Murder,kill,destroy

[eik]

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Hi
The point is that all credit should go to God it was through him that Israel possessed the promised land.

Love and Peace
Dave

Yet that's not to say that they didn't have to destroy the Canannites in the flesh, and in person; and further, that if they hadn't done it they wouldn't have continued in God's good favour.

[davetaff]

Yet that's not to say that they didn't have to destroy the Canannites in the flesh, and in person; and further, that if they hadn't done it they wouldn't have continued in God's good favour.

Hi eik
Thank you for your reply the question here is what were the weapons Israel used did they use weapons of war killing everything in sight babies small children woman and men what terrible  carnage and all this on the word of the God of Love.
Or was the weapon they used the sword of the word of God is this what Israel was meant to do to spread Gods word is this true of both the sons of God.

Love and Peace
Dave

[eik]

Hi eik
Thank you for your reply the question here is what were the weapons Israel used did they use weapons of war killing everything in sight babies small children woman and men what terrible  carnage and all this on the word of the God of Love.
Or was the weapon they used the sword of the word of God is this what Israel was meant to do to spread Gods word is this true of both the sons of God.

That may be your question, but it's not a question raised by the Old Testament which makes it quite clear that the Canaanites were too reprobate to be converted. The Israelites only killed the women when they had to. Otherwise they took them as wives Deu 21:11.

Clearly the weapons they used against their enemies were not the word of God (there were no preaching platforms in those days anyway) although doubtless there was the odd covert to Judaism from the Canaanite population and such is clear from the bible itself. Doubtless there were apostatizers from the Canaanite religion who went over to Israel, such as Rahab.

The "word of God in love" was not regarded much by the Canannites when, the "word of God in love" commanded the death penalty for practitioners of the Canaanite religion, and it was the Canaanites whom engaged the Israelites in battle in the first instance often, although not always. In any event as the bible says, the Canaanites were quite (i.e. very) keen on converting the Israelites to their religion.

cf. the Moabite's women's seduction of the Israelites Num 25, and the actions of one Phineas whom I have already reminded you of. This is also evidence that the Canaanite women were by no means sinless, and so those whom had born Canaanite children were usually put to death along with the men (Numbers 31:17, Judges 21:11).

The Israelite experience reminds us of the secular religion of these days, who proponents are very keen to make converts. For militant atheism, or ba'al worship, is seen in this day also. They have no ear for the gospel, and would far rather you convert to their religion of pacifism, law worship and toleration of delinquency. The apostles make it clear that the votaries of this kind of religion deserve death, as they did in OT times (Roms 1:32). The modern Labour party and Greens etc are proponents of the modern Ba'al worship religion (with only a few exceptions) with the Tories close behind (with slightly more exceptions).

[davetaff]

Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

      That may be your question, but it's not a question raised by the Old Testament which makes it quite clear that the Canaanites were too reprobate to be converted. The Israelites only killed the women when they had to. Otherwise they took them as wives Deu 21:11       

The answer to the question is that God loved the sinful human race so much that he sent his only begotten son into the world to die an horrific death for the sins of the world.
Are you saying that every canaanite men woman and children had sinned so much that the could not be forgiven and converted.
The problem I have is if the Israelites committed this genocide on Gods orders it puts him on a par with Hitler  or any other despot but God loves us how could he do things like this.

Of course we have been killed through baptism we have died to our old sinful life and been reborn into the body of Christ so did the Israelites have to do something similar.
Was Israel meant to convert the nations before them is this what God meant when he said he would go before them was it to make the nations receptive to Israels message about the God of all creation.

So how should we put to death the unbeliever with the word of God or a gun I say with the word of God.
Then the question is are God's instructions  to the first Adam ( Israel ) the same as to the last Adam ( Christ ) if so the only killing permitted is through conversion.

Love and Peace
Dave

[eik]

Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

The answer to the question is that God loved the sinful human race so much that he sent his only begotten son into the world to die an horrific death for the sins of the world.
Are you saying that every canaanite men woman and children had sinned so much that the could not be forgiven and converted.
The problem I have is if the Israelites committed this genocide on Gods orders it puts him on a par with Hitler  or any other despot but God loves us how could he do things like this.

There was no Christ around in those days. It would be another 1500 years until he made his appearance on earth. I feel you're trying to project 21st century values onto peoples who lived hand to mouth 3500 years ago. Genocide is a 20th century term describing sins committed other than in warfare and using mass killing devices such as guns, which of course never existed back in those days.

That's not to say one could not technically commit genocide, but the point you're missing in that these Canaanites were guilty of sins commanding the death penalty under Israelite law, in any event, just for fighting against the Israelites. They were also notorious sinners in terms of idolatry and sexual immorality and worship of false gods.

So "genocide" would not apply because (a) such was warfare, (b) the resources of the conquerors were very limited and had no ability to keep safely or provide for prisoners of war, (c) the conquered were inherently dangerous and would be expected to rise up and kill the Israelites whenever they could, (d) the conquered were notorious sinners. It was "kill or be killed." Such was the primitive law of warfare in those days.

Of course we have been killed through baptism we have died to our old sinful life and been reborn into the body of Christ so did the Israelites have to do something similar.
Was Israel meant to convert the nations before them is this what God meant when he said he would go before them was it to make the nations receptive to Israels message about the God of all creation.

There was no concept of conversion back then. Moses had difficulty enough converting the Israelites. In those days it was all about demonstrating God was on your side by winning battles. If you wanted to demonstrate your regard for the Israelite God, you became a Jew or allied to them.

No one back then had the resources for conversion. It was all about existence. All notorious sinners were executed. What we're dealing with, in ancient Israel, is a theocracy, not a pluralistic society. It was never God's intention to fashion Israel as a monument to pluralism.

The concept of the pluralistic society didn't exist, like it does today. There weren't the resources to control it. Such a society would have rapidly disintegrated into civil war, as it did on numerous occasions, in any event, whenever the people turned aside to worship false gods. Ancient societies were very brittle and inflexible: they had no resources to tolerate significant amounts of crime, like modern societies do.

So how should we put to death the unbeliever with the word of God or a gun I say with the word of God.
Then the question is are God's instructions  to the first Adam ( Israel ) the same as to the last Adam ( Christ ) if so the only killing permitted is through conversion.

It all depends on whether you sit in the seat of Moses. Christians have frequently sat in the seat of Moses in the last 2000 years, and they were unafraid to execute malefactors under the same criminal law as applied in the Old Testament. If you don't sit in the seat of Moses, the unbeliever can only be converted, tolerated, or shunned, because the Christian has, in general, no license from God to usurp the power of the magistrate unless the magistrate commands disobedience to God's commands.

[davetaff]

Hi eik
Thank you for your reply but how could the Canaanites break the law only Israel had the law and St Paul tells us

       Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. View more

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law           

So the Canaanites could not sin they did not know what sin was.

So was it up to Israel to spread the word of Gods law among the heathen in so doing creating peace in the world for we know the law shall not disappear we have just been given a better way of complying with it through love.
And going around killing all unbelievers is not showing Gods love.

The conversion of them days was conversation to the law of God through obedience to the letter of the law.
So dose complying with the law kill the sinner in the same way as baptism kills us.

All physical killing in the name of God is wrong the law says though shalt not kill  and thats what it means the only way we can kill a sinner is with the sword which is the word of God.
The only way to overcome evil is with love you can never overcome evil with evil you only create more evil.

Love and Peace
Dave

[eik]

Hi eik
Thank you for your reply but how could the Canaanites break the law only Israel had the law and St Paul tells us

       Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. View more

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law           

So the Canaanites could not sin they did not know what sin was.

There are different types of sin. There is sin defined by written law, but also sins against nature (or natural law):

1Co 6:18 "Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body."

cf.  Rom 1:26 "For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature."

Roms 1 is all about sins against natural law. It's not confined to immorality.

Moreover Rom 1:32 "....who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."

Sins against natural law are deserving of death for that very reason alone, and what is against  natural law is known by everyone, since the time of Adam and Eve, because nature is not hidden. Also the law began with Adam and Eve, so certain laws predated Moses.

Sins against natural law, Adamic law and hypocrisy, which is not so much a legal sin as a moral sin intuitive to everyone, is I suspect the reason for Rom 5:14 "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come."

So was it up to Israel to spread the word of Gods law among the heathen in so doing creating peace in the world for we know the law shall not disappear we have just been given a better way of complying with it through love.

The best way of spreading God's word was by enhancing Israel's reputation by keeping to the theocratic mandate. One reason why Israel was enabled to conquer the promised land was because all the other nations were afraid of its reputation:

Jos 5:1 "So it was, when all the kings of the Amorites who were on the west side of the Jordan, and all the kings of the Canaanites who were by the sea, heard that the LORD had dried up the waters of the Jordan from before the children of Israel until we[fn] had crossed over, that their heart melted; and there was no spirit in them any longer because of the children of Israel."

And going around killing all unbelievers is not showing Gods love.

As I have pointed out previously, unconverted sinners are very dangerous. That is why they had to be killed. They still are. So many people have been killed or suffered serious harm by trying to do good to reprobates, only for them to turn around and do them harm.

Also you appear to have not taken on board that many are not interested in repenting, because they despise people like you, who think that the just punishments of the law should be abolished to enable them to continue in sin. Did it ever occur to you why there has recently been this explosion in immorality in society? Because the law that was formerly in place has been abolished.

Also you appear to have not taken on board what I have already said: there was no capacity in ancient societies to accomodate sinners. Sinners had to die to ensure self-preservation of those who weren't sinners. Sinners forfeit the love of God. They can only claim mercy, but it is not a right (cf. our penal system). Mercy only came by Jesus Christ. He wasn't around 1500 years before he was born. Mercy was shown to Israel as a nation.

The conversion of them days was conversation to the law of God through obedience to the letter of the law.
So dose complying with the law kill the sinner in the same way as baptism kills us.

I don't think baptism and execution are comparable.

All physical killing in the name of God is wrong the law says though shalt not kill  and thats what it means the only way we can kill a sinner is with the sword which is the word of God.

There you go re-writing the old testament. You're contradicting scripture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_capital_crimes_in_the_Torah

I don't recognize your statement as orthodox. So what denomination do you really espouse?

The only way to overcome evil is with love you can never overcome evil with evil you only create more evil.

If someone is punished under the law, it is a punishment that person has chosen and the law is exalted by its being carried out. You destroy the whole concept of God's law by denigrating the punishments of the law. As Christ said, Mat 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

The only concession to your point of view I would make is that it is God himself who prefers mercy to death Ez 33:11, but that it is qualified by the matter than continuing sins and a refusal to repent, which are directly related to the gravity of the sin, may of necessity (i.e. due to the need to maintain the integrity of the law and social cohesion and a sense of right and wrong) disqualify a person from mercy under the law.

Don't forget that Paul was shown mercy because he acted in ignorance. Crimes in clear cognisance of their wrongdoing, such as relates to the criminal law, must attract a due measure of punishment in any society in which God is honoured, otherwise society will simply be overrun by crime, as it is today. Not all sin is in ignorance. Much of is culpable, wanton, deliberate, unrepented of, and deserving of no mercy whatsoever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_capital_crimes_in_the_Torah

[davetaff]

Hi eik
Thank you for your reply more smoke and mirrors I like to keep things simple sin is breaking Gods laws but one must know what the law says to break it.
The nations around Israel did not have the law so could not break Gods law as explained by St Paul.
Let's look at it this way every one from Adam to the present day has sinned and God has put everyone to death ( sleep ) so the requirements of the law have been met by God.
Not forgetting if you break one law you break the whole law the only one who did not break the law was Jesus.

    As I have pointed out previously, unconverted sinners are very dangerous. That is why they had to be killed. They still are. So many people have been killed or suffered serious harm by trying to do good to reprobates, only for them to turn around and do them harm           

Very true but on the other hand coverted sinners pose no threat and can be an asset and if you kill someone you break the law.

     Jos 5:1 "So it was, when all the kings of the Amorites who were on the west side of the Jordan, and all the kings of the Canaanites who were by the sea, heard that the LORD had dried up the waters of the Jordan from before the children of Israel until we[fn] had crossed over, that their heart melted; and there was no spirit in them any longer because of the children of Israel               

If the nations before Israel were trembling in fear they would not have been able to put up much of a fight which makes their massacre an even worse crime.

You have said Christ was not around when Israel entered the promised land but Christ has been with us from the very beginning of creation it was through him and for him all things have been created and if what you say is true how could Job say the following.

        25  For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

 26  And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: note

 27  Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.     

       
Also you appear to have not taken on board what I have already said: there was no capacity in ancient societies to accomodate sinners. Sinners had to die to ensure self-preservation of those who weren't sinners. Sinners forfeit the love of God. They can only claim mercy, but it is not a right (cf. our penal system). Mercy only came by Jesus Christ. He wasn't around 1500 years before he was born. Mercy was shown to Israel as a nation     

Sinners forfeit the love of God I thought God loved sinners so much that he sent his only begotten son to die an horrific death on the cross for all sinners from Adam to the present day God has put all sinners to death according to the law so we don't have to and he will raise them up again on the last day.

        I don't think baptism and execution are comparable         

Baptism is to be reborn to be reborn mean you have to die first.

Interesting you should use this scripture

      18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

 19  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.       

Who was the only one to fulfil the law it was Christ.

Don't get me wrong I don't condone crime in any form and as you say the state of the world at the present time is appalling which only proves crime and punishment dose not work but the following will work.

   37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

 38  This is the first and great commandment.

 39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets         

Love and Peace
Dave