other and discuss our differences in a friendly and loving way.
I didn't attack you personally in my last post.  My last post was getting at the fact that not all are called to teach the bible. You have to be qualified to a certain extent. Just because Christ calls us to a childish faith in himself, doesn't mean to say that a child is qualified to teach the word of God. One has to have a degree of maturity in doctrine: to be able to distinguish truth from falsehood. That's all.

I don't regard JW teaching as Christian (period). Anyone can call themselves a Christian. It's not against the law of the land. Many do who I don't view as Christians. Doesn't mean I have to agree with them. There is nothing in the bible that says that I have too. 1 John 4:1.

What you are in doctrine, I haven't made up my mind, to be truthful. I reserve judgement.

If you preach JW doctrines, then I will certainly disagree with you. Some of your doctrines clearly tend to JW. So I will disagree. That's life. There is latitude to disagree on some things. I am fully non-JW.

I don't pretend to be a teacher all I do is give my opinion on how Gods word speaks to me if you wish to change me mind you will have to give me a better explanation for text and interpretation I give.
I see you are still going on about the JW why I do not know so I will say it again I am not never have been and will never be A JW.
Then why are some of your doctrines so JW orientated? What do you find so appealing about them as opposed to orthodoxy? Everyone, except JW, knows that a knowledge of Greek and Hebrew is very advantageous in understanding the bible.

I can understand why you could be against the high Trinity, as if comes from Greek paganism, but that isn't even a reason for having sympathy with JW doctrines. I don't accept the high Trinity formulation either, but I do accept that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all derive from the throne of God itself..

My bible says kill so I will stick with that if you read the verse from Deuteronomy in the first post you will see that it was God that went before the Israelites and drove out the Canaanites.
They were killed in their thousands in bloody battles. I read that from the bible too.

As for Israel being gods son.

        But now thus says the Lord ,  he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel:  ?Fear not, for I have redeemed you;  I have called you by name, you are mine.
Isaiah 43:1 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/isa.43.1.ESV

  When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
Hosea 11:1 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/hos.11.1.ESV   

So you refuse to believe what the scriptures plainly states
I never said Israel wasn't God's son. I query why you keep on referring to Israel as the first Adam. It's just so confusing. Adam doesn't mean "son."

And I didn't say anything against Israel being God's adopted son.

All sides in war commit atrocities war itself is an atrocity killing of any kind is atrocity and if everyone kept the law there would not be any wars then the question is if we approve of wars do we break the law we are commanded to love one another and love our enemies so if we love how can we kill
Love for enemies doesn't mean we are called to sancrifice ourselves before those intent on killing us.

Love for enemies is only for those who would mistreat within certain boundaries of "acceptable" mistreatment. Those boundaries can easily be crossed, and are everyday. Gypsies abound where I live and many are beyond the pale. They would rejoice in my death and steal my property if they could. I wouldn't sacrifice myself on their account. Some are very nasty individuals.

Self-defence is not precluded by anything in biblical law. Neither is fighting wars. Neither is judgement allowed on those who do, just because it involves killing. Killing is often necessary to defeat those who are unrepentant sinners. Like Islamic terrorists, like Nazis, like the Japanese. War must never be flippant but is often necessary. To say it is not is foolish as the world is a dangerous place.


https://bible.com/bible/59/isa.43.1.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/hos.11.1.ESV

Online davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2021, 10:48:33 AM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

Quote
      The Israelites killed the Canaanites. By your theory they sinned by breaking the 6th commandment   

When the Israelites entered the promised land there was no one to fight God had cleared the land before all they had to do was take possession of it and if they kept to worshipping the one true God and obeying his commands it would become a land flowing with milk and honey a paradise.
But of course they did not do that they sinned and as a result God brought in the surrounding nations as a chastisement.

I see you are back at having a go at the JW if on some points they say the same as me maybe there right I would not think everything they say is wrong.
As far as I'm concerned it's  not our place to judge we can leave that to God

Quote
   
I don't regard JW teaching as Christian (period)       

In that case you have to proove what they say is wrong from scripture.

As for teaching as I said before I don't  consider myself a teacher we have plenty of teachers in the bible and we should follow them especially Jesus Christ and not follow the teachings of men.

Quote
  If you preach JW doctrines, then I will certainly disagree with you. Some of your doctrines clearly tend to JW. So I will disagree. That's life. There is latitude to disagree on some things. I am fully non-JW.         

You can disagree with me all you like that is your right but disagreeing with each other is not very helpful especially to those who read our posts we should be looking for agreement in the scriptures you very rarely say what you believe the scriptures say to you.

As for Greek and Hebrew as I have said before I believe that God has given us  perfectly good translation in the KJV we don't need anything else and the foundation of all scripture is the creation account in Genesis.

As for love your enemies our Lord when willingly to the cross to prove his love for his enemies should we follow his example and why should we be afraid of death are we not going to a far far better place.

As for self defence our Lord had this to say.

       Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. View more

Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also     


So as follows of Christ should we obey him or man.

Yes you are right there is a great evil in the world but is it right to fight evil with evil

   Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time       

So we know why the earth looks the way it do but let's take solace in the fact that the devil has but a short time.

We must put all our trust in God who will keep all his promises.

Love and Peace
Dave


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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2021, 01:27:28 AM »



Here God goes against human will and demonic will and in the scriptures  releases the captive / His people from bondage of and from  the  egyptians.

God still does that today - with or within your will or your will allowing it [as He does not depemt on your will or what you want to believe]

These same captives now being free may well come under new attack [as the spiritual does not stop living] and coming up against us..

Therefore Israel came into "spiritual bondage" [Babylonian Exile] a mixer of human temptation and spiritual attack..



I really can't see how you can evaulate / Murder,kill,destroy/ under the same banner from a Spiritual perspective..

You can only see it under a flag of human and the ten commandments as you have here/ but not sure whether God meant it - this way ..

Youi are simply looking at an intellectual level [maybe not living it]



Many Israelites were in slavery for many years [with no will of their own] and meanwhile the  Egyptians were worshipping other god's...

Talk about death and destruction under other humans - worshipping other god's...

-

In the same way huge numbers of Jews were killed under hitlers  power..



It is not so much "who does it" - I am sure there must be a difference beteeen these scritures when interpretating  [Murder,kill,destroy]



Earthman

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2021, 01:59:10 AM »


The reason I chose John 10:10  The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.


Is because there is a difference between human affect and Spiritual ...

The context  is comparing human against / Spiritual / ..

Here you have the Good Shepherd Guarding [The Guardian] and then you have the Three opponents in this argument...

1. People [who at that time who were  their own god's  [that came up against Him.] these are the people that took Jesus to the Cross and still do today.. [these were and are still today the people who kill detroy the futures of and dedroy the faith of]

2. It's about leaders .. they are the role models - here the role models were the pharisees and the sadducees [the political players of that time]  who sent many to death

3. You must except that there are no parables/ etc / to replicate satan / satan is only replicating God and trying to replicate His Character..

Furthermore - satan is not God - the only thing he creates is discord and disharmony..

satan is completely against  family and church..



The reason I chose John 10:10   is because we are wrestling between what is spiritual of spiritual origin  and human and what is is of powers beyond our capability / capacity / during these events in human life  and living - we must evaluate the three and work out which one - is at work . and working against us/you/me.

just look out for family affecting you - look out for spirtual affecting them and look out for other things / I mean you only have to look at Corona Virus - to look at the modern attempts - to mess us up..

Whether you decoide this is sipiritual or human or just scientific is up to you



I suggest you relook at John 10:10  The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly

The thief can be peopke/family/or your neigbour / ATT It was the pharises or the sadducees / those who had the most influence / over you..













Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2021, 11:30:01 AM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

When the Israelites entered the promised land there was no one to fight God had cleared the land before all they had to do was take possession of it and if they kept to worshipping the one true God and obeying his commands it would become a land flowing with milk and honey a paradise.
But of course they did not do that they sinned and as a result God brought in the surrounding nations as a chastisement.
This is patently untrue. When first approaching the promised land, they saw the promised land was filled with giants and many others.

Num 13:30-33
Quote
"And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.

But the men that went up with him said, We be not able to go up against the people; for they are stronger than we.

And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, is a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it are men of a great stature.

And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight."

May be you should go and read the book of Joshua.

Jos 11:19 "There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in battle."

I see you are back at having a go at the JW if on some points they say the same as me maybe there right I would not think everything they say is wrong.
As far as I'm concerned it's  not our place to judge we can leave that to God
That would be to give Christian doctrine over to untrammelled heresy and disobey the bible

Jde 1:3 "Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God?s holy people."

Defending the faith isn't about maintaining the right of all men to label themselves as "Christians."

In that case you have to proove what they say is wrong from scripture.
I am disproving the pacifist intent of the bible in this thread. We are governed by the thread subject. I have done an adequate job of disproving that God calls all people to be pacific in the face of unequivocal evil that can be fought against (cf. the Israelites in Canaan) as opposed to the evil that can't. You have yet to show any scripture supporting your position except an inaccurate English translation in the KJV.

As for teaching as I said before I don't  consider myself a teacher we have plenty of teachers in the bible and we should follow them especially Jesus Christ and not follow the teachings of men.
I agree, but we have put Jesus' teaching in context. He came to save the "lost sheep of Israel" where Israel was a theocracy. Currently no-one to my knowledge lives in a theocracy. We are not called to pretend that we living in a society other than the one in which we find ourselves in, which is not a theocracy, even if a hundred years ago, it might have pretended to be one. Now it is unequivocally not one.

You can disagree with me all you like that is your right but disagreeing with each other is not very helpful especially to those who read our posts we should be looking for agreement in the scriptures you very rarely say what you believe the scriptures say to you.
In regard to this thread, I have made it clear that the bible doesn't teach the blanket pacifism position that the JWs adopt. However I do allow that pacificism may be justified in many cases, e.g. where the rulers are corrupt and war is waged frivilously, for impure motives, or against other Christians. However such judgements will be on a case by case basis, and not on a blanket basis, from some Watchtower edict or pseudo biblical basis. It is for each Christian, and each church to decide on a case by case basis. Thus the bible records that Roman centurions were not excluded from faith in Christ.

I do have a lot of sympathy for the pacifists in WWI, for that war was a truly disgraceful war and fomented by jingoistic propaganda as much as anything else.

That is to say, military service is not to be put on the same level as being an actor or actress in a pagan country, in terms of its inherent immorality. For defence of the realm is a positive thing as we all desire to live in peace, and someone has to be that peacekeeper, otherwise we would all be living in a fully islamified Europe by now.

As for Greek and Hebrew as I have said before I believe that God has given us  perfectly good translation in the KJV we don't need anything else and the foundation of all scripture is the creation account in Genesis.
The KJV is a useful contribution, but by no means the last word on bible translation. There are many errors in it and the style is often poor, especially the Hebrew translations. Thus to read Proverbs in the KJV style is very difficult. Far better to read it in the NIV style. Bible translation is a science as well as an art because there are many manuscript variations and alternative renderings; and science progresses ever onwards.

As for love your enemies our Lord when willingly to the cross to prove his love for his enemies should we follow his example and why should we be afraid of death are we not going to a far far better place.
It was Christ alone who died for sinners to fulfil the law. We are not called to lay down our lives in the same way for those who would trample us underfoot. There is no order to Christians to sacrifice themselves to the lions. Christ is the sacrifice, we are not that sacrifice. No-one is being asked to believe in us to reach heaven. However there may be occasions where we are "called" to lay down our lives on an exceptional basis where there is no other way of maintaining the honour of Christ.

We must have regard to the specific commands of Christ to flee persecution:

Mat 10:23 "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes."

For with enemies like Islam, and rampant atheism in the occident, the intention is often to denude the land of Christians and to stamp out faith in Christ. Large parts of the middle east are being denuded of Christians by Islamic fundamentalism. In the occident, the proportion of bible believing Christians is falling all the time. The gratuitous loss of Christians is not helpful to Christ's cause on earth.

As for self defence our Lord had this to say.

       Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. View more

Luk 6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also     

This is small fry, and Christ knew it.  His examples do not include threats to life, marital status, children or the home. He was talking about societal interactions in these passages. He wasn't talking about an internicine war situation, a war of faiths, or anything else.

So as follows of Christ should we obey him or man.
As I've said before we have to grasp the context of Christ's teaching which was limited to the theocracy of Israel and to Christ's presence amongst them. Elsewhere he commands swords for self-defence.

Yes you are right there is a great evil in the world but is it right to fight evil with evil

   Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time       

So we know why the earth looks the way it do but let's take solace in the fact that the devil has but a short time.

We must put all our trust in God who will keep all his promises.
I agree that oftimes evil is too overpowering for the individual to fight against. Then we are to flee it.

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