Author Topic: Murder,kill,destroy  (Read 13311 times)

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Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #176 on: May 14, 2021, 02:39:11 PM »

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Hi eik
Thank you for your post how do you interpret these verses

    Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. View more

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband           


The new Jerusalem comes down from heaven to earth with christ as its head and from here Christ with his bride will rule the world for 1000 years without any interference from satan.
The point is this, new Jerusalem never does come down in the entirety of Revelation. I have already made this point: nowhere in Revelation is the new Jerusalem said to "have completed its descent" from heaven, for that state is beyond the Revelation prophecy. Moreover it will only come down to the new Earth, not the old earth.

I therefore reject your interpretation (underlined) as a faerie tale, a myth, and a complete failure to grasp what Revelation is talking actually about on a spiritual level: i.e. that the new Jerusalem is a city in heaven, from the vantage of everyone on the earth, and yet accessible from earth for the saints in that they, and they alone, are accounted its citizens.

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Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #177 on: May 16, 2021, 10:35:35 AM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply if what you say is right where dose the new Jerusalem come down to if dose not come down to earth then it must remain in heaven if it remains in heaven it means it can't come down. But the scripture says the new Jerusalem comes down and the only place it can come down to is planet earth..
This is the end of creation man in the image of God Christ the head his bride the church his body united as one as discribed in Genesis and the man in the image of God will rule the earth for 1000 years as stated in scripture.
You cannot change the meaning of the word thousand to suit your theology our theology must be built around Gods word as we have it in the bible if it says a thousand i means a thousand nothing else.

Then we have

      Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. View more

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. View more

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. View more

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God       


This is saying he shall rule the earth with a rod of iron he shall rule the earth from the new Jerusalem.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #178 on: May 16, 2021, 01:03:22 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply if what you say is right where dose the new Jerusalem come down to if dose not come down to earth then it must remain in heaven if it remains in heaven it means it can't come down. But the scripture says the new Jerusalem comes down and the only place it can come down to is planet earth..
No I don't agree with your simple alternatives of either being in heaven or on earth.

First it must be in heaven otherwise it cannot descend. Don' forget even in Rev 21:2 it is still coming down from heaven, after the old earth has passed away in Rev. 21:1.

Second what is the reason for the transposition between earth and heaven? It is surely to gather up its citizens. Constrast with Roms 10:6. The reason for going to heaven, would be to bring Christ down. The reason for descending would be to raise Christ up again from the deep. So if the New Jerusalem is seen coming down from heaven, it is to populate itself with all the saved saints from earth.

So I take these passages to mean that the New Jerusalem is gathering in its citizens on earth. However it is clearly never to be found on earth, especially old earth.

This is the end of creation man in the image of God Christ the head his bride the church his body united as one as discribed in Genesis and the man in the image of God will rule the earth for 1000 years as stated in scripture.
You cannot change the meaning of the word thousand to suit your theology our theology must be built around Gods word as we have it in the bible if it says a thousand i means a thousand nothing else.
Then we have
You keep on ramming this down my throat by I have shown you many instances where you reject revelation, such as in the addition of "on earth" to the millennium, and "the end of creation is man in the image of God" (I might credit you if you said "man in the image of Christ is the end of faith"), so that for you to insist on 1000 as literal is perverse. Moreover what you say above isn't found in scripture. It's your own invention. Repeating the same thing over and again is not making an argument.

You've haven't yet provided anyone else who agrees with you except for strobe. That's 2 people out of 7,874,965,825, Where is your authority?

Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #179 on: May 16, 2021, 02:03:10 PM »
No I don't agree with your simple alternatives of either being in heaven or on earth.

you don't have to agree but then you cannot proove me wrong from scripture           

First it must be in heaven otherwise it cannot descend. Don' forget even in Rev 21:2 it is still coming down from heaven, after the old earth has passed away in Rev. 21:1.

of course starts in heaven the dead in Christ come to life and those alive at his comming are translated into spiritual beings.
And so the body of Christ will be created and united and will return to earth to reign for 1000 years   


Second what is the reason for the transposition between earth and heaven? It is surely to gather up its citizens. Constrast with Roms 10:6. The reason for going to heaven, would be to bring Christ down. The reason for descending would be to raise Christ up again from the deep. So if the New Jerusalem is seen coming down from heaven, it is to populate itself with all the saved saints from earth.

So I take these passages to mean that the New Jerusalem is gathering in its citizens on earth. However it is clearly never to be found on earth, especially old earth.
You keep on ramming this down my throat by I have shown you many instances where you reject revelation, such as in the addition of "on earth" to the millennium, and "the end of creation is man in the image of God" (I might credit you if you said "man in the image of Christ is the end of faith"), so that for you to insist on 1000 as literal is perverse. Moreover what you say above isn't found in scripture. It's your own invention. Repeating the same thing over and again is not making an argument.

You've haven't yet provided anyone else who agrees with you except for strobe. That's 2 people out of 7,874,965,825, Where is your authority?

Quote
 
You've haven't yet provided anyone else who agrees with you except for strobe. That's 2 people out of 7,874,965,825, Where is your authority           

I have no authority of my own my authority is Gods word and that means not changing them to mans words if we don't understand them then we should pray for more light not change the word.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #180 on: May 17, 2021, 07:22:47 AM »
Quote
    No I don't agree with your simple alternatives of either being in heaven or on earth.
    you don't have to agree but then you cannot proove me wrong from scripture           
Oh I can prove you wrong. It's just that you refuse to accept your wrongfulness.

As Revelation 22 says, "18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll."

So if the Greek text of Rev 21 says " And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, "coming" down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband,"

then you pervert the text to say "And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, "come" down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." Also in Revelation 3:12.

Because you are not allowed to change the tense of the verb "come" to suite your own theology. Also you have consistently failed to explain how if the New Jerusalem came down from heaven for the millennium, how it can be seen coming down out of heaven after the end of the millennium in Rev 21?

Your theories are half-baked and disingenuous: not the sort of thing that anyone with an interest in truth could be concerned with.


Quote

    First it must be in heaven otherwise it cannot descend. Don' forget even in Rev 21:2 it is still coming down from heaven, after the old earth has passed away in Rev. 21:1.
    of course starts in heaven the dead in Christ come to life and those alive at his comming are translated into spiritual beings.
    And so the body of Christ will be created and united and will return to earth to reign for 1000 years   
The body of Christ is a spiritual body. It is already created (1Co 12:27 "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular") and it won't "return" to (old) earth.

May be you don't think you are of the body of Christ?


Quote

    Second what is the reason for the transposition between earth and heaven? It is surely to gather up its citizens. Constrast with Roms 10:6. The reason for going to heaven, would be to bring Christ down. The reason for descending would be to raise Christ up again from the deep. So if the New Jerusalem is seen coming down from heaven, it is to populate itself with all the saved saints from earth.

    So I take these passages to mean that the New Jerusalem is gathering in its citizens on earth. However it is clearly never to be found on earth, especially old earth.
    You keep on ramming this down my throat by I have shown you many instances where you reject revelation, such as in the addition of "on earth" to the millennium, and "the end of creation is man in the image of God" (I might credit you if you said "man in the image of Christ is the end of faith"), so that for you to insist on 1000 as literal is perverse. Moreover what you say above isn't found in scripture. It's your own invention. Repeating the same thing over and again is not making an argument.

    You've haven't yet provided anyone else who agrees with you except for strobe. That's 2 people out of 7,874,965,825, Where is your authority?

I have no authority of my own my authority is Gods word and that means not changing them to mans words if we don't understand them then we should pray for more light not change the word.
Well the history of orthodoxy is of a core body of believers who agree with each other and who keep the faith (1Ti 3:9 "They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience.")

Whereas the history of heresy is per Act 20:30 "Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them."

If your teachings were orthodox, you would be able to point me to this core body of believers keeping the (i.e. your) faith. You don't seem to be able to do that. You want to say you invented these teachings of your own accord "with God." How do we know that it is by God you deliver them? Who told you that it was God? May be it was satan, or may you just haven't got the faintest idea what you're talking about and there is some other problem where you don't recognize that you haven't got the proof for what you are saying. Therefore your arguments will never convince anyone, but they may influence a small number with a passion for the esoteric and false gnosis.

Again I say, show me what body of orthodoxy you are upholding. Who are your teachers?

You don't seem to grasp that novelty in Christianity is always deeply suspect. Mal 3:6 "I the LORD do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed."

Heb 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever."

If this stuff wasn't being taught by the apostles, why are you teaching it?

You would now have God destroying his own works, and re-creating anew.  What God is it that you worship?


Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #181 on: May 17, 2021, 11:30:07 AM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply but you have proved absolutely nothing what you have said can apply  to you as well everything I have said is based in scripture as it is written without changing words.
There is absolutly no point in you going on about grammar and foreign languages I don't  understand a word you say if God only gave us his word to be read by academics then the ordenary man would be totally reliant on man to understand scripture and not on God then the question is which man should I listen to there are literally thousands out there all saying different things all I am saying is I will only listen to the word of God as we have them in the bible.
When Christ came into the world he had very little good to say about the academics of his day nearly all of his preaching was directed to the ordenary and the uneducated.

Quote
     The body of Christ is a spiritual body. It is already created (1Co 12:27 "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular") and it won't "return" to (old) earth.

May be you don't think you are of the body of Christ       

At the present time the body of Christ is being created and awaits the coming of Christ to claim his bride.

Quote
    Whereas the history of heresy is per Act 20:30 "Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them           

This can apply  to me and to you only Gods word is true

Quote
     Again I say, show me what body of orthodoxy you are upholding. Who are your teachers       

My teachers are all found in the bible from in the beginning to the amen in revelations I have said before all the books from the academics I put to one side a long time ago then I picked up my bible and said to myself how dose God speak to me and what you see is what I got.
Basically what I am saying is the whole of scripture is based in the creation accounts in Genesis and creation will be finished when we have man ( mankind ) in the image of God which will be realised in Christ Jesus our Lord at his second comming when Christ and his bride are united as one this is man in the image of God.
Creation is on going not something that was finished thousands of years ago if it was finished thousands of years ago it would mean God had failed several time and the God I worship cannot fail so creation has to be ongoing.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #182 on: May 18, 2021, 03:29:16 AM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply but you have proved absolutely nothing what you have said can apply  to you as well everything I have said is based in scripture as it is written without changing words.
There is absolutly no point in you going on about grammar and foreign languages I don't  understand a word you say if God only gave us his word to be read by academics then the ordenary man would be totally reliant on man to understand scripture and not on God then the question is which man should I listen to there are literally thousands out there all saying different things all I am saying is I will only listen to the word of God as we have them in the bible.
When Christ came into the world he had very little good to say about the academics of his day nearly all of his preaching was directed to the ordenary and the uneducated.
However he did speak the native lingo and as a youth learnt from the academics. He did not spend his formative years in isolation.

Yet this is not what I'm talking about, but about the core teachings of the faith as alluded to by the apostles. You have not shown that your own teachings pertain to it.

At the present time the body of Christ is being created and awaits the coming of Christ to claim his bride.
I would say the body of Christ "was" created in the apostles, and is being added to.

This can apply  to me and to you only Gods word is true

My teachers are all found in the bible from in the beginning to the amen in revelations I have said before all the books from the academics I put to one side a long time ago then I picked up my bible and said to myself how dose God speak to me and what you see is what I got.
Any false teacher could say that. Now I am talking about the people that hold to your doctrines. The body of Christ is comprised ultimately of people. I don't know who they are in your case.

Basically what I am saying is the whole of scripture is based in the creation accounts in Genesis
I don't see it, although I'll concur 7 is a sacred number.

and creation will be finished when we have man ( mankind ) in the image of God which will be realised in Christ Jesus our Lord at his second comming when Christ and his bride are united as one this is man in the image of God.
Such a collectivist view disentitles an indivdual man to say "I am of the body of Christ." Eph 3:6. For you it is future. For the New Testament, it is present.

Creation is on going not something that was finished thousands of years ago if it was finished thousands of years ago it would mean God had failed several time and the God I worship cannot fail so creation has to be ongoing.
The end of creation what the bible talks about in Gen 2:1-3. "There was an evening and a morning." Each creation day dawned and finished.

The days of creation resulted in the spiritual creation of spiritual man. The biological progeny of man really has nothing to do with it. It's where you fail to gasp what God's end in creation was: Adam the man. It was Adam who failed but God saved him.

There is nothing in the bible to suggest that God had failed, or that God had to go back and recreate anything.

Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #183 on: May 18, 2021, 02:14:01 PM »
However he did speak the native lingo and as a youth learnt from the academics. He did not spend his formative years in isolation.

      46  And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.

 47  And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

 48  And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

 49  And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business       


  the question is who was teaching who             

Yet this is not what I'm talking about, but about the core teachings of the faith as alluded to by the apostles. You have not shown that your own teachings pertain to it.

I believe what I say is in keeping with the NT as a whole       


I would say the body of Christ "was" created in the apostles, and is being added to.

I have never said anything different

Any false teacher could say that. Now I am talking about the people that hold to your doctrines. The body of Christ is comprised ultimately of people. I don't know who they are in your case.

  like I have said before there are those in all denominations that are in the body of Christ its whats in the heart that God looks at not whats in the head         

I don't see it, although I'll concur 7 is a sacred number.
Such a collectivist view disentitles an indivdual man to say "I am of the body of Christ." Eph 3:6. For you it is future. For the New Testament, it is present.

I have not said joining the body of Christ is a future event we join when we believe what I have said and the bible confirms is that the body and the head which is Christ will be joined as one at Christs second coming         


The end of creation what the bible talks about in Gen 2:1-3. "There was an evening and a morning." Each creation day dawned and finished.

very true but was evening and morning referring to light and dark good and evil ?

The days of creation resulted in the spiritual creation of spiritual man. The biological progeny of man really has nothing to do with it. It's where you fail to gasp what God's end in creation was: Adam the man. It was Adam who failed but God saved him.

There is nothing in the bible to suggest that God had failed, or that God had to go back and recreate anything.

       I have never said that God had failed thats not possible
  the only time God could call everything very good is at the end of the millenium


Love and Peace
Dave

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