Author Topic: Murder,kill,destroy  (Read 4313 times)

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Earthman

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #40 on: March 07, 2021, 11:35:54 PM »

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This is the thing, ATM God blinds us - we cannot always see ahead unless He allows it [parts of God's Will are "hidden or secret" to Christians now.. [not just non christians]

 [things we go through that we cannot understand...eg: Saul being brought up as a pharisee - / being blinded  and then coming to see the Light [Paul could not understand - but excepted,relationship with God and  Church/



Where people are permitted to live as they like..

You have the permissive Will of God where all things will be revealed Luke 8:17 For nothing is hidden that will not be made manifest, nor is anything secret that will not be known and come to light.



[the preceptive Will of God]  =

Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil.

Is within the preceptive will of God .. aka : Micah 6:8  He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.



Ephesians 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

 Here we are already seated in heavenly places with Christ [ being adopted legally - where we can never be taken away] and can clainm things ][here we enter dangerous doctrine]

But all will be revealed one day   and God will longer need to hold anything back from us and He will be our Light..[the Light that blinded Saul].

The Light that took Cain,  the Light that took out the egyptians and put them into darkness , the darkness that reviles and hates good..

The Light that took out Paul / converted him..

He was born again as a babe and reunited with his real  parents.

God has to hide ATM and He has to hide His ways from us, because He knows us all so deeply [even those who rage war agianst Him]

God has to hide His ways from us even when we are like Paul ..[Paul could not understand  the thorn in the flesh]

From God's perspective [it's not about people dying or being presented before Him [as all will be - or have been]

Now you enter into the domain of God's Sovereign Will. where He decided long before time began to adopt you..

Paul was talking too ATT - many slaves within the Church - many with much debt [and was saying Ephesians 1:5  he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--

In other words before you ever knew God - He knew you...

It was never about you excepting the "Light" - it was about the Light shining on you ..



Regarding death - God never intended us to die - but being God realised that we would , hence Jesus / giving us free will to decide..

And God permiting He  in His Sovereign Will.. [ Allows Judgement now  whether good or bad acts...  He is the reason why many still live.. [though they should not be allowed to]

And once dead, you will stand before God [ you wil have no words - but God Will.... God Will.

Jesus Friend of Sinners [video]



I must live in the now..  God is dividing my heart as I speak/ type/ as the Holy Spirit searches God's heart,, now today.. [as in eternity]

HE searches me..

http://www.youtube.com/embed/hnMevXQutyE

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Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2021, 11:14:09 AM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply as for KJV according to many experts its is the best translation of Gods word in English we have and thats good enough for me.

As for the law in Hebrew I don't read or speak Hebrew and don't need to the KJV is good enough for me God loves us and wants us to know who he is and what he is doing there's no point in him giving his word in a language no one understands.
Just because the KJV is good enough for you on a personal level, doesn't give you a right to change the meaning of scripture, if what scripture means is "do not murder" by common consent.

Ultimately it's a question of your authority as against those of others. You profess not to know the original languages. Why do you have authority?

You also fail to acknowledge the other bible translations. Of all the bible translations listed on Biblehub.com re Ex 20:13, the vast majority say "do not murder."

The majority that say "do not kill" are the KJV and its predecessors, the American Standard & American KJV bibles, Darby, and Douay-Rheims.

That is to say, they are very dated now. An examination of the etymology of the English word Kill or Kyll shows that it included murder / torment / vex / torture / violent death in its original meaning. Of course it continues to include those meanings; but they are all ancilliary to its primary meaning, which is now to extinguish life in a technical sense. We would use different English words now where we wanted to signify any of those other meanings. The meaning of kill has changed over time, perhaps.

It is true that old English had the words murther, mor?er, from Old English mor?or. From the French came the judicial word murdre. May be it was a case wanting to stick to using English common words rather that words associated with the French originated vocabulary of the legal system.

Whatever. We know the bible context, and we know the context of the biblical commandment is "unlawful killing" i.e. otherwise than in accordance with biblical law.

Ultimately what you think isn't relevant. It's the contextual usage of the word in the Hebrew bible that's relevant. That is where you are at a disadvantage because you don't know it. You'd rather build an alternative theology than engage with the Hebrew.


Have you forgotten that God went before them and cleared out the nations before them.
Not a single Canaanite dropped dead without being killed. May be you're getting confused with a few cases when destroying angels appeared later on in Israel's history. There is no history of destroying angels on entering the promised land, except in the case of the walls of Jericho.
 
Men had been killing animals for food for thousands of years why would God tell Peter to do this makes no sense but makes perfect sense if we see the animals in the sheet as the gentile nations.
Why would we do that? Angels are not known for speaking in parables.

     Deut 4:2 "Do not add a thing to what I command you nor subtract from it, so that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I am delivering to you."

Jos 23:5
And the LORD your God, he shall expel them from before you, and drive them from out of your sight; and ye shall possess their land, as the LORD your God hath promised unto you.           


Can't argue with scripture can we take note we shall not add anything to the word and the verse from Jos backs up what I have been saying it was God that went before them and cleared out the nations before them.

Can I ask it of the RAF who dropped bombs on the cities of Germany two wrongs don't make a right.
I agree, but the Luftwaffe was the orginator. Churchill does have a lot to answer for in replicating the Germans in their evil deeds. It wasn't very magnanimous of him.

Where in scripture dose it say God killed a million Jews I thought it was the Romans.
Matt 24:2, Luke 19:44.

Contrast


Eze 32:7 "When I snuff you out, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon will not give its light."

with Matt 24:29.

So it is clear that God is bringing it about.

So are you saying we should overcome evil with evil.
Non-sequitur. A judical act is not "evil." It is only evil if it is otherwise than in accordance with law. The law permits killing (execution). Pauls says that the law is spiritual. The law includes the death penalty and is aimed at malefactors.

As another poster has pointed, you are in a complete state of denial over large parts of the Old Testament.

Online davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2021, 02:13:13 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply so what you are saying is only academics who understand  ancient languages can undestand Gods word so Scripture in any other language can be scrapped.
Common consent dose not come into it when the scripture says do not kill then that's what it means and you are forgetting if you are right then Christ had the law on his side to destroy all those who were putting him to death which he did not do if he did he would break the law thou shalt not kill.

The only authority there is the scriptures as we have them and we have absolutely no authority to change any of the words to suit our theology.

The only reason men have changed the word kill to murder is to give them an excuse to kill in anyway they like except for premeditated murder.

 You are right what I think isn't relevant and the same applies to you what is relevant is the word of Godand we should not change the word of God but we should change ourselves to comply with God word.

       Exo 34:24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.       

So you refuse to believe the scriptures.

     5  I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:

 6  Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

 7  And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

 8  But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.

 9  But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

 10  And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.

 11  And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.

 12  And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:

 13  And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

 14  Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved           


Read the above Peter is not being told about food he is being told to go to the Gentiles.

        2  And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down           

        *[[Act 10:11]]* And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

*[[Act 11:5]]* I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me

       


No mention of a million Christ is foretelling what the Romans would we should not add words to scriptures

I am not in denial of anything I just have this strange idea that God loves us and God is Love.
I have wondered when it says God has destroyed or killed dose it mean they have been put to sleep to await the resurrection.

Love and Peace
Dave

Earthman

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2021, 11:52:29 PM »
Quote
As another poster has pointed, you are in a complete state of denial over large parts of the Old Testament.

In a strange way you could be  putting dave to death slowly [in a topic called "Muder,Kill,destroy]

When I became a Christian, I had no konwledge of scripture... I was on the streets ..

It took me years to understand , but I really was'nt interested in scripture [one person once said to me "shopping on a sunday ?"]

Another said "Smoking ?" [you know it's bad for your health ?

Another said "do you regret your past ?"  as if I was the prodical, obviously the parents could never be at fault..

It's ignorance of people outside of our own sight/knowledge /experience.



It is not about what dave believes, it is about his heart response, it is not about his intellect or how much he knows.

It is for God to Judge where Dvae is in relationship with Him - [I hate this constant destroying of a heart...]

I am not interested in a persons knowledge of scripture - I am more concerned about the intent of a persons heart..

It's a gradual break down - trying to comand authority over another person.. [ I know because I have lived it]


Dave is not God's because he once chose God, Dave is God's because God chose him - without any knowledge of scripture.


Quote
As another poster has pointed, you are in a complete state of denial over large parts of the Old Testament.

knowledge of the OT never saved dave and will never .



You know it really does.nt matter if you kill dave or not - it's not for you to do that, thus God has the final say.. and you do not.

Ahh how annoying..

Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #44 on: March 09, 2021, 10:39:04 AM »
In a strange way you could be  putting dave to death slowly [in a topic called "Muder,Kill,destroy]

When I became a Christian, I had no konwledge of scripture... I was on the streets ..

It took me years to understand , but I really was'nt interested in scripture [one person once said to me "shopping on a sunday ?"]

Another said "Smoking ?" [you know it's bad for your health ?

Another said "do you regret your past ?"  as if I was the prodical, obviously the parents could never be at fault..
Does the child get the right to blame their sins on their parents? Only under exceptional circumstances where they have been deliberately led into sin. Of course they will critique their parents for not bringing them up well, but that's another matter.

It's ignorance of people outside of our own sight/knowledge /experience.

It is not about what dave believes, it is about his heart response, it is not about his intellect or how much he knows.
And yet it is if you set yourself up as a bible teacher or as a prophet or interpreter of prophecies James 3:1 "Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly."

We're not all called to that. Those that are or who think they are have an obligation to God to be correct, or if uncertain to be prepared to engage in frank discussion. There is nothing wrong with, "I don't know." There's plenty wrong with dogmatizing a false position to the point of absurdity.

It is for God to Judge where Dvae is in relationship with Him - [I hate this constant destroying of a heart...]

I am not interested in a persons knowledge of scripture - I am more concerned about the intent of a persons heart..
I'm not referring to Dave's heart. That is for Dave. I'm having a discussion about the meaning of the commandments.

It's a gradual break down - trying to comand authority over another person.. [ I know because I have lived it]
It is Dave who is exerting his authority to declare many bible translations wayward or less than inspired in using the word "murder" in the commandments.

I have already mentioned I have yet to make up my mind on Dave's overall theology, as I can't really say I'm familiar with his brand, which he declines in any event to characterize by referring to publicly ascertainable positions, except that some of what he says bears too close an identification with JWpositions.

Dave is not God's because he once chose God, Dave is God's because God chose him - without any knowledge of scripture.

knowledge of the OT never saved dave and will never .
OTOH, repudiating or mischaracterizing the OT is a characteristic of misinformed brands of theology from the year dot. There is no surer way to sow confusion and justify erroneous doctrinal positions.

You know it really does.nt matter if you kill dave or not - it's not for you to do that, thus God has the final say.. and you do not.

Ahh how annoying..
If you promote controversial positions on the bible, you'd better be prepared to defend them. For it is how truth is established. To say that the ancient Israelites weren't commanded to kill the Canannites who engaged them in battle, or to say that God himself or his angels would have driven the Canaanites out of the promised land without any effort on the part of the Israelites, are controversial positions that I have never come across before, and to me are frankly absurd. It's like saying, "if the Israelites had been true Christians, then that's what would have happened." They weren't Christians because Christ hadn't appeared and society in those days was rather less scientifically advanced than today. It was a different world back then, and what the Israelites had to do in the way of killing, they had to do it.

That's not  to say the Israelites were obligated to kill those Canaanites that made peace with the Israelites on Israelite terms, but they were very few.

Online davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #45 on: March 09, 2021, 11:37:10 AM »
Hi
Thank you TJ for your post but no need to worry I have a very good foundation in the KJV and it has served me well the biggest problem we have is when people start adding words and changing words to suit there particular theology I know love is bit of a dirty word nowadays but I believe it is the most powerful force in the universe and is the only thing in the universe that can save this world.

    Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.
1 John 4:8-‬12 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1jn.4.8-12.ESV               


So should we overcome evil with love or a submachine gun.

Love and Peace
Dave
https://bible.com/bible/59/1jn.4.8-12.ESV

Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2021, 12:12:10 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply so what you are saying is only academics who understand  ancient languages can undestand Gods word so Scripture in any other language can be scrapped.
You're the one who's disagreeing with the academics. You haven't purported, to date, to say what the Hebrew means, but only what the English in the KJV means in its modern sense. As the KJV uses the word kill in its older sense, it undoubtedly means, at least, death by some violent act, other than under the law.

So I can't see why it shouldn't be translated as murder. Can you?

Common consent dose not come into it when the scripture says do not kill then that's what it means and you are forgetting if you are right then Christ had the law on his side to destroy all those who were putting him to death which he did not do if he did he would break the law thou shalt not kill.
Christ broke the Sabbath law, for the sake of the kingdom of God. If the sake of the kingdom of God had required the Pharisees to be put to death, I'm sure he would have done that too, at least by the hands of his angels, where Christ was not appointed by God to sit in the seat of Moses. You are plainly contradicting the words of Christ himself by invoking the 6th commandment as the reason, when Christ invoked another reason.

For it was Christ who said, Matt 26:54 "But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen this way??

The only authority there is the scriptures as we have them and we have absolutely no authority to change any of the words to suit our theology.
I send that back to you. The vast majority of modern translations use "Do not murder" and recognize that "kill" in the KJV was used in the sense of "murder" for that is the sense in Hebrew and in Greek. It is you who are "changing the words to suit your theology. "

The only reason men have changed the word kill to murder is to give them an excuse to kill in anyway they like except for premeditated murder.
Where is your evidence for that? How about starting with the inherent contradiction of the commandment as you read it with numerous Levitical laws imposing the death penalty.

You are right what I think isn't relevant and the same applies to you what is relevant is the word of Godand we should not change the word of God but we should change ourselves to comply with God
word.

       Exo 34:24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.       

So you refuse to believe the scriptures.
That's your judgement. I hope you will be able to defend it on that day.

     5  I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me:

 6  Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.

 7  And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

 8  But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.

 9  But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

 10  And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven.

 11  And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.

 12  And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:

 13  And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

 14  Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved           


Read the above Peter is not being told about food he is being told to go to the Gentiles.
He is being informed that what was previously regarded as unclean under the law, has now been made clean under the law of Christ, by the clear command of the angel.

        2  And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down           

        *[[Act 10:11]]* And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:

*[[Act 11:5]]* I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me

       


No mention of a million Christ is foretelling what the Romans would we should not add words to scriptures
Did I say that "Christ had foretold a million would die?" Come on.

As with the demolition of the Canaanite strongholds that had to involve huge numbers being killed, so with the demolition of Jerusalem. It was inevitable from Matt 24:2, 21 etc that great distress would come upon the Jews. It is what Christ prophesized. He brought it about. He killed the Jews. Look up Revelation. It was only the beginning of wrath by angels.

I am not in denial of anything I just have this strange idea that God loves us and God is Love.
I have wondered when it says God has destroyed or killed dose it mean they have been put to sleep to await the resurrection.
You are in denial of the Levitical commands prescribing the death penalty, as I see it, for you teach that biological life is inviolable. That is not a scriptural teaching. The only thing that is inviolable is spiritual life.
We are told not to grieve the spirit on the one hand, nor harm those with the spirit on the other. That does not apply to the universality of humanity. The seat of Moses is still entitled to prescribe the death penalty and wage war, if necessary.

If you believe in a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked, as I do, (Acts 24:15) you will believe that also.

Online davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2021, 12:12:29 PM »
Hi eik
I would like to ask you why you do not seem to believe the scriptures as they are written lets look at this verse.

      Exo 34:24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year     

To me if God says he will cast out the nations before Israel then that's what he did all Israel had to do was go in and take possession.
When Israel began to disobey Gods laws God withdrew and Israel began to fight to retain there land.

Love and Peace
Dave

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