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Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #64 on: March 14, 2021, 06:17:22 PM »

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply more smoke and mirrors I like to keep things simple sin is breaking Gods laws but one must know what the law says to break it.
I think you'll find that God made the laws of nature also.

The nations around Israel did not have the law so could not break Gods law as explained by St Paul.
Let's look at it this way every one from Adam to the present day has sinned and God has put everyone to death ( sleep ) so the requirements of the law have been met by God.
Not forgetting if you break one law you break the whole law the only one who did not break the law was Jesus.
I regret your yearning for simplicity is not shared by the bible. Rom 1 & 2 clearly explain the concept of sin from the point of view of both nature and conscience. So the nations could certainly break the laws of God, and it is why Phineas was commended for putting to death the Moabite woman as well as the Israelite man.

I seem to recall remarking on tunnel vision before. Certainly the written Israelite code refined the natural law in far more detail, and enhanced the concept of sin for the benefit of children of God. But knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong and sin existed in all ancient peoples, whether Mongols, Romans, etc, and was inherited from Adam. It is quite wrong to suggest that no-one outside of Israel knew the elementary principles of human morality

Very true but on the other hand coverted sinners pose no threat and can be an asset and if you kill someone you break the law.
Unfortunately converted sinners are in a sizeable minority. Do you want to be like Lot in Sodom? Clearly the seat of Moses is entitled to put to death as it was given that power by God himself.

You can't allow a whole society to be corrupted just so that you can boast of converting one sinner who would have otherwise been put to death. In any event, numerous condemned persons have converted prior to their executions. Quite common in the USA.

If the nations before Israel were trembling in fear they would not have been able to put up much of a fight which makes their massacre an even worse crime.
So you're calling God a criminal who destroyed the walls to facilitate the massacre?

You have said Christ was not around when Israel entered the promised land but Christ has been with us from the very beginning of creation it was through him and for him all things have been created and if what you say is true how could Job say the following.

        25  For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

 26  And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: note

 27  Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.     

Obviously. When I referred to Christ not being around, I also included the salvation that came by faith in him. You seem not to grasp that the gospel of Jesus Christ wasn't around before he was born. Then it was a different regime.

Sinners forfeit the love of God I thought God loved sinners so much that he sent his only begotten son to die an horrific death on the cross for all sinners from Adam to the present day God has put all sinners to death according to the law so we don't have to and he will raise them up again on the last day.
Jhn 3:36 "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath remains on him."

God has loved sinners in Christ but those who reject Christ reject the love of God.

God has not put any sinners to death according to the law. He removed the guilt of their sins, but they are quite capable of rejecting the gift.

Baptism is to be reborn to be reborn mean you have to die first.
Not the same as bodily execution.

Interesting you should use this scripture

      18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.       


Who was the only one to fulfil the law it was Christ.

Don't get me wrong I don't condone crime in any form and as you say the state of the world at the present time is appalling which only proves crime and punishment dose not work but the following will work.

   37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

 38  This is the first and great commandment.

 39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets         

You have discounted: 2 Ti 3:1-5 "But understand this, that in the last days difficult times will come.....They will maintain the outward appearance of religion but will have repudiated its power. So avoid people like these."

People who don't believe in God's law diminish the gospel. If you don't believe you deserve death for your sins, and that such death is not merely academic, but real and belongs to the seat of Moses by right, then what have you been saved from? So religion becomes devalued because there was never any punishment to begin with.

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Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #65 on: March 15, 2021, 01:40:35 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

Quote
    I think you'll find that God made the laws of nature also       

Do you have any scripture to support this dose it matter if you break any of Gods laws you break the whole law and the penalty for that is death an God has put the whole human race to death so we have paid the penalty for our sins but if we repent and believe in God we will be raised up on the last day.

We must realise that the law is still in force nothing has gone away and the best way to comply with the law is through love.
Then we have

      ?Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death.
Leviticus 24:17 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/lev.24.17.ESV     


Quote
      Obviously. When I referred to Christ not being around, I also included the salvation that came by faith in him. You seem not to grasp that the gospel of Jesus Christ wasn't around before he was born. Then it was a different regime     

We need to ask ourselves why did God create Israel the man in Gods image was it Israels job to spread the word of God throughout the world as the last Adam has done was there any big difference between  the message of Israel and the message of Christ.

 Love and Peace
Dave
https://bible.com/bible/59/lev.24.17.ESV

Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #66 on: March 15, 2021, 06:13:16 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

Do you have any scripture to support this dose it matter if you break any of Gods laws you break the whole law and the penalty for that is death an God has put the whole human race to death so we have paid the penalty for our sins but if we repent and believe in God we will be raised up on the last day.

We must realise that the law is still in force nothing has gone away and the best way to comply with the law is through love.
Act 17:24 "God that made the world and all things therein,"

Breaking the whole law was relevant where justification was by conforming to the letter of the law, rather than by faith. Otherwise there is a definite distinction between the sundry laws that may be broken, only some of which occasioned the death penalty. The sins of the Canaanites were sins that did. They were corporately guilty.

God has not put "the whole human race to death." Such a proposition is absurd. Rather, Rom 9:22 "What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath?prepared for destruction?"

Quote
We must realise that the law is still in force
Justification is not through law any longer so large parts of the ceremonial law have been made redundant for those justified by faith.

I agree with your last sentiment.

What has any of this got to do with my post? I was deferring to the criminal aspects of the Levitical law and its punishments, which I agree are not in force in our current legal systems, but this doesn't mean that they are not an innate possibility for anyone sitting in the seat of Moses, such as the judges under the Torah, and those who choose to wage war against idolators, such as perhaps the regime of Oliver Cromwell of recent history.

If you prohibited idolatry, adultery and witchcraft in this day and age, you would likely have a civil war on your hands, and then you would likely have to start implementing far more punitive legal punishments than currently exist in a pluralistic society growing increasingly decadent with the years.

Then we have

      ?Whoever takes a human life shall surely be put to death.
Leviticus 24:17 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/lev.24.17.ESV     

The context here is murder by smiting (nāḵa), not muṯ (Heb) meaning put to death. See the absurdity of denying the legitimacy of capital punishment where in Exo 21:12, "he that smiteth (nāḵa) shall be put to death (muṯ)."


We need to ask ourselves why did God create Israel the man in Gods image was it Israels job to spread the word of God throughout the world as the last Adam has done was there any big difference between  the message of Israel and the message of Christ.

 Love and Peace
Dave
If it was Israel's job to establish and preserve a theocracy, it failed due to disobedience. The command to Israel was to obey God's commands Deut 11:27 to receive the blessing, and to refrain from disobedience which would and did occasion curses Deut 11:28. It was no part of Israel's specific duty to evangelize the world under the Old Covenant, but God is glorified in obedience, so had Israel been obedient, God would have been glorified in Israel's actions (rather than in its preaching).

In fact the Jewish diaspora did have a kind of evangelistic effect.

What you're failing to grasp is that preaching has to be backed up by consent to the holiness and inviolability of the law of God, and God himself.  The law was intended to reflect the rule of God, so was inflexible as to its non-toleration of sin. If you're not preaching a holy God that cannot exist in the presence of sin, then what god are you preaching? Does your God tolerate sin for the sake of "not putting people to death"? Is that the reason that sin is tolerated? I suggest not. The reason why sin appears to be tolerated by God is to make "some" people holy, but certainly not such malefactors who continue on unrepentant in their sins. As Jesus taught, "unless you repent you will perish."


Again I am not sure how this relevant to this thread.

https://bible.com/bible/59/lev.24.17.ESV

Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #67 on: March 16, 2021, 01:10:26 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply the scriptures say

  For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.
James 2:10 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/jas.2.10.ESV           


So as sinners we break the whole law and as such we incur the death penalty we were all born and we all die but our loving God has given us a way out through belief in Jesus Christ.

If we break the law we do not show love to our neighbours love is the fulfillment of the law the whole law is still applicable if we keep the law we do no harm to our neighbour but the best way to comply with the law is through love.

Quote
    Justification is not through law any longer so large parts of the ceremonial law have been made redundant for those justified by faith           

     For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Matthew 5:18 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/mat.5.18.ESV       


So nothing in the law will be made redundant Christ came to fulfil the law.

Quote
     The context here is murder by smiting (nāḵa), not muṯ (Heb) meaning put to death. See the absurdity of denying the legitimacy of capital punishment where in Exo 21:12, "he that smiteth (nāḵa) shall be put to death (muṯ)     

As you know I don't believe in changing the words of scripture if you change one word means you can change all the words and end up with loads of different bibles.

Love and Peace
Dave
https://bible.com/bible/59/jas.2.10.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/mat.5.18.ESV

Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #68 on: March 16, 2021, 06:45:32 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply the scriptures say

  For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it.
James 2:10 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/jas.2.10.ESV           


So as sinners we break the whole law and as such we incur the death penalty we were all born and we all die but our loving God has given us a way out through belief in Jesus Christ.
No, because the "law" in the sense of the "whole law" only relates to justification by the Levitical Law or Torah. Death was a "penalty" for those who sinned against nature or the natural law, i.e. the moral law or the law of conscience, e.g. hypocrisy. It was instituted long before the law of Moses, back in Gen 6:1 and before when Adam sinned.

If we break the law we do not show love to our neighbours love is the fulfillment of the law the whole law is still applicable if we keep the law we do no harm to our neighbour but the best way to comply with the law is through love.
I think I concurred with you on that one before. But that is not to prevent the administration of justice in society.

     For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Matthew 5:18 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/mat.5.18.ESV       


So nothing in the law will be made redundant Christ came to fulfil the law.
The fulfilment of the law created a degree of redundancy in the covenantal laws. Per  Heb 8:13 "By calling this covenant ?new,? he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."

As you know I don't believe in changing the words of scripture if you change one word means you can change all the words and end up with loads of different bibles.
If the Hebrew uses three different words for killing a human being, and you translated them all by "kill" then you're not making the best sense of the bible. Similarly the Greek uses four words for "love." If you won't distinguish them, you wont make best sense of the bible.

Not making best sense of the bible is the problem I have with your brand of theology.

https://bible.com/bible/59/jas.2.10.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/mat.5.18.ESV

Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #69 on: March 17, 2021, 01:12:44 PM »
No, because the "law" in the sense of the "whole law" only relates to justification by the Levitical Law or Torah. Death was a "penalty" for those who sinned against nature or the natural law, i.e. the moral law or the law of conscience, e.g. hypocrisy. It was instituted long before the law of Moses, back in Gen 6:1 and before when Adam sinned.

     Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. View more

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law   

           Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come         

 A
Everyone from Adam to the present time has died not sure what you mean by different laws I'm only looking at the law given to Moses.
We need to consider that the law was given to the man in Gods image Israel and they failed to obey it they even committed murder when they killed our Lord and the penalty for that was death and this was carried out when they failed to be a nation.
And did they commit adultery  when the worshipped other Gods is there more to the law than the surface reading.
.
The fulfilment of the law created a degree of redundancy in the covenantal laws. Per  Heb 8:13 "By calling this covenant ?new,? he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."
If the Hebrew uses three different words for killing a human being, and you translated them all by "kill" then you're not making the best sense of the bible. Similarly the Greek uses four words for "love." If you won't distinguish them, you wont make best sense of the bible.

The bringing in of a new covenant dose not negate the following

   Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled       

Not making best sense of the bible is the problem I have with your brand of theology.

If you mean changing words to suit theology then I do not believe its a good thing I have to believe that The God of all creation can create a book in a language I can understand and I don't need to change the words.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #70 on: March 18, 2021, 04:16:21 AM »
No, because the "law" in the sense of the "whole law" only relates to justification by the Levitical Law or Torah. Death was a "penalty" for those who sinned against nature or the natural law, i.e. the moral law or the law of conscience, e.g. hypocrisy. It was instituted long before the law of Moses, back in Gen 6:1 and before when Adam sinned.

     Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. View more

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law   

           Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come         

 A
Everyone from Adam to the present time has died not sure what you mean by different laws I'm only looking at the law given to Moses.
Not grasping the wider nature of law itself is an obvious part of the issues with your doctrine. You live in a  simplistic and idealized world, but the world is rather more complex and nuanced than you imagine.

Note we have the "similitude of Adam's transgression" so we have Paul admitting a transgression of law separate from the Levitical law. Law in a general sense is what God imposes on mankind, whether morally or physically. Adam had his own law, not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He was only to know the good. He chose to know the evil, and so he was cursed and was appointed to die.

Yet he was also a type of men who sinned not just in the sense of the law specific to Adam, but in the sense of the breaking of the natural law or the moral law, which Paul expounds in Roms 1 and 2.  For Adam went against his own conscience too.

You can't take Roms 5 to the exclusion of Roms 1 & 2. You have to take both together to see how they work together.

So the reason that all men died was because they broke the law of conscience, or the natural law, as Paul says, and not just they broke a written code given by God, as Adam himself had done. Adam was in every sense a type of Israel. Contrariwise I think you say Israel was sui generis son, a new "son of God," not in the Adamic sense? Isn't that right? Yet it is clear that Adam was himself a son of God, as Luke 3:38 makes clear.

Israel was a son of God in the Adamic sense, because chosen by God to have God's authority on earth. That is what a son means, to be given the authority of God, in some sense,. Israel was given a written law, just as Adam was. Israel broke that law, just as Adam did. In every sense Israel was like Adam. The law worketh wrath for Adam and wrath for Israel.

We need to consider that the law was given to the man in Gods image Israel and they failed to obey it they even committed murder when they killed our Lord and the penalty for that was death and this was carried out when they failed to be a nation.
And did they commit adultery  when the worshipped other Gods is there more to the law than the surface reading.
Sometimes adultery is used in prophetic language synonymously with idolatry, but not to indicate a prosecution of the Israelites under the law of adultery, although idolatry was usually synonymous with lapses in morals.

The fulfilment of the law created a degree of redundancy in the covenantal laws. Per  Heb 8:13 "By calling this covenant ?new,? he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."
If the Hebrew uses three different words for killing a human being, and you translated them all by "kill" then you're not making the best sense of the bible. Similarly the Greek uses four words for "love." If you won't distinguish them, you wont make best sense of the bible.
The bringing in of a new covenant dose not negate the following

   Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled       
Yes and no.

The old testament covental laws are no longer in force because they have been fulfilled for all time in Christ. They cannot be broken because they are fulfilled. In the sense that they have been fulfilled they are obsolete and redundant.

It's like a law to paint your house white. Once you've painted your house white, the law becomes redundant for you.

Yet I can agree that the old testament covenental laws are still practically relevant, as Paul says, in teaching about the new covenant. They are useful for instruction.

Not making best sense of the bible is the problem I have with your brand of theology.

If you mean changing words to suit theology then I do not believe its a good thing I have to believe that The God of all creation can create a book in a language I can understand and I don't need to change the words.
As I have pointed out on so many occasions, the words of God are not written in English but in Greek and Hebrew. To idolize the English language, which went through many changes in between the first English translation of the bible by Wyclif in the 13th century, and the original NIV translation in the 20th. For you to select a series of translations from the 16th and 17th centuries has no rational basis.

But there is more at stake. For most sensible people can concede that "kill" in "Do not kill" means "Do not murder." The reason you can't admit is because you are promulgating a denominational doctrine which says "we do not have a right  to take a life." That's not what the commandment says. It's what your doctrine says.

One of the real issues here is that you won't come clean about  this. There's just no point in having a ridiculous conversation about "modifying the word of God" when what you really mean is, "you're never going to depart from your (JW / Brethren style) pacifist doctrine."  I have empathy with pacifists on many occasions. Yet when you're faced with anti-Christian tyranny,  such a doctrine reeks of uncharitable cowardice and the surrender of morality.

Pacifism isn't biblical. Even Paul appealed to Caesar. He didn't condemn the Roman soldiers for being soldiers any more than Christ did. Christ did not criticize the sentence handed out to the thieves crucified with him. You have demonstrated in this thread you would be prepared to recreate the Old Testament to cater for your non-biblical pacifist doctrine, which is theologically unaccepatable.

What I find also unacceptable is that you won't acknowledge your denomination (some JW or Closed Brethren group) that demands you adhere to such a doctrine. For you're not going to get anywhere in the truth stakes by asserting the bible teaches pacifism. It doesn't, but individual denominations do.

Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #71 on: March 18, 2021, 01:55:12 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

 Yes you are right I have a very simplistic view it comes of believing what the scriptures say and not what men say it says and not changing the words.     

        Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever             [ /color]

As we see for Adam to be in the image of God he needed to know good and evil its what he did with the knowledge.
I believe that the law given to Moses is the tree of knowledge of this creation.

You speak of other laws besides the laws given to Moses where can I find a list of these laws in the bible.

Israel is the first Adam of this creation which began with Noah the first Adam died in the flood.
When Israel received the law they received the knowledge of good and evil and in so doing became like God then it becomes a question of what they would do with that knowledge and we have the same choice they and we have to choose of our own free will shall we choose the good or the evil Israel chose to break the law and has paid the penalty.

Quote
   Sometimes adultery is used in prophetic language synonymously with idolatry, but not to indicate a prosecution of the Israelites under the law of adultery, although idolatry was usually synonymous with lapses in morals         

If you break one law you break the whole law.

Quote
   The old testament covental laws are no longer in force because they have been fulfilled for all time in Christ. They cannot be broken because they are fulfilled. In the sense that they have been fulfilled they are obsolete and redundant           

So are you saying I can kill someone without breaking the law the Christ fulfilled the law through obedience is not in question in so doing he shows us what we should be doing and our Lord made it even harder to comply with the law.

       21  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: note

 22  But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire     


Quote
  But there is more at stake. For most sensible people can concede that "kill" in "Do not kill" means "Do not murder." The reason you can't admit is because you are promulgating a denominational doctrine which says "we do not have a right  to take a life." That's not what the commandment says. It's what your doctrine says           

So what you are saying we can do All the killing we like so long as we do not murder we can commit all sorts of atrocities in war and God will approve and we won't break the law the law what about this law

     Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself

         43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

 44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you           


As I have said before I don't have a denomination other than Christian belonging to the body of Christ is my one  ambition and the best way to achieve this is to follow the commands of Christ to love but you can't love your neighbor when your blowing his head of or dropping atomic bombs on him.

Love and Peace
Dave

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