Author Topic: Murder,kill,destroy  (Read 13303 times)

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Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #160 on: May 08, 2021, 08:14:22 AM »

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply as for what I said

Both my posts here say basicly the same thing Christ will reign here on earth for 1000 years.

Wich part of       and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.                don't you understand Christ and his bride will reign here on earth for 1000 years as stated in scripture.

Love and peace
Dave
Why not address the points I raised instead of evading the issues.

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Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #161 on: May 08, 2021, 09:56:23 AM »
Why not address the points I raised instead of evading the issues.

The point of the discussion as I see it is I and the bible say that Christ will reign here on earth for 1000 years and all the scripture I have quoted support this fact.
You say he will not but remain in heaven with little or no scripture to back it up.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #162 on: May 08, 2021, 10:50:47 AM »
The point of the discussion as I see it is I and the bible say that Christ will reign here on earth for 1000 years and all the scripture I have quoted support this fact.
You say he will not but remain in heaven with little or no scripture to back it up.

Love and Peace
Dave
We were discussing your contradictions: your statement that the new Jerusalem would come down from heaven at the millennium, which you yourself have now sought to contradict. We were discussing the bible stating, not that Christ would reign for 1000 years, but that the saints would reign alongside Christ for 1000 years. Now this necessarily infers that Christ is reigning for more than 1000 years as he was also reigning during the period when the saints were becoming saints.

Talk about smoke and mirrors. You can't even show the 1000 years applies to Christ's own reign, let alone that he will come down from heaven.

Waste of time discussing anything with you. I don't have to prove anything, because as Rev says, he who perverts the prophecy in Rev is damned.

Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #163 on: May 08, 2021, 01:40:25 PM »
Hi eik
I can't discuss something I have not said I will try to make myself crystal clear.
The new Jerusalem will be created at the rapture this will be the start of Christs 1000 year reign on earth.
At the end of the 1000 year reign Christ will hand everything he has created in that time back to the Father this will be the new Jerusalem from which God will create the new heaven and earth.
As you can sea no contradiction Christ has been reigning over the earth from the beginning of creation but he has not reigned on earth his first advent was as the suffering servant his second advent will be as King of Kings and he will rule here on earth for a thousand years.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #164 on: May 09, 2021, 10:39:50 AM »
Hi eik
I can't discuss something I have not said I will try to make myself crystal clear.
The new Jerusalem will be created at the rapture this will be the start of Christs 1000 year reign on earth.
At the end of the 1000 year reign Christ will hand everything he has created in that time back to the Father this will be the new Jerusalem from which God will create the new heaven and earth.
As you can sea no contradiction Christ has been reigning over the earth from the beginning of creation but he has not reigned on earth his first advent was as the suffering servant his second advent will be as King of Kings and he will rule here on earth for a thousand years.
And as I have already said, Rev 21:1,2 (the new Jerusalem coming down from heaven "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband") follows the end of the 1000 year reign of the saints in Rev 20:4. Rev. It also follows the rebellion of Gog and Magog under Satan and the last judgement.

What is the New Jerusalem: the heavenly city of God to be united with Christ. Rev 3:12 "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

Also Rev 21:10-27.

So what is clear is that as far as this earth is concerned, it will never descend fully. Rather it is an interface between heaven and earth, the city of the saints, a mystical city denoting the church including all the elect of Israel and previously.

To confound the physical appearance of the New Jerusalem with reign of God's saints "on this earth" is somewhat perverse. The New Jerusalem is rather the city of God's saints. If the saints are reigning over earth with Christ, then figuratively the New Jerusalem must remain in heaven (a) because it cannot be defiled by Gog and Magog, (b) heaven is the seat of God's power, and so the New Jerusalem must remain in heaven if the saints are to reign at all.

The New Jerusalem never fully descends from heaven in the entire book of Revelation, that is, in the lifespan of the earth, until right at the end, when "first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea" (Rev 21:1). This is when it has taken in within itself the whole body of saints appointed to be saved, and it is when the new heavens and the new earth are created.

So confounding a millennium with the New Jerusalem is perverse. The New Jerusalem is there to be entered for all God's people down the ages, "coming down from heaven." It is not unreachable. Yet it will not fully descend until united with Christ at the marriage feast, which is not the 1000 years of Rev 20:4.

Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #165 on: May 09, 2021, 12:41:59 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply but it seams to me we are going around in circles and getting nowhere I will not change my mind and I don't think you will either by fighting and squabbling like two small children is not edifying the church of Christ.
In your interpretation I find very little love and God is Love he loves us so much he sent his son to die for us so for myself I am always looking for that love in his word the thought of the God of Love destroying most of the people that have ever lived is repugnant to me.
So I see the millennial reign of Christ as a learning period for all those who are left on earth after the rapture the rapture being the start of his millennial reign.
Satan and all his will be locked away for the 1000 years so that all those left on earth can come to a true knowledge of God at the end of this learning period satan is released the final test before everything is handed back to the Farther who will use what Christ as created to create the new heaven and earth.
So I think its best left to those who read our posts to check everything we say against the scripture if they have any question to ask them.

I thought it mite be appropriate to continue with what comes after the millenium the Lake of fire what is it what is its purpose.

A few scriptures to kick us of.

    Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. View more

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. View more

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. View more

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire       


Then we have

   Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. View more

Deu 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee. View more

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire       


So is God the lake of fire if so what is it's purpose is its purpose to consume all thats evil will it have a good outcome to purify all those who had rejected Christ.
The reason I say this is because because one of the commands given by our Lord was love you enemies and we know God loves his enemies because he sent his son to die for them.
So as God loves us so much is it reasonable to think he would do such a terrible thing as to torment those he loves for ever.

Love and Peace
Dave


Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #166 on: May 09, 2021, 09:00:42 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply but it seams to me we are going around in circles and getting nowhere I will not change my mind and I don't think you will either by fighting and squabbling like two small children is not edifying the church of Christ.
I thought I gave you a fairly uncontroversial interpretation of the New Jerusalem, authenticiated by the bible itself in Heb 12. If you reject my sentiments I reject yours. To say "The New Jerusalem is rather the city of God's saints" is uncontroversial. It is never associated in the bible with the exercise of worldly authority but with exclusion of the godless. The New Jerusalem is the abode of God's saints, not a technique for saving the godless.

In your interpretation I find very little love and God is Love
A ridiculous thing to say, just because I don't agree with you. You confound love with assenting to your own views. It is well known that universalists promote their heretical doctrines under the banner of 'love'. In fact every political propaganda group advocating toleration of sin evangelizes under the banner of 'love'.

he loves us so much he sent his son to die for us so for myself I am always looking for that love in his word the thought of the God of Love destroying most of the people that have ever lived is repugnant to me.
You are not God, and God's quality as a holy God means that he cannot dwell with evil, which necessitates that the unrepentant must suffer for their rebellion: Eze 18:21 "But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die."

So you should be preaching repentance and faith, not universalist doctrines such as a fake millennium acting as a substitute for the equally heretical doctrine of purgatory under the false banner of love.

So I see the millennial reign of Christ as a learning period for all those who are left on earth after the rapture the rapture being the start of his millennial reign.
Satan and all his will be locked away for the 1000 years so that all those left on earth can come to a true knowledge of God at the end of this learning period satan is released the final test before everything is handed back to the Farther who will use what Christ as created to create the new heaven and earth.
So I think its best left to those who read our posts to check everything we say against the scripture if they have any question to ask them.
As I have said, it's a new religion unauthenticated by the apostles. I only go in for apostolic Christianity. You OTOH go in for the weird and wonderful: the notion that liberal-loving left-wing communists, & feminists who refuse to subject themselves to men, are still going to be given the chance to go to heaven. Anything else seems to be anathema to your politics. Your mistake is to confound your politics with religion. The two are different things.

See this newstory in the dailymail:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9557845/School-reports-chaplain-telling-pupils-theyre-allowed-disagree-LGBT-teaching.html

This is what happens where a schools thinks the duty of the religious Christian is to espouse its atheist politics.

I thought it mite be appropriate to continue with what comes after the millenium the Lake of fire what is it what is its purpose.

A few scriptures to kick us of.

    Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. View more

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. View more

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. View more

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire       


Then we have

   Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. View more

Deu 9:3 Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee. View more

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire       


So is God the lake of fire if so what is it's purpose is its purpose to consume all thats evil will it have a good outcome to purify all those who had rejected Christ.
The reason I say this is because because one of the commands given by our Lord was love you enemies and we know God loves his enemies because he sent his son to die for them.
So as God loves us so much is it reasonable to think he would do such a terrible thing as to torment those he loves for ever.
So you're a universalist, unitarian or quaker or communist or some other sort, possibly an outcast from the Plymouth Brethren. You're unwillingness to expose your background is deeply troubling.

Universalism is an extensive heresy to which others have put a lot of effort into repudiating. I have seen in your own comments, an attachment to a communist element: a brotherhood of men, rather than a brotherhood of saints, and a devotion to a line of reasoning that comes from yourself, but not the doctrines of the apostles. This is why I suspect you may not be equipped to teach the bible, as you don't grasp that the New Jerusalem is a brotherhood of obedient saints alone, not a brotherhood of mankind or men in general. I also saw that from your use of liberal theologians.

Mat 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

This is a fact, OK.

It's OK to have the concern for men, but it's not OK to mould it into a full blown theological / political heresy using some manmade concept of the millennium as a building block. Yes, the communists are going to be excluded from the kingdom of God, because they are godless atheists for the most part. This is what Paul says of his concern for Israel:
Rom 9:3 "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:"

Rom 9:4 "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;"


And you accused me of being a liar for saying Israel was God's adopted son? Is that love? It is clear that God cast off many of his would-be adopted sons as they would not obey him.

This is what CARM says of universalism, where there is an extensive repudiation of it. I suggest you read it. "https://carm.org/universalism/"

This is what CARM says about the pointless of discussing the subject with universalism's devoted adherents:
Quote
To be honest, only one group of people has treated me worse than the universalists and that is the satanists.

This disparity between the profession of love and the actions of hate, combined with how they undermined the preaching of the gospel by other Christians, motivated me to write refutations of the universalist position. So, I created a universalism section on my website and tackled many of the issues they raised. This escalated the hostility from the unies even more. Many of them became increasingly insulting in their posts. After a while, I started keeping examples of their hate-filled posts. The following list contains extractions from actual universalist posts that I have documented. They are a sad example of some of the tactics and low-level attacks many of them tried to use to establish their doctrine that God is going to save everyone, no matter what they believe or do here.

    I was compared to Bin Laden and that my belief in eternal damnation was satanic &etc
https://carm.org/universalism/why-i-closed-the-universalism-discussion-board-on-carm/

Let's be clear that universalism is the religion of the political communist, and is pre-eminently a false prophecy.

2Ti 4:3 "For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."

2Ti 4:4 "They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."


The millennium as theologically constituted for the salvation of the unrepentant is a myth.


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9557845/School-reports-chaplain-telling-pupils-theyre-allowed-disagree-LGBT-teaching.html
https://carm.org/universalism/
https://carm.org/universalism/why-i-closed-the-universalism-discussion-board-on-carm/

Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #167 on: May 10, 2021, 11:29:28 AM »
Hi eik
Well I think that's the most unchristian post you have posted so far who made you a judge I will not be judged by you or any one else all you seam to want to do is call me names most of which I don't understand.
What I do understand it seams to be little or no Christian love in anything you write I advise you to read the following and understand what it means

    If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.   Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;  it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
1 Corinthians 13:1-‬7 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.13.1-7.ESV       


It seams you want to win converts with aggression it will not work aggression only gets more aggression try love instead never forgetting our Lord command Love your enemies.

If as you say universalists want everyone to be saved then they are obeying our Lords command to love friends and foe alike.

Love and Peace
Dave
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.13.1-7.ESV

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