Author Topic: Murder,kill,destroy  (Read 4325 times)

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Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2021, 12:48:22 PM »

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Clearly this isn't true. You are not grasping the bible because you're not looking at the original language words.

The reason why we have different English words is because they convey different meanings. The same is true in Hebrew. All you're doing by this exercise is to confound the meanings.

     so what you are saying is I cannot believe one word of scripture because it may mean something entirely different and this from the God who loves and wants us to know who he is.
So what did our Lord have to say about the commandment

        ?You have heard that it was said to those of old,   ?You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable   to judgment.?  But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother  will be liable to judgment; whoever insults  his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ?You fool!? will be liable to the hell  of fire.
Matthew 5:21-‬22 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/mat.5.21-22.ESV           


   seams to me this limits what we can do to our fellow man  considerably     

Thus taxation is not theft. Although some people say that it is, and it may be where it is arbitrary and the proceeds of tax are simply used by rulers to aggrandize themselves, most would say that it is not in the same category as theft, because it is subject to law, and for the most part laws that have been made by legislatures voted in by the people for the benefit of the people. It was the cause the of American revolution that the tax laws were not made by Americans.

The same principle applies to murder. If someone drops bombs on my city, or whatever I am entitled to take up arms in self-defence according to the laws of warfare and inter-state relations. It is not to be equated to the concept of killing someone over a personal dispute, where law is the provided option.

As someone who has studied international law, and tax law, I can confidently say that there is a clear difference in meaning between kill and murder, and between taxation and theft. Yet at the edges, in the realms where the legal becomes illegal, there may be some uncertainty.

In the blanket terms in which you have annihilated the distinctions in meanings, I don't agree.

It's not even a religious issue. It's a linguistic issue that you're not seeing because your personal belief, of pacifism or whatever it is, disallows you to see the distinction in meaning. Please don't project your own hang-ups onto language which has a broader outlook. Even the bible has that broader outlook. It uses different words. It doesn't condemn all soldiers as murderers or all taxation as theft.

What taxation has to do with anything is beyond me I'll let our Lord answer this one.

      21  They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's       

Fact is, the only reason you're able to read the bible is because Christian fought against and killed muslims in their thousands and millions in former centuries. Otherwise, like the early church in the Levant, we'd all be overrun by Islam by now and dutiful muslims reading the Koran.
That's not the issue when the Luftwaffe are reigning bombs down on your city. Are you going to destroy the enemy planes, or not?
What? It was given to the Israelites who were just about to take possession of the promised land by conquest because the people in it were notorious sinners who would corrupt the Israelite morality and would attack and kill them whenever they got the opportunity cf. the Amalekites.

   the interesting thing about the muslims is it was a very peaceful movement when it began it was only when Muhammad was backed into a corner by Christians did he start to fight which proves my point that aggression begets aggression.
So what are our weapons of war

           14  Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

 15  And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

 16  Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

 17  And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God               
     
 nothing here about atom bombs and submachine guns       


The Canaanites chose to engage Israel in battle for the most part. They were the avowed enemies of Israel. You can't live next door to an enemy.
It failed to drive out the Canaanites just as Saul sinned by not destroying the Amalekites.
"Thou shalt not kill" is not the reason he did not resist. The reason was that scripture had to be fulfilled in him. As Christ himself inferred, he was entitled to kill them (under the law) by the hand of avenging angels.
They mean what they say. There was a direct application of that law to the labouring evangelists of his day.

if he had killed them it would be murder and breaking the law which it was not possible for him to do the man in the image of God must be obedient to the law of    God to the letter     

Love and Peace
Dave
https://bible.com/bible/59/mat.5.21-22.ESV

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Online eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2021, 05:03:41 PM »
         so what you are saying is I cannot believe one word of scripture because it may mean something entirely different and this from the God who loves and wants us to know who he is.
    So what did our Lord have to say about the commandment

            ?You have heard that it was said to those of old,   ?You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable   to judgment.?  But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother  will be liable to judgment; whoever insults  his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ?You fool!? will be liable to the hell  of fire.
I am glad you raised the NT. It was what I was going to do. For the Greek also has the distinction between φονεύω (murder) and ἀποκτείνω (kill). As you can see for some obscure reason the commandments are framed in the NT KJV as "do not murder," but in the OT "do not kill."

I think you're going to have to admit to some contradition there between the OT and the NT in the KJV.

I don't think Jesus was talking about the commandment. After all he said not one tittle would fall from the law. Rather he was extending the law in the spiritual plane to include defamation and slander of "brothers" as belonging to the same genus as murder, but perhaps not the same species as murder (such would be manslaughter perhaps although it seems to me that nearly all manslaughter is captured by the Hebrew word for murder in any event).

Also please note the distinction between "brothers" (Christ) and "fellow men" (yourself). I think by insisting on confounding brother and fellow man, you're turning Christianity into communism.

    What taxation has to do with anything is beyond me I'll let our Lord answer this one.
The translation of  taxation into theft, which is quite popular with some, is directly analogous to your translation of kill into murder, which is also popular with some. Neither has the least basis in law or in logic.

          21  They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's       
Exactly so. That is "Caesar's under the law of Caesar." So a State which enjoins conscription to defend itself from attackers is releasing you from the charge of "murdering" the State's enemies. It is the State that makes the law.

It would be different if the State was engaged in an aggressive war, but not that different for the ordinary soldier. Under international law, only the ones at the top would be culpable, except in the case of war crimes where anyone can be held responsible.

          the interesting thing about the muslims is it was a very peaceful movement when it began it was only when Muhammad was backed into a corner by Christians did he start to fight which proves my point that aggression begets aggression.
Backed into a corner by Christians? There were not nearly enough Christians in Arabia in those days for that to be anywhere close to the truth. Arabia in Mahomet's day was largely populated by pagans for the most part, and to a lesser extent, Jews. Mahomet came across Christians in his travels, and likely had a heretical monk to aid him write the Koran. Otherwise Christianity was not a political force in Arabia in those days but only outside of Arabia. Mahomet's murderous ways started with killing the Jews and others for plunder, after his religion faltered and he was expelled from Mecca and went to  Yathrib (Medina).

In fact the Koran directly contradicts you.

Quote
According to Ibn Sad, one of Muhammad?s companions, the opposition in Mecca started when Muhammad delivered verses that condemned idol worship and polytheism. However, the Quran maintains that it began when Muhammad started public preaching. As Islam spread, Muhammad threatened the local tribes and Meccan rulers because their wealth depended on the Kaaba. Muhammad?s preaching was particularly offensive to his own Quraysh tribe because they guarded the Kaaba and drew their political and religious power from its polytheistic shrines.
https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-hccc-worldcivilization/chapter/flight-from-mecca-to-medina/


    So what are our weapons of war

               14  Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

     15  And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

     16  Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

     17  And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God                     
     nothing here about atom bombs and submachine guns       
Weapons of war are for political rulers. Spiritual weapons are for individuals. I see no conflict there, except the former should also possess spiritual weapons if they have any sense.

if he had killed them it would be murder and breaking the law which it was not possible for him to do the man in the image of God must be obedient to the law of    God to the letter     
If that is so, how come Elijah gave the order to slay the prophets of Ba'al?

1 Kings 18:40 "Then Elijah said, ?Capture the prophets of Baal! Don?t let any of them run away!? The people captured all the prophets. Then Elijah led them down to the Kishon Valley, where he killed them."

What about Jael and Phineas, whom you haven't yet addressed?

Was it murder? Is that what the bible says? I'll remind you that Elijah was translated directly to heaven. 2 Kings 2:11.

I think you are not coherent in the least.

https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-hccc-worldcivilization/chapter/flight-from-mecca-to-medina/

Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2021, 12:44:40 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply but our Lord quoting  the OT said.

        Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: note View more

Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. View more

Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother     


Here he uses the word kill three times did he get it wrong.

Quote
      Exactly so. That is "Caesar's under the law of Caesar." So a State which enjoins conscription to defend itself from attackers is releasing you from the charge of "murdering" the State's enemies. It is the State that makes the law.     

But Gods law says though shalt not kill so which law should we obey man's or Gods.

I have been wondering did Israel get what God was saying to them entirely  wrong as many of the Christians have done how should we understand the following

      And I heard a voice saying to me, ?Rise, Peter; kill and eat.?
Acts 11:7 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/act.11.7.ESV     


I understand it as to kill with the sword of the spirit which is the word of God to eat is to consume into the body of Christ.
Was Israel meant to do the same to spread Gods word throughout the world there by killing there sinful nature's and turning them to God.
Is the command to Peter the same to kill and eat with the sword of truth God has never wanted us to kill anyone physically but spirituality to kill all their evil thoughts and actions.

Quote
        If that is so, how come Elijah gave the order to slay the prophets of Ba'al?

1 Kings 18:40 "Then Elijah said, ?Capture the prophets of Baal! Don?t let any of them run away!? The people captured all the prophets. Then Elijah led them down to the Kishon Valley, where he killed them       

How did Elijah kill them in the way I have outlined above or did he strike them dead physically or spiritual which one do you think the God of Love would approve of and take him up to Heaven.

As for Islam I know nothing what I wrote before was something I read a long time ago weather it is true or not I am not sure.

Love and Peace
Dave
https://bible.com/bible/59/act.11.7.ESV

Offline Serenity

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2021, 10:05:13 PM »
Not everything literal is spiritual and not everything spiritual is literal. 

Sometimes things are just as it is.  Dave i have to say there are instances in the Bible where God did act or speak in a way which ended up with killing humans.  You have the one who thought it was okay to steady the Ark...struck down.  Many killed Sodom and Gomorrah.  Soldiers in the sea when Moses parted with the rod.  Population not on Noah's ark.  These are just the grab instances off top of my head. 
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Online eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #36 on: March 07, 2021, 05:14:35 AM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply but our Lord quoting  the OT said.

        Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: note View more

Mar 10:19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. View more

Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother     


Here he uses the word kill three times did he get it wrong.
As I said before, the KJV is inconsistent. You're not addressing the issue. The issue is inconsistency in the translation of the same Greek words, which is always φονεύω whether in Mat 19:18 or Matt 5;21. It is also obvious that the contextual meaning of the same Greek word at Matt 23:31 and Mat 23:35 should be murder.

The inconsistency is even more remarkable when we consider the noun form φονεύς of the Greek verb φονεύω is "always" translated "murderer" in the KJV.

Fact is the KJV uses the word "kill" arbitrarily and haphazardly and is a mistranslation. That is the point. The word in Greek, as in Hebrew, means "murder" in the context of the commandments and in the context of its other contextual usages.

But Gods law says though shalt not kill so which law should we obey man's or Gods.
God's law was written in Hebrew. I defer you to the Hebrew.

I have been wondering did Israel get what God was saying to them entirely  wrong as many of the Christians have done how should we understand the following

      And I heard a voice saying to me, ?Rise, Peter; kill and eat.?
Acts 11:7 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/act.11.7.ESV     

If the Israelites were not to kill anyone, they would have remained permanently ensconced in their camp at Petra in the wilderness, where they would have been massacred by their enemies such as the Amalekites.

I understand it as to kill with the sword of the spirit which is the word of God to eat is to consume into the body of Christ.
No the command was to kill the animal. Have you ever tried to eat an animal only "killed" with the sword of truth?

"I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" 1 Cor 15;50.

You're endlessly confusing the meaning and context of language.

Was Israel meant to do the same to spread Gods word throughout the world there by killing there sinful nature's and turning them to God.
The command given to the Israelites was to take possession of the promised land.

Deut 4:2 "Do not add a thing to what I command you nor subtract from it, so that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I am delivering to you."

Jos 23:5
And the LORD your God, he shall expel them from before you, and drive them from out of your sight; and ye shall possess their land, as the LORD your God hath promised unto you.

Is the command to Peter the same to kill and eat with the sword of truth God has never wanted us to kill anyone physically but spirituality to kill all their evil thoughts and actions.
Ask that question of the Luftwaffe dropping bombs on your house. How exactly are you going to "kill spirituality all their evil thoughts and actions" except by destroying their bodies?

If it was so easy, why didn't Jesus do it of the Pharisees? Why did he say that he would have to summon angels, which in effect was to summon the power of divine wrath?

Why did God slaugher 1 million+ Jews at Jerusalem in AD70 if he could have just "slain their evil thoughts and actions?"

You completely fail to grasp the nature of evil, and that it is opposed to the good. Like Cain and Abel, evil desires to slay the good.

How did Elijah kill them in the way I have outlined above or did he strike them dead physically or spiritual which one do you think the God of Love would approve of and take him up to Heaven.

Why was it not murder? I didn't give you the answer did I? I was wondering what excuse you would come up with. It is because it was a judicial execution according to the law.

Deut 13:1 ?If a prophet or someone who has dreams arises among you and proclaims a sign or wonder to you, 2 and that sign or wonder he has promised you comes about, but he says, ?Let us follow other gods,? which you have not known, ?and let us worship them,? 3 do not listen to that prophet?s words or to that dreamer. For the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul. 4 You must follow the Lord your God and fear Him. You must keep His commands and listen to His voice; you must worship Him and remain faithful[a] to Him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he has urged rebellion against the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the place of slavery, to turn you from the way the Lord your God has commanded you to walk. You must purge the evil from you."

As for Islam I know nothing what I wrote before was something I read a long time ago weather it is true or not I am not sure.
Clearly it wasn't true. Islam was a bloodthirsty religion long before it ever encountered Christianity as a political force. Islam is the archetypal religion of false prophets. Also JWs. I think they're in the same league, personally.


https://bible.com/bible/59/act.11.7.ESV

Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #37 on: March 07, 2021, 12:56:31 PM »
Not everything literal is spiritual and not everything spiritual is literal. 

Sometimes things are just as it is.  Dave i have to say there are instances in the Bible where God did act or speak in a way which ended up with killing humans.  You have the one who thought it was okay to steady the Ark...struck down.  Many killed Sodom and Gomorrah.  Soldiers in the sea when Moses parted with the rod.  Population not on Noah's ark.  These are just the grab instances off top of my head. 

Hi Serenity 
Thank you for your post the problem I have is thinking of the God of Love sitting in heaven approving of all types of killing except premeditated murder.
This goes against every command our Lord Jesus gave us to love our neighbours to love our enemies to love God to turn the other cheek so tell me how I can keep these commands then go out and kill anybody even in war.
I know men have been killing each other ever since Cain killed Able the question is dose The God of Love approve of  any of it did he clap his hands with joy when we dropped atomic bombs on Japan killing woman and children.
All wars and killings are against the laws of love

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Serenity

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #38 on: March 07, 2021, 01:02:45 PM »
You may find it difficult but it is what it is. 
The few grab examples i wrote were to do with God doing the killing not man. 

God of love taking humans lives, both as single instances of 1 person or the multitudes.  God alone has killed multitudes.

Not liking something or not understanding something does not change or detract from something happening or being fact.


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Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #39 on: March 07, 2021, 01:36:59 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply as for KJV according to many experts its is the best translation of Gods word in English we have and thats good enough for me.

As for the law in Hebrew I don't read or speak Hebrew and don't need to the KJV is good enough for me God loves us and wants us to know who he is and what he is doing there's no point in him giving his word in a language no one understands.

Quote
  If the Israelites were not to kill anyone, they would have remained permanently ensconced in their camp at Petra in the wilderness, where they would have been massacred by their enemies such as the Amalekites         

Have you forgotten that God went before them and cleared out the nations before them.

Quote
        No the command was to kill the animal. Have you ever tried to eat an animal only "killed" with the sword of truth       

Men had been killing animals for food for thousands of years why would God tell Peter to do this makes no sense but makes perfect sense if we see the animals in the sheet as the gentile nations.

Quote
      The command given to the Israelites was to take possession of the promised land       

Agreed

     Deut 4:2 "Do not add a thing to what I command you nor subtract from it, so that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I am delivering to you."

Jos 23:5
And the LORD your God, he shall expel them from before you, and drive them from out of your sight; and ye shall possess their land, as the LORD your God hath promised unto you.           


Can't argue with scripture can we take note we shall not add anything to the word and the verse from Jos backs up what I have been saying it was God that went before them and cleared out the nations before them.

Quote
         Ask that question of the Luftwaffe dropping bombs on your house. How exactly are you going to "kill spirituality all their evil thoughts and actions" except by destroying their bodies   

Can I ask it of the RAF who dropped bombs on the cities of Germany two wrongs don't make a right.

Quote
       Why did God slaugher 1 million+ Jews at Jerusalem in AD70 if he could have just "slain their evil thoughts and actions       

Where in scripture dose it say God killed a million Jews I thought it was the Romans.

Quote
     You completely fail to grasp the nature of evil, and that it is opposed to the good. Like Cain and Abel, evil desires to slay the good   

So are you saying we should overcome evil with evil.

Love and Peace
Dave

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