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Online eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #104 on: April 03, 2021, 07:15:10 PM »

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply it seams that everything boils down to what man in the image of God you say its an ordenary man I say no its not because we have two very good examples in the bible Israel and Christ.
If we take Christ as our prime example I believe it will be completed at his second coming when he is united with his bride his body and they become one what we can deduce from this is man in the image of God is a whole multitude of people under the leadership of Christ.
Doesn't even begin to address the issue, when the man-in-the-image of God was applied to many pre-Israel.

Why should what you say have any influence besides hundreds of bible commentators who are online?

Do you not realize that many of these commentaries are hundreds of years old and have stood the test of time? Why is what you say important when you disagree with nearly all of them?

Just says Noah was a man of faith  says absolutly nothing about him being in the image of God the bible is full of men of faith dose not mean as individuals they are in the image of God but they will be part of that man when Christ returns.
Meaningless. Your man-in-image-of-God had been turned from a mundane teaching into a fully gnostic teaching known only to the "elect."

You don't have to believe me but as a professing Christian you have to believe the scriptures and when the bible says Christ will reign for a thousand years then that's what will happen.
Christ is already reigning. Your problem is that you don't seem to believe that he is.

The only place I get what I say is from the bible
I don't think so.

I don't know what dispensationist propaganda means let alone read.
All dispensationalists are millennialists, like you. The millennium is just one of many dispensations when physicial Israel will be restored.

The first Adam would have been created in the same way as the last Adam a whole multitude of people which all perished in the flood except for Noah and his family.
Men perished, so what? I am sure a lot more died in WWII but did that usher in a new dispensation?

    2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost           

I think you read the whole section.
So the spirit was with men in the OT.

     7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever     


Note verse 7 satan released after a 1000 years thats the millenium
Gog and Magog join satan and they are devoured by the fire from God so Gog and Magog are no more and satan is cast into the lake of fire.
Yes but Gog and Magog exist and stand for pagan barbarians who exist throughout all the ages of the earth. The reason they "join" satan is because they were never believers. They lived alongside believers like weeds exist alongside the wheat. Then at the end of the millennium, the weeds take over the field, as we are increasingly seeing today.

    Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen         
                     
       Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 5:24 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.5.24.ESV                       


Those who are chosen as was the Apostles and those who are called and have accepted Christ as there Lord and Saviour.
I agree.

Don't  know what dispensationist means and to say the millenium is a heresy is to deny the word of God which plainly says that Christ will reign for a thousand years.
A dispensationalist is what you are. Why don't you google it? They also like to use the KJV.

"Dispensationalism is a religious interpretive system and metanarrative for the Bible. It considers biblical history as divided by God into dispensations, defined periods or ages to which God has allotted distinctive administrative principles."
Wiki.

You too have a meta narrative based on man in the image of God, and Israel: features that most take as stepping stones to the biblical exposure of the sons of God and the revelation of Christ, but you want to write a theology and world governance around this. You also add to the bible: you say God had to re-create men in his own image after the flood, because man was no longer in the image of God. What is that, but a meta narrative? Nowhere does the bible say any such thing.

The millennium is a meta narrative about world governance, and Christ returning in person to sit in some new Jerusalem on an old earth: that is a meta narrative as it is not spelt out in the bible, but relies on your misinterpretation of Revelation.

The only true theology concerns Christ and the people of faith, and there are many in the bible who were of faith but weren't "Israel," which name is really just a latterday name for the people of God. As for Christ ruling on earth in person as a human: that is a (deeply flawed) meta narrative. It's not anything that Christ spoke about, or the apostles told people to look forward to.

Can you name me just one other usage of "1000" in the bible which is to be taken in a literal sense?

https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.5.24.ESV

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Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #105 on: April 04, 2021, 11:50:16 AM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply hundreds of years ago when people believed that God created man in 6 days then rested is perfectly correct thats what  I believe there was nothing then to contradict it but now we have science and Darwin.
All I am saying is what people believed years ago that God will create man in his image in 6 day's which are 1000 years long and that this creation began after the flood quite simple really.

Quote
    Christ is already reigning. Your problem is that you don't seem to believe that he is       

Christ has been reigning from the very beginning of creation its through him and for him all things are created why on earth do you think I would not believe it.

Quote
      The only place I get what I say is from the bible

I don't think so.         

Are you saying I'm a lier

Quote
      All dispensationalists are millennialists, like you. The millennium is just one of many dispensations when physicial Israel will be restored         

      Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob           

And not forgetting we have been grafted into Israels tree.

Quote
      Men perished, so what? I am sure a lot more died in WWII but did that usher in a new dispensation       

WW11 was man made the flood was from God to remove the man contaminated by the angles.

Quote
      Yes but Gog and Magog exist and stand for pagan barbarians who exist throughout all the ages of the earth. The reason they "join" satan is because they were never believers. They lived alongside believers like weeds exist alongside the wheat. Then at the end of the millennium, the weeds take over the field, as we are increasingly seeing today       

The main point is that Gog Magog and Satan will be removed.

Quote
       A dispensationalist is what you are. Why don't you google it? They also like to use the KJV         

Dose it really matter what name we go by its whats in our hearts the God looks at and what he is looking for is Love how we arrive at that love is secondary but the most important thing  is that we love God and love our neighbours and our enemies.

        If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.   Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;  it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.  Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.  So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
1 Corinthians 13:1-‬13 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.13.1-13.ESV               


Wonderful words so what we believe is not so important as how we love.


Quote
     Can you name me just one other usage of "1000" in the bible which is to be taken in a literal sense     

       So there were provided, out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand from each tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.
Numbers 31:5 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/num.31.5.ESV         


Love and Peace
Dave
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.13.1-13.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/num.31.5.ESV

Online eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #106 on: April 04, 2021, 05:00:05 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply hundreds of years ago when people believed that God created man in 6 days then rested is perfectly correct thats what  I believe there was nothing then to contradict it but now we have science and Darwin.
All I am saying is what people believed years ago that God will create man in his image in 6 day's which are 1000 years long and that this creation began after the flood quite simple really.
It's not simple, because no-one agrees with you to my knowledge.

You see in the real world, arguments are tested by proofs, by peer review, by consensus. In the bible arguments are tested by whether either Christ or the apostles believed such a position.

In your case, neither holds true. There are no proofs, no peer review, no consensus and no verification from Christ or his apostles or the early church.

Why should anyone credit you? Who are you to demand that people believe in your theories?

Christ has been reigning from the very beginning of creation its through him and for him all things are created why on earth do you think I would not believe it.
If he is reigning then why would he need to come to earth for the millennium? Is it some sort of party?

Are you saying I'm a lier
Millennialism is a big business today in dispensationalist circles ,especially in the USA, and amongst the brethren in the UK, where it originated in the modern era (19th Cent.) with JN Darby. For anyone to say that they "invented it" on the back of Revelation is absurd, when it has been bandied about for the past 200 years. It's especially absurd coming from an internet user, when anyone can look it up on the WW web.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennialism

I'm saying I don't believe that your millennialism didn't come from others, because I don't credit you with operating in isolation for your entire life, even if I find some of the things you say rather unique.

      Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob           

And not forgetting we have been grafted into Israels tree.
A spiritual tree, to be sure, but many branches have also been broken off. That is why I say Israel is but a name for the spiritual children of God, but it isn't to say that before Israel existed as a nation there were not children of God in the world. In other words, the nation of Israel is no longer the focus of God's spiritual affairs.

WW11 was man made the flood was from God to remove the man contaminated by the angles.
As I have said before, those "contaminated" by the angels survived the flood.

Num 13:33 "And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants (nephilim): and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight"

The Hebrew word in Num 13:33 is in strongs "giants, the Nephilim"

So your theory is not correct.

The main point is that Gog Magog and Satan will be removed.
Not so. Satan will be bound, but there is nothing to say that Gog and Magog will not exist during the "millennium."

Dose it really matter what name we go by its whats in our hearts the God looks at and what he is looking for is Love how we arrive at that love is secondary but the most important thing  is that we love God and love our neighbours and our enemies.
The problem with dispensationists that I have known is this:
(a) they spend their entire time on their dispensationist theories and neglect the more important things of God.
(b) their dispensationist theories are invariably contrived, misconceived and yet extremely intricate, and so demand an inordinate amount of time to establish and argue.
(c) consequently dispensationists often make for  immature Christians, if they are Christians at all (idolatry of Israel is not Christianity)
(d) many are so contentious in what they say they believe, because it's a gnosis based topic of infinite subtlety, that they find it hard to fit in with non-dispensationalist churches.
(e) There are more important things in today's world than the latest dispensationalist theory.
(f) Dispensationalism is inherently boring, and off-putting to so may who aren't interested. In other words, it's not a good evangelical tool.

        If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.   Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;  it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.  Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.  So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
1 Corinthians 13:1-‬13 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.13.1-13.ESV               

And yet love does not promulgate man-made doctrines.

Wonderful words so what we believe is not so important as how we love.
I don't agree that "what we believe is not so important" because what we believe will determine how we love.

       So there were provided, out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand from each tribe, twelve thousand armed for war.
Numbers 31:5 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/num.31.5.ESV         

Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon does concede that the Hebrew word may be used of a company of a thousand troops, but it also says: "not unfrequently put for a round number."

I can't see any authority for a literal applicatio to "years."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennialism
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.13.1-13.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/num.31.5.ESV

Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #107 on: April 05, 2021, 01:34:34 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply no one has to agree with me and I don't deman that the do and never have that you making assumptions about me again.
The only proof I need is the word of God wich outweighs the word of man everything I have said is based in scripture if my interpretation is wrong give me a better one.
How bo you interpret Genesis for example.

Quote
   If he is reigning then why would he need to come to earth for the millennium? Is it some sort of party             

He will come and reign for 1000 years because the bible say he will I also believe its the Farthers sabbath rest the last day of this creation.

Quote
     A spiritual tree, to be sure, but many branches have also been broken off. That is why I say Israel is but a name for the spiritual children of God, but it isn't to say that before Israel existed as a nation there were not children of God in the world. In other words, the nation of Israel is no longer the focus of God's spiritual affairs       

Quote
     23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again       

Israel is Gods son and God loves him and God will save him.

Quote
   As I have said before, those "contaminated" by the angels survived the flood               

Never said they didn't all I said was God destroyed the creation before the flood

     4  There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

 5  And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually         


That should settle the matter.

         7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever       


Gog and Magog will be devoured by God.

Quote
      I don't agree that "what we believe is not so important" because what we believe will determine how we love       

I don't agree to Love is the most important if it is dependent on what we believe then it would mean that out of all the different denominations in the world today no one could be saved because the all believe different things the only way we can be saved is through love.

      30  And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

 31  And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these         


To be saved we need to follow these commands to the letter.

Love and Peace
Dave

Online eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #108 on: April 05, 2021, 06:50:36 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply no one has to agree with me and I don't deman that the do and never have that you making assumptions about me again.
The only proof I need is the word of God wich outweighs the word of man everything I have said is based in scripture if my interpretation is wrong give me a better one.
I give you Matthew Henry's commentary on "man in the image of God."

Quote
III. That man was made in God?s image and after his likeness, two words to express the same thing and making each other the more expressive; image and likeness denote the likest image, the nearest resemblance of any of the visible creatures. Man was not made in the likeness of any creature that went before him, but in the likeness of his Creator; yet still between God and man there is an infinite distance. Christ only is the express image of God?s person, as the Son of his Father, having the same nature. It is only some of God?s honour that is put upon man, who is God?s image only as the shadow in the glass, or the king?s impress upon the coin. God?s image upon man consists in these three things:?1. In his nature and constitution, not those of his body (for God has not a body), but those of his soul. This honour indeed God has put upon the body of man, that the Word was made flesh, the Son of God was clothed with a body like ours and will shortly clothe ours with a glory like that of his. And this we may safely say, That he by whom God made the worlds, not only the great world, but man the little world, formed the human body, at the first, according to the platform he designed for himself in the fulness of time. But it is the soul, the great soul, of man, that does especially bear God?s image. The soul is a spirit, an intelligent immortal spirit, an influencing active spirit, herein resembling God, the Father of Spirits, and the soul of the world. The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord. The soul of man, considered in its three noble faculties, understanding, will, and active power, is perhaps the brightest clearest looking-glass in nature, wherein to see God. 2. In his place and authority: Let us make man in our image, and let him have dominion. As he has the government of the inferior creatures, he is, as it were, God?s representative, or viceroy, upon earth; they are not capable of fearing and serving God, therefore God has appointed them to fear and serve man. Yet his government of himself by the freedom of his will has in it more of God?s image than his government of the creatures. 3. In his purity and rectitude. God?s image upon man consists in knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness, Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10. He was upright, Eccl. 7:29. He had an habitual conformity of all his natural powers to the whole will of God. His understanding saw divine things clearly and truly, and there were no errors nor mistakes in his knowledge. His will complied readily and universally with the will o 42ad f God, without reluctancy or resistance. His affections were all regular, and he had no inordinate appetites or passions. His thoughts were easily brought and fixed to the best subjects, and there was no vanity nor ungovernableness in them. All the inferior powers were subject to the dictates and directions of the superior, without any mutiny or rebellion. Thus holy, thus happy, were our first parents, in having the image of God upon them. And this honour, put upon man at first, is a good reason why we should not speak ill one of another (Jas. 3:9), nor do ill one to another (Gen. 9:6), and a good reason why we should not debase ourselves to the service of sin, and why we should devote ourselves to God?s service. But how art thou fallen, O son of the morning! How is this image of God upon man defaced! How small are the remains of it, and how great the ruins of it! The Lord renew it upon our souls by his sanctifying grace!

How bo you interpret Genesis for example.
Strictly as history.

I have no better current interpretation than that of David Rohl: e.g. the Lost Testament (2002). Here Adam was the ruler of a tribe that lived in Eden, located midway between the Caspian sea and the mediterranean and then after being expelled, migrated south towards the Persian gulf.
See https://www.thebiblejourney.org/biblejourney2/23-the-journeys-of-adam-enoch-noah-abraham/adams-journey-from-the-garden-of-eden/


He will come and reign for 1000 years because the bible say he will I also believe its the Farthers sabbath rest the last day of this creation.
Your sentiment conflicts with the bible:

Heb 4:10 "for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from their works, just as God [did] from his."

All the verbs in Heb 4:10 are "Aorist Active Indicative"

The aorist tense is a secondary tense, and accordingly, in the indicative mood it indicates past action.

The inference is that God has already rested from his works, as the past tense is used of God entering into his rest (not the future which you imply).

Israel is Gods son and God loves him and God will save him.
Rom 9:6 "It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel."

Never said they didn't all I said was God destroyed the creation before the flood
Why are you so concerned that man (Israel) carried out God's work of destruction in Canaan?

     4  There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

 5  And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually         


That should settle the matter.
How does it settle it?

         7  And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 8  And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever       


Gog and Magog will be devoured by God.
That is after your "millennium."

I don't agree to Love is the most important if it is dependent on what we believe then it would mean that out of all the different denominations in the world today no one could be saved because the all believe different things the only way we can be saved is through love.
There is commonality in belief. Belief is prerequisite because otherwise love might be imaginary. Denominations are of man, faith is of God. Denominations denote the separateness of man, not necessarily distinctions in real faith.

1Jo 3:23 "And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us."

They are inseperable.

      30  And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

 31  And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these         


To be saved we need to follow these commands to the letter.
They can only be fulfilled spiritually Jhn 4:24 "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.?

https://www.thebiblejourney.org/biblejourney2/23-the-journeys-of-adam-enoch-noah-abraham/adams-journey-from-the-garden-of-eden/

Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #109 on: April 06, 2021, 10:53:46 AM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

Quote
    I give you Matthew Henry's commentary on "man in the image of God       

Thank you interesting read some good points raised but nothing to change my mind.

Quote
       Strictly as history.

I have no better current interpretation than that of David Rohl: e.g. the Lost Testament (2002). Here Adam was the ruler of a tribe that lived in Eden, located midway between the Caspian sea and the mediterranean and then after being expelled, migrated south towards the Persian gulf       

I find nothing in scripture to support the above just the speculation of a man.
The only thing I did find interesting was he said the word Adam means mankind so God said let us make mankind in our image which supports what I say very well.
And this will be achieved in Christ at the end of the millenium.

Quote
     Your sentiment conflicts with the bible:

Heb 4:10 "for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from their works, just as God [did] from his."

All the verbs in Heb 4:10 are "Aorist Active Indicative"

The aorist tense is a secondary tense, and accordingly, in the indicative mood it indicates past action.

The inference is that God has already rested from his works, as the past tense is used of God entering into his rest (not the future which you imply       

       3  For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 4  For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

 5  And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

 6  Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: note

 7  Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

 8  For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. note

 9  There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. note

 10  For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

 11  Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief           


If we read the above we see that we can enter Gods sabbath rest so it must be a future event and I say its Christs millennial reign the 7th day of this creation.
And then we have this from our Lord.

       But Jesus answered them, ?My Father is working until now, and I am working.?
John 5:17 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.5.17.ESV       


So if the Father was still working up to the time Christ said these words I think its safe to say the Fathers sabbath rest is a future event.

Quote
   Gog and Magog will be devoured by God.
That is after your "millennium     

True but satan will be bound for a 1000 years and I assume all those who belong to him the millenium will be a time of peace and love.

Quote
    There is commonality in belief. Belief is prerequisite because otherwise love might be imaginary. Denominations are of man, faith is of God. Denominations denote the separateness of man, not necessarily distinctions in real faith.

1Jo 3:23 "And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us."

They are inseperable         

But love is the greatest without love everything else is meaningless read
1 Corinthians 13:1-‬13 ESV again.

Love and Peace
Dave

https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.5.17.ESV

Online eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #110 on: April 06, 2021, 05:38:25 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

Thank you interesting read some good points raised but nothing to change my mind.
I don't expect to change your mind, as I have come to realize that millennialism and a predisposition to metanarrative is linked to an obsessive desire for esoteric knowledge, and to be admired for it, which is not easily surrendered when it should be. For Christ did not call us for any such purpose. The allure of the esoteric is very powerful. The occult scrolls burnt by the philosophers in Act 19:19 were highly prized - not that I'm making any insinuations except for the price put on the value of esoteric knowledge by its possessors.

I find nothing in scripture to support the above just the speculation of a man.
I was responding to your question as to what I believe about Genesis.

The only thing I did find interesting was he said the word Adam means mankind so God said let us make mankind in our image which supports what I say very well.
OK, I'll certainly not quibble with "mankind" being in the image of God, but I think that mankind was only deemed to be in the image of God from the time of Adam (Luke 3:38), or even Noah, as there must have been some kind of transition from evolutionary homosapiens to mankind.

And this will be achieved in Christ at the end of the millenium.
Nothing in the bible about mankind being more in the image of God than Adam was, at any point in time, except for Christ himself, who facsimile of God's being.

Yet I have no doubt and will not quibble with "image of God" including the spiritual, which is what I think you're getting at.

And yet Adam himself was spiritual, as Christ was. In being called to put on the divine nature, believers also are called to be in the "image of God" in the spiritual sense too, but in this life.

I can't see any further use for the "image of God" concept in the physical realm. At the resurrection of the dead, when the resurrected will be given spiritual bodies per 1 Cor 15:44. Then the concept is redundant because the resurrected are no longer like Adam.

Of course we are called to put on the nature of God 2Pe 1:4, and in some sense what God has confered on the generality of mankind is lost by the unspiritual man, as those without faith are called "brute beasts."

Your idea of tying the "image of God" concept to the millennium however finds no support in 1000 bible commentaries, nor any of the ones I have collected. I can hardly make out what you're saying anyway.

       3  For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 4  For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

 5  And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.

 6  Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: note

 7  Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

 8  For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. note

 9  There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. note

 10  For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

 11  Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief           


If we read the above we see that we can enter Gods sabbath rest so it must be a future event and I say its Christs millennial reign the 7th day of this creation.
I think you have misinterpreted Heb 4:8.

The name "Jesus" is a reference to Joshua of the OT. The name Jesus was substituted in the Bishop's Bible, the Geneva Bible and the KJV, for Joshua. In every other translation, from the Tyndale bible to the modern day, the name Joshua is re-inserted.

What is being spoken of is a spiritual rest derived from obedience to God, which is present.

And then we have this from our Lord.

       But Jesus answered them, ?My Father is working until now, and I am working.?
John 5:17 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.5.17.ESV       


So if the Father was still working up to the time Christ said these words I think its safe to say the Fathers sabbath rest is a future event.
Jesus worked on the Sabbath to save souls. Why shouldn't God work on his Sabbath to save souls?

True but satan will be bound for a 1000 years and I assume all those who belong to him the millenium will be a time of peace and love.
You assume too much. There's still Gog and Magog to make things difficult.  Even more to the point, you deny Jesus' prophecy:

Jhn 16:33  ?I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world.?

You see this millennium lark is really trying to re-write every prophecy of Christ, e.g. as to false Christs, tribulations, sufferings etc. And "peace and love" whilst requisite for the brotherhood of believers, is also going to be emulated in the fraternity of unbelievers.

1Th 5:3 "While people are saying, ?Peace and safety,? destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."

So in some sense this yearning for a thousand years of peace is perhaps liable to be misinterpreted as a carnal prophecy not at all in tune with Christ's own prophecies.

But love is the greatest without love everything else is meaningless read
1 Corinthians 13:1-‬13 ESV again.
The word love (Gk agapē)  is translated as benevolence, charity. However such must be in the Lord, and not at the dictation of man. Otherwise I agree.

Finally you have'nt really answered my question about why the administration of justice to wicked and evil men is incompatible with Christianity. You're so non-committal. It's only recently that man has had the capacity to lock large numbers of people up in prisons for lengthy periods of time. In previously centuries, no such facilities were available, especially not in 1500BC. I really cannot understand how you can impose a duty on ancient Israel to be "nice" to those whom would willingly kill them.

If God can kill the wicked in the flood, why can't God's servants kill Gog and Magog? That is what Christ will do anyway. So not much "peace and love" on the day when he wages war against them.

What I'm getting from you (I may be mistaken) is that secular philosophy that preaches communism and fraternity amongst sinful men is more important than the interests of God, which always opposes them, and condemns them as criminals, for the most part (see end of Romans 1).
https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.5.17.ESV

Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #111 on: April 07, 2021, 06:52:41 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

Quote
        OK, I'll certainly not quibble with "mankind" being in the image of God, but I think that mankind was only deemed to be in the image of God from the time of Adam (Luke 3:38), or even Noah, as there must have been some kind of transition from evolutionary homosapiens to mankind     

As God said mankind in his image it means Adam and Eve could not be just two people.

   44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body     

Good verse you have chosen supports my contention that Israel is the first man in Gods Image the man of flesh comes first then the man of Spirit which is Christ.
We see this in Christ he came into the world as a man and after his resurrection he became a man of spirit and when he is united with his bride and they become one we will have the end of creation mankind in the image of God.

Quote
      Jesus worked on the Sabbath to save souls. Why shouldn't God work on his Sabbath to save souls     

Be cause the bible tells us that God the Father rested on the 7th day and as The Father has been working from the beginning it means his rest is a future event and I say its the last day of this creation Christs millennial reign.

     32  Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. note

 33  These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world         


All Christ is saying is what will happen with his arrest and crucifixion

    2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

 3  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape     


The verse you gave is speaking of the time of the return of our Lord the day of the Lord is the millennial the time leading up to it will be a time of fribulation but when the millenium begins satan will be bound for 1000 years so the millenium will be a time of peace.

Quote
      Finally you have'nt really answered my question about why the administration of justice to wicked and evil men is incompatible with Christianity. You're so non-committal. It's only recently that man has had the capacity to lock large numbers of people up in prisons for lengthy periods of time. In previously centuries, no such facilities were available, especially not in 1500BC. I really cannot understand how you can impose a duty on ancient Israel to be "nice" to those whom would willingly kill them.         

I'll let St Paul answer this.

         1  Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. note

 2  Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

 3  For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

 4  For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

 5  Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

 6  For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

 7  Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

 8  Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law       


Love and Peace
Dave

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