Murder,kill,destroy

[eik]

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

 Yes you are right I have a very simplistic view it comes of believing what the scriptures say and not what men say it says and not changing the words.     

        Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever             [ /color]

As we see for Adam to be in the image of God he needed to know good and evil its what he did with the knowledge.
I believe that the law given to Moses is the tree of knowledge of this creation.

You speak of other laws besides the laws given to Moses where can I find a list of these laws in the bible.

Roms 1 & 2. (e.g. Rom 2:15). The law of hypocrisy spelt out in Rom 2:17-24.

Israel is the first Adam of this creation

I refer you back to your statement " not what men say it says and not changing the words." Where exactly do I find this sentiment in the bible?  One rule for you, another for others?

which began with Noah the first Adam died in the flood.

Ditto

When Israel received the law they received the knowledge of good and evil

Ditto

and in so doing became like God

Ditto

then it becomes a question of what they would do with that knowledge

It became a question of how they would respond to the promises, not their increases "knowledge." I think your use of "knowledge" here indicates your own predisposition to gnosis, rather than the promises of God.

Reliance on a false gnosis rather than the promises of God is the characteristic of so many cults and pseudo-cults e.g. The "Lord's Witnesses" http://www.truebiblecode.com/, and the Plymouth Brethren who were eventually described by Watchman Nee as being great in knowledge but paltry in faith.

and we have the same choice they and we have to choose of our own free will shall we choose the good or the evil Israel chose to break the law and has paid the penalty.

Except that the promises of Christ are superior to Israel's Heb 8:6.

If you break one law you break the whole law.

The written code, that is.

So are you saying I can kill someone without breaking the law

It all depends on whether such is lawful at the time and in the context of the action, and whether it comes from faith.

Thus an example of a lawful killing would be a Treblinka escapee running away from the Treblinka, being pursued by a Ukrainian guard with a gun. The guard opens fire from near point-blank range. The gun jams on the second shot, the escapee, who was injured by the first shot, looks back, realizes that the gun has jammed, and return and kills the guard with a hatchet, before continuing his escape (real life historical situation).

the Christ fulfilled the law through obedience is not in question in so doing he shows us what we should be doing and our Lord made it even harder to comply with the law.

I think Christ made it far easier to comply with the law: Matthew 11:30

       21  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: note

 22  But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire     

So what you are saying we can do All the killing we like so long as we do not murder we can commit all sorts of atrocities in war and God will approve and we won't break the law the law what about this law

Plainly I never said "we can commit all sorts of atrocities in war" so why did you prefix it by "So what you are saying"?

     Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself

         43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

 44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you           

Nothing here that precludes the adminstration of justice. Nothing about denying a license to resist one's enemies. In any event, the context of the teaching was social relations in a theocracy (and by extension a church of God), not social relations in a pagan society or in a dangeous cult, whether operated by the State or by a sub-state entity.

As I have said before I don't have a denomination other than Christian belonging to the body of Christ is my one  ambition and the best way to achieve this is to follow the commands of Christ to love but you can't love your neighbor when your blowing his head of or dropping atomic bombs on him.

Even the command "to love" had its limitations in the right of self-defence, and you are merely pursuing such a teaching to a perverse extremity that the bible never contemplates. Thus the "command to love," when taken to the extremity that you have identified, is incompatible with Christ teaching at Matthew 10:23 "When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next."

By fleeing to the next town, one clearly becomes unable to "do good" to one's persecuting neighbour. One is breaking Jesus' command by fleeing, by your own estimation.

How could the Treblinka escapee I cited have fulfilled this command without killing the Ukranian guard?

So you're just taking various verses to an extremity, which is also reflected in you seeking to allege that the Israelites somehow sinned against God by killing off / massacring the idolatrous Canaanite inhabitants, which teaching I regard as near heretical, if not heretical.
http://www.truebiblecode.com/

[davetaff]

Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

   Roms 1 & 2. (e.g. Rom 2:15). The law of hypocrisy spelt out in Rom 2:17-24     

All this is covered in the 613 laws given to Moses and if we break any of Gods laws we are a law breaker.

     Israel is the first Adam of this creation

I refer you back to your statement " not what men say it says and not changing the words." Where exactly do I find this sentiment in the bible?  One rule for you, another for others     

And God said

     Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt. View more

Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son       

So Israel is Gods son and would be created in his image and being the first Adam was destroyed in the flood God created a new man in his Image Israel and if Christ is the last Adam there has to be a first which is Israel simple enough.

   Quote from: davetaff on Yesterday at 01:55:12 PM
which began with Noah the first Adam died in the flood.
Ditto       

When God destroyed everything in the flood he needed to start again using  everything that was on the ark the only thing missing was man in his image and this is what this creation is all about the first one he created was Israel the man of flesh the last one is Christ the man of spirit.

           Quote from: davetaff on Yesterday at 01:55:12 PM
When Israel received the law they received the knowledge of good and evil
Ditto       

    Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin         

I wonder what gnosis means

       Except that the promises of Christ are superior to Israel's Heb     

Agreed

    Quote from: davetaff on Yesterday at 01:55:12 PM
If you break one law you break the whole law.

The written code, that is       

Not forgetting there are 613 laws

  It all depends on whether such is lawful at the time and in the context of the action, and whether it comes from faith.

Thus an example of a lawful killing would be a Treblinka escapee running away from the Treblinka, being pursued by a Ukrainian guard with a gun. The guard opens fire from near point-blank range. The gun jams on the second shot, the escapee, who was injured by the first shot, looks back, realizes that the gun has jammed, and return and kills the guard with a hatchet, before continuing his escape (real life historical situation         

If I kill anyone for any reason I break the law of love

    Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Romans 13:10 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/rom.13.10.ESV     

You can't love your enemy the stick a chopper in his head you can't fight evil with evil

      Plainly I never said "we can commit all sorts of atrocities in war" so why did you prefix it by "So what you are saying     

Because that's whats coming across from you posts you say only murder is against the law all other killing is legal.
I see it as all killing is wrong and against the laws of love given to us by our Lord.

       Quote from: davetaff on Yesterday at 01:55:12 PM
     Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself

         43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

 44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you     

     
Nothing here that precludes the adminstration of justice. Nothing about denying a license to resist one's enemies. In any event, the context of the teaching was social relations in a theocracy (and by extension a church of God), not social relations in a pagan society or in a dangeous cult, whether operated by the State or by a sub-state entity     

You need to read what it says Love your enemies you can't love someone then go and kill them our Lord used no violence neither did his apostles they were all persecuted but never used violence we need to follow their example.

  Even the command "to love" had its limitations in the right of self-defence, and you are merely pursuing such a teaching to a perverse extremity that the bible never contemplates. Thus the "command to love," when taken to the extremity that you have identified, is incompatible with Christ teaching at Matthew 10:23 "When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next.       

God is love are you saying God has limitations I can't find the words self defence anywhere in scripture Mathew 10:23 is showing love by not meeting violence with violence

Love and Peace
Dave
https://bible.com/bible/59/rom.13.10.ESV

[eik]

Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

All this is covered in the 613 laws given to Moses and if we break any of Gods laws we are a law breaker.

And God said

     Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt. View more

Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son       

So Israel is Gods son and would be created in his image and being the first Adam was destroyed in the flood God created a new man in his Image Israel and if Christ is the last Adam there has to be a first which is Israel simple enough.

But so is Adam God's son and created in God's image: Luke 3:38. Simple enough, as also the entire line of Adam's godly descendants by extension. Just because they sinned didn't mean they stopped being the sons of God or God's instruments (cf. David who himself sinned, but didn't forfeit the promises attributed to the sons of God Psalms 2:7, 89:26-28 in which David calls God his father).

I think your teaching is part of a gnostic system. What authority besides yourself can you claim, either amongst the Jews or amongst the Gentiles, or within the bible itself for making such distinctions, or for pretending that the "sons of God" ceased to exist in God's image after Adam? I think you are a dispensationalist, of some kind. All this business about "re-creation" of a new man (Israel) in God's image is gnostic bunkum. That's not to say that Israel wasn't created to be God's son.

When God destroyed everything in the flood he needed to start again using  everything that was on the ark the only thing missing was man in his image and this is what this creation is all about the first one he created was Israel the man of flesh the last one is Christ the man of spirit.

I don't accept it. Again you're adding to the bible. God didn't destroy "everything" in the flood. Noah and his descendants (and likely his servants) all survived for a start. Also many other men, elsewhere on earth. But as far as the "sons of God" are concerned, Noah and his lineage were those sons.

    Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin         

I wonder what gnosis means

May be you should look at the history of gnosticism, in order to grasp why it is a trap that many fall into. I would say that today the vast majority of what purports to be orthodox Christianity is tainted with gnostic heresies. As Paul himself said "men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them" Acts 20:30.

Not forgetting there are 613 laws

If I kill anyone for any reason I break the law of love

    Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Romans 13:10 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/rom.13.10.ESV     

You can't love your enemy the stick a chopper in his head you can't fight evil with evil

You have no understanding of evil. Evil doesn't respect the good. There is the kind of evil that comes from ignorance, but there is also the kind of evil that comes from non-ignorance, which cannot be conquered by charity. You have to treat a pig like a pig, a fool like a fool. Proverbs 26:5 "Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes."

Giving pearls to pigs isn't recommended. It is why Christ didn't himself evangelize the Gentiles.

Consider the mexican drug cartels, whom murder men in their thousands, in addition to destroying so many by drugs. Do you think your charity is going to lead them to repent? Only the deceived are ever likely to repent, and not everyone is deceived about the evil that they do. How long does it take to undeceive a muslim? How long would it take you personally to undeceive just one muslim terrorist?

So many missionaries are murdered, every year. Wordwide throughout history, millions of Christians have been put to death by their enemies. Christianity is not found in many parts of the world, because they volunteered to be slaughtered by their enemies. And so today Islam is the fastest growing religion, and will overtake Christianity by 2070. That is partly down to a policy of non-resistance, but mainly due to the problem of Christianity being corrupted from within by those whom would tolerate false doctrines.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-39279631

men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them

Because that's whats coming across from you posts you say only murder is against the law all other killing is legal.
I see it as all killing is wrong and against the laws of love given to us by our Lord.

You need to read what it says Love your enemies you can't love someone then go and kill them our Lord used no violence neither did his apostles they were all persecuted but never used violence we need to follow their example.

I am not saying one shouldn't follow their example. If you want to present yourself as a human sacrifice to criminals, that's your right. But for the apostles, and the early Christians, there was no way of overcoming Roman paganism by any other means than the gospel. It took hundreds of years for Roman paganism to bite the dust, and by the time it did, Christianity had become so corrupt that it was unable to resist both the corrupt teachings that had arisen within itself, and also Islam which was a response to that corruption.

Far be it from me to interfere with anyone's personal calling. That's not what this issue is about. It's about your own judgementalism of others for being in breach of God's law.

I'm saying there is no general biblical law against killing humans in certain situations. You can't project your own calling onto another's view of biblical law. To say that anyone who kills a human has broken the law of love is a perversion of biblical truth, because the law of love does not extend to the so-termed "human rights" of criminals. That's your opinion. The law of love was never a charter for crooks, which you make it out to be.

Of what benefit to anyone is a society given over to crime? You are commanded to pray for rulers, but in your estimation, all rulers are evil perforce just because they inflict evil.  Even God understood that it was antithetical to his purposes for societies given over to crime to continue to exist. It is why the Canaanite societies had to be destroyed. As I have remarked already, you seem to have no greater aspiration for God's honour in the world than to be a Lot living in Sodom and surrounded by crime. Abraham employed a company of armed men to get back his stolen goods and from Abraham came the promises and lineage of the Messiah, not Lot who lived in Sodom.

It is the kind of mentality that sees the whole world as incurably evil except for one's own personal belief system from which originates cults and gnosticism. Sometimes one has to be prepared to learn from others, beyond one's own personal group.

https://bible.com/bible/59/rom.13.10.ESV
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-39279631

[davetaff]

Hi eik
Thank you for your reply it all boils down to what dose man in the image of God look like we have two very good examples Israel and  Christ man ( mankind ) in  the image of God is not one human being check out Genesis it says the man and woman became one in Israel it was Moses the man and Aaron and the priesthood the woman became one in Christ it will de when Christ returns for his bride the Church then Christ and his body will be joined together and become one and this is man in the image of God as described in Genesis.
God is the Father of us all he created the human race and everything else but man in his image is something entirely different and will only be achieved in Christ so creation is ongoing.
Genesis is the whole history of mankind from the beginning to the end of Christs millennial reign.
Man in the image of God will be the whole of the human race who are remain on planet earth at the end of the millennium when God said lets make man in our image he meant mankind as a whole not just one man.

The first Adam God created was contaminated by the angles that came down from heaven and cohabited with the woman this is why the first Adam before the flood had to be destroyed.
Thats why God had to start again to create man in his image first comes the man of flesh Israel then the man of Spirit Christ.

I take it you call all this bunkum because you don't have a better explanation for Genesis

Noah or any other human being on their own is not in the image of God the only one who is is Christ at the end of his millennial reign this is the end of Gods creation

Of course men have distorted the truth no doubt about it thats why I advocate going back to the scriptures and thats why we have so many denominations

I don't think I have added anything to the bible the only thing I have done is interpreted Genesis on a different time scale 7 days from Noah thats 7 thousand years we are somewhere towards the end of the 6th day.
Christs millenium to look forward to.

As for what evil is I only need to look at the news so I repeat you cannot overcome evil with evil only love can overcome evil and as far as I know ther are no get out clauses to the laws of love as given by our Lord.
All the ones you have given are the words of man and can be discarded.

All most everything you say is based on the OT but Paul has this to say.

    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.  The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
2 Corinthians 5:17-‬20 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/2co.5.17-20.ESV         

We who believe are a new creation and as such obey our head which is Christ and his laws are the laws of love with out any get out clauses.
And why should we be worried about dying when we have eternal life.

Love and Peace
Dave

https://bible.com/bible/59/2co.5.17-20.ESV

[eik]

Hi eik
Thank you for your reply it all boils down to what dose man in the image of God look like

I think God said than "mankind was made in the image of God," Gen 1:27.

we have two very good examples Israel and  Christ man ( mankind ) in  the image of God is not one human being check out Genesis it says the man and woman became one in Israel it was Moses the man and Aaron and the priesthood the woman became one in Christ it will de when Christ returns for his bride the Church then Christ and his body will be joined together and become one and this is man in the image of God as described in Genesis.
God is the Father of us all he created the human race and everything else but man in his image is something entirely different and will only be achieved in Christ so creation is ongoing.

Not true. See Gen 1:27.

I've already told you this before: you're confounding the Hebrew word for likeness, which means similitude in an imprecise sort of way, with the Greek words "charakter autos hypostasis" used in Heb 1:3, which means in English "facsimile of his being" which is reserved for Christ. You're trying to create a theology that doesn't exist in scripture, based on a superior gnosis, but is actually an inferior gnosis because you don't grasp the linguistic differences in meaning.

Genesis is the whole history of mankind from the beginning to the end of Christs millennial reign.
Man in the image of God will be the whole of the human race who are remain on planet earth at the end of the millennium when God said lets make man in our image he meant mankind as a whole not just one man.

The first Adam God created was contaminated by the angles that came down from heaven and cohabited with the woman this is why the first Adam before the flood had to be destroyed.
Thats why God had to start again to create man in his image first comes the man of flesh Israel then the man of Spirit Christ.

I take it you call all this bunkum because you don't have a better explanation for Genesis

I call it bunkum because it doesn't fit the facts. Christ was not a "new Adam" but the last Adam, 1Co 15:45.  It's what Christ became that was so different about him (also what he was before he was born i.e. where he came from). See also Heb 2:14-17.

Noah or any other human being on their own is not in the image of God the only one who is is Christ at the end of his millennial reign this is the end of Gods creation

Again, "bunkum."

Of course men have distorted the truth no doubt about it thats why I advocate going back to the scriptures and thats why we have so many denominations

You can't really expect everyone to believe in a theory that the bible never articulates, and is really a case of a pretension to "knowing" better than others. I have learnt one thing in my life, is that I will never be anything more than a participator.  I have made it my ambition to learn from others, but  I'm not learning much from you except a superfluous gnosis that is inconsequential to the more profound meanings in scripture.

I don't think I have added anything to the bible the only thing I have done is interpreted Genesis on a different time scale 7 days from Noah thats 7 thousand years we are somewhere towards the end of the 6th day.

It's just pretensious theories built on sand. Nowhere is one day prophetically interpreted as 1000 years.

Christs millenium to look forward to.

This is, or was, the millennium. May be you missed it because your mind was being taken in by the peculiar sophistry of your denomination?

As for what evil is I only need to look at the news so I repeat you cannot overcome evil with evil only love can overcome evil and as far as I know ther are no get out clauses to the laws of love as given by our Lord.
All the ones you have given are the words of man and can be discarded.

All most everything you say is based on the OT but Paul has this to say.

    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.  The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
2 Corinthians 5:17-‬20 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/2co.5.17-20.ESV         

As I say, I distinguish between calling and judgementalism. Not all of us are called to kill people, but I guess that if you are in a particular circumstance, like Charles Martel was with the armies of Islam at the gates of Europe, then you may well see it as your Christian calling to slay the infidel, which matters of faith your limited worldview cannot encompass, because you (like me) are like Lot living in Sodom.

Yet you have to grasp that on many occasions in the past, Christians have not always had no political power at all, like they do now. Abraham had political power and he used it for God's advantage.Genesis 14:1-24. Also most of the Old Testament characters Adam, Noah etc were also political power players.

We who believe are a new creation and as such obey our head which is Christ and his laws are the laws of love with out any get out clauses.
And why should we be worried about dying when we have eternal life.

May be, because of what I have said: an evil man just continues to do evil. There's nothing charitable about letting antichrists flourish, because their aim is to destroy the gospel. You seem to have a naivety about the compass of God's involvement on earth: it is with the entire human race. Self-righteousness in declining to contending with evil will not be thanked by future generations. The Lot in Sodom mentality may ensure the salvation of your own group, as the antitype of one "escaping through the flames" 1 Corinthians 3:15; but I think you need to develop broader horizons outside your peculiar group to be effective.

That's not to say that evangelism cannot be effective. It is to say that God is interested in the adminstratation of justice, and that if it is not administered right, then the gospel is defamed, per Roms 2:24. What use is a Christian who won't contend with evil, and whom always shrinks back from dealing with it? Consider why Saul was replaced by David. The toleration of sin by so-termed Christians in the modern era brings the gospel itself into disrepute, annulling any evangelical benefits. Mat 23:15. It is essential therefore that evil is not just seen as academically evil, but as "deserving of death" in every sense, and on specific occasions, resulting in it where God enacts it whether justly or unjustly (e.g. Luk 13:1-5).

https://bible.com/bible/59/2co.5.17-20.ESV

[davetaff]

Hi eik
Thank you for your reply as for Christ being in the image of God.

     2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

 3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high     

So there is no doubt that Christ is the image of God and if we compare Christ with Israel there are a few simualetries they both went into Egypt the both came into the wilderness Israel had 12 tribes Christ had 12 apostles the tribe of Dan was rejected the 2 sons of Joseph were taken in.
Judus was rejected and 2 others were taken in all this cannot be coincidence.
So I believe I have proven that Israel and Christ are both created in the image of God and that man in the image of God is not one man.

        26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them           

Take note of verse 26 the words our and let them which to me indicates more than one.

I see your back to changing the words of scripture to back up what you say.

       
    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation     

We are in Christ who is a new creation and he is the last Adam it stands to reason he was created as a new Adam.

I love it when people use words like bunkum thank you it means they don't have a better interpretation for the scriptures I give to support what I say.

Nobody has to believe a word I say but we should believe what the scriptures say and the things I say are based on scripture for example

       Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure       

Much of what I say is based on this verse its quite simple the beginning is Genesis the end is Christ the man in Gods image and in Genesis God tells us what he will achieve that end result.

          It's just pretensious theories built on sand. Nowhere is one day prophetically interpreted as 1000 years         

         2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day       [ /color]

Thats good enough for me.

     This is, or was, the millennium. May be you missed it because your mind was being taken in by the peculiar sophistry of your denomination     

The millenium will begin when Christ returns for his bride and they will reign here on earth for 1000 years.

       Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

     Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth           

Love and Peace
Dave

[eik]

Hi eik
Thank you for your reply as for Christ being in the image of God.

     2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

 3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high     

So there is no doubt that Christ is the image of God and if we compare Christ with Israel there are a few simualetries they both went into Egypt the both came into the wilderness Israel had 12 tribes Christ had 12 apostles the tribe of Dan was rejected the 2 sons of Joseph were taken in.
Judus was rejected and 2 others were taken in all this cannot be coincidence.

There is scope for disagreement. There may be postulated two apostate tribes in 1 Kings 12:25-33.

    "After seeking advice, the king [Jeroboam, of the Northern Tribes] made two golden calves.  He said to the people, ?It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem.  Here are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.?  One he set up in Bethel [which was controlled by the tribe of Ephraim, Jeroboam?s tribe], and the other in Dan.  And this thing became a sin; the people came to worship the one at Bethel and went as far as Dan to worship the other."

Both Dan and Ephraim are seen as apostate. They are both left out of the  Revelation 7:5-8 tribes list. The "tribe of Joseph" potentially refers to the significant numbers of Ephraimites whom weren't ba'al worshippers, and whom fled south to the Kingdom of Judah where the Assyrians invaded. May be they weren't idolators and were entitled to be called "Joseph."

Just speculating. You can push coincidences too far. If you do, there is no didactic value in it.

So I believe I have proven that Israel and Christ are both created in the image of God and that man in the image of God is not one man.

I think we knew that from Gen. 1:27 without your elaborate proof.

        26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 27  So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them           

Take note of verse 26 the words our and let them which to me indicates more than one.

God sitting in the counsel of his angels, by whom he made mankind. It was angels that did the donkey work, you can be sure, as they did it with the first covenant. Remember what Heb 1 says about angels.

I see your back to changing the words of scripture to back up what you say.

       
    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation     

We are in Christ who is a new creation and he is the last Adam it stands to reason he was created as a new Adam.

You're the one changing the words of scripture. It doesn't say "he is a new Adam." It said "he is a new creation" by which is meant a creation of the spirit of God (new birth is spiritual birth only cf. Nicodemus).

Nothing that says a new Adam is formed from a person spiritually reborn. That is definitely gnostic. Adam means "of the earth." Rather what is "born" spiritually is not Adam but "spirit," i.e. Christ, even life giving Spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:45 "So it is written: ?The first man Adam became a living being?; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit."

Why is Jesus the "last Adam?" Remember what I said about the OT being about potentates. The last Adam, the last "king" appointed by God of the Adamic type of OT potentates, is Jesus Christ.

In 1 Corinthians 15:22, Paul argues that "as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive." So you're confusing Christ with a new Adam.

You're saying "all will be made alive in a new Adam." No. All will be made alive in Christ. All will become the Adam that Christ was, and became beyond Adam, i.e. a life giving spirit.

Besides which, we still retain our Adamic creation, as we all die and also remain subject to the moral law imposed on the old Adam. No new Adam. That's exactly what the bible doesn't teach. It's what the gnostics / feminists / antinomians teach. They teach that the moral law no longers applies because "we're a new Adam." Bunkum.

Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

...and not "all one in a new Adam."

"New Adam" is not acceptable biblical teaching.

I love it when people use words like bunkum thank you it means they don't have a better interpretation for the scriptures I give to support what I say.

Nobody has to believe a word I say but we should believe what the scriptures say and the things I say are based on scripture for example

       Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure       

Much of what I say is based on this verse its quite simple the beginning is Genesis the end is Christ the man in Gods image and in Genesis God tells us what he will achieve that end result.

I don't disagree. I disagree with the journey of words you propose, such as "new Adam" (your words not found in the bible. I searched for "new Adam" it came back with "Sorry, we didn?t find any results for your search.").

         2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day       [ /color]

Thats good enough for me.

Is the context prophetic? No. It describes how God waits for things to happen.

The millenium will begin when Christ returns for his bride and they will reign here on earth for 1000 years.

Again pure invention. God reigns from heaven. Says so innumerable times.

       Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

     Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth           

A thousand years is a long time. Those whom are resurrected, are resurrected in heaven. Luke 14: "14 Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous. 15When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, ?Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.?"

Where is the kingdom of God? John 18:36 "Jesus answered, ?My kingdom is not of this world; if it were, My servants would fight to prevent My arrest by the Jews. But now My kingdom is not of this realm.?

[davetaff]

Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

   There is scope for disagreement. There may be postulated two apostate tribes in 1 Kings 12:25-33       

Thank you for pointing that out I had missed that but thinking about it it makes sense Matthias was chose by lot Paul was chosen by Christ so I believe Paul makes up the 12 apostles.

       I think we knew that from Gen. 1:27 without your elaborate proof 

What I write is for all those that read our posts and what you write is useful to many even if we disagree.

God sitting in the counsel of his angels, by whom he made mankind. It was angels that did the donkey work, you can be sure, as they did it with the first covenant. Remember what Heb 1 says about angels         

We know what man in Gods image it is Christ united with his bride the church so it stands to reason that the Father would be the same the Father the head the angels his body his woman his helper.

   You're the one changing the words of scripture. It doesn't say "he is a new Adam." It said "he is a new creation" by which is meant a creation of the spirit of God (new birth is spiritual birth only cf. Nicodemus           

The scriptures do say that Christ is the last Adam

    1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit

   Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil               

So Christ is the last Adam and he began his creation as a man of flesh who became a living spirit through what he suffered.

Then we have.
    Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.  The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/2co.5.17.ESV         

So we are a new creation in Christ and Christ is the last Adam.

The kingdom of God will be here on earth the kingdom of God is where God is and he will come down to earth and reign from Jerusalem

    3  And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

 4  And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more         

And the words of Job

     
     Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth         

What will happen after the millenium we are not told only God will create a new heaven and earth.

Love and Peace
Dave




https://bible.com/bible/59/2co.5.17.ESV