Author Topic: Murder,kill,destroy  (Read 4319 times)

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Offline eik

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Murder,kill,destroy
« on: February 22, 2021, 01:41:26 PM »

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Do not kill the Bible by keeping to the letter and not the Spirit of it.
It all depends on which part of the bible you're talking about. It's a big book with every conceivable type of literature. Some of the books may even be fictional, written as stories to illustrate theological truths. Especially the apocrypha and Daniel and Esther (a historical novella?)

OTOH it's best to take the words of Christ literally.

It all depends.

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Earthman

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2021, 12:20:51 AM »
It all depends on which part of the bible you're talking about. It's a big book with every conceivable type of literature. Some of the books may even be fictional, written as stories to illustrate theological truths. Especially the apocrypha and Daniel and Esther (a historical novella?)

OTOH it's best to take the words of Christ literally.

It all depends.




WATMNBT.

Whether you use Hebrew or Greek or the traditions of the time / There is more than one way to murder and kill/destroy something or a person .. many have ceased living while alive, due to influence over them - since birth.

God in Jesus is the Higher Judge [as it was not so much "what was writtten in the sand - than those  pharisees  who were condemning themselves.

 As there is more than one form of abuse / by society or a person/ or family.

Your tryng to use greek or hebrew - doesn,t really cut it -  as far as I am concerned.




Quote
Some of the books may even be fictional, written as stories to illustrate theological truths. Especially the apocrypha and Daniel and Esther (a historical novella?)

God is trying to speak to us , saying that parts of the bible are fictional - also doesn,t cut it..

Here you are judging what should be and what  shouldn't be and how God evaluates our responses to it.

You are teling us about  murder and  killing  - as you try to  control the argument .

It means you are in control already of something or somebody and you maybe  condemning yourself as you post.




Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2021, 07:07:11 AM »
WATMNBT.
I googled it. It came back with "It looks like there aren't many great matches for your search."


Whether you use Hebrew or Greek or the traditions of the time / There is more than one way to murder and kill/destroy something or a person .. many have ceased living while alive, due to influence over them - since birth.
You mean dead in the spirit, as in "let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:22?

God in Jesus is the Higher Judge [as it was not so much "what was writtten in the sand - than those  pharisees  who were condemning themselves.
It's not self-condemnatory to accuse another of sin, when they have unequivocally sinned. Not to do so would amount to antinomianism i.e. rejection of God's law. The Pharisees were not condemning themselves on this occasion by asking the question, unless they themselves were individually guilty of adultery. That we don't know and the bible doesn't say it. They weren't all guilty of adultery. They just wanted to see what Jesus would do, I guess.

The apostle Paul is not unafraid to judge and excommunicate others for unrepentant immorality 1 Cor 5. Not to do so would be for a church to cease to function as a church of God. If you're seeing John 8 as a licence for churches to accept unrepentant sinners into their congregations in other than a "seeker" capacity, I reject your interpretation of scripture as conflicting with many passages of the NT.

Also, I think this may refer to another thread. Please keep to the thread topic and don't mix up threads. It gets so very confusing.

As there is more than one form of abuse / by society or a person/ or family.
????

Your tryng to use greek or hebrew - doesn,t really cut it -  as far as I am concerned.
I think the use of different Hebrew words, one roughly equivalent to our manslaughter / murder, as used in the ten commandments, the other meaning "smite with or without an intention to kill" is highly relevant.

Unless one goes to the original languages one is not going to understand the issue, on so many occasions.

However, 1Co 14:38 "But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant"

If you want to live in ignorance, as Paul says, it's your choice.

God is trying to speak to us , saying that parts of the bible are fictional - also doesn,t cut it..
Nor does pretending that the bible canon wasn't composed by mere men "cut  it." The bible canon is synthetic and the periphery of it always contentious. That's just the way things are. Different churches use different books. Nor do we really know the criteria that was used for placing books in the bible. Saying a work is fictional isn't to decline to impute it with historical context or theological significance. It doesn't mean it was invented out of thin air. It may even be based on some tradition. It infers that at least some part of a book is synthetic, and written to instruct others in morality or inspire hope.

Also, as with  Enoch, the possible / likely scenario is that Daniel was composed in its final form anonymously by a school of prophets  in the 2nd century BC certainly using more ancient materials and records, of some description. Parts of Daniel are  clearly prophetic and very significant, as also with Enoch, which is strangely missing from most bible canons due to the influence of the Catholic church.  Yet other parts of Daniel seem to have been written from a current knowledge of events in the second century BC.

Here is what "Biblical Archaeologist" says about Esther:

"At  the  very  least,  then,  the  very  pronounced  Persian  elements  in  the  story  of   Esther   provide   setting   and   local   color,   reflecting   the  background,   or   setting,  of  the  originally  separate  stories.  And  at  the  very  most,  the  Persian  elements  provide  the  very  real  possibility  that  some  of  the  plot  in  the  story  of  Esther  is  true.  The  Book  of  Esther  is  an  historical   novel.  Just  as  a  beautiful  pearl  results  from   successive  layers  of  a  colorful,   lustrous  substance   being   added   to  a  solid  grain  of  sand,  so  the  Book  of  Esther  may  very  well  have  a  solid,  historical  core  ?  the  story  of Mordecai,  and  possibly  even  the  story  of  Esther  ?   to  which  have  been  added   a  number   of  legendary  and   fictional   elements,   notably,   the  harem   tale   about   Vashti   and,   quite  possibly,   the   "historical"  basis  for  what  was once  a  non-Jewish  festival,  the  festival  we  now  call  Purim."


https://www.andrews.edu/sem/inministry/uploads/2014coursesyllabi/archaeology_and_esther-moore.pdf

Here you are judging what should be and what  shouldn't be and how God evaluates our responses to it.
1 Corinthians 2:15 "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man."

Yet you expend too much effort judging me. If you disagree fair enough. I expect reasons though. What I found at some baptist churches was judgementalism. It was frankly insufferable; and as you say, the judging of others can be a form of serial abuse and it goes on at churches. That is why I keep my points on topic and academically orientated.

As for "me" judging. I judge no-one here although some teachings such as JW are condemned by many as heretical. I am giving the consensus of some erudite Christian / Jewish scholars who are not in the "young earth creationist school of fanaticism." I don't like such fanatics. Ultimately we will never know the origins of some books in the Jewish canon and some are known to be pseudepigraphic, also in the apocrypha.

The Jews recognized their own scriptures to comprise book of differing degrees of worth. All their books were categorized in the Torah, Prophets ( Nevi'im) and Writings ( Ketuvim). This should be born in mind when we read the bible. Not every book is of the same historical or spiritual value.


You are teling us about  murder and  killing  - as you try to  control the argument .

It means you are in control already of something or somebody and you maybe  condemning yourself as you post.
You're just making it up. I was responding to another's post inferring that biblical ambiguities dictate pacifism. I object to that premise greatly. They don't. It is the English translations that are ambiguous by using the wrong word for the Hebrew word for "murder" in the ten commandments, which doesn't have an exact English equivalent but roughly translates to "the premeditated unsanctioned killing of men leading to criminal culpability."


Thus the KJV translation "Thou shalt not kill" is not an optimum nor even an accurate translation. The better translation is "Thou shalt not murder."

This is backed up by numerous scholars
Quote
"I may not know Hebrew, but I know of many scholars who do, and they all agree that the proper translation of Exodus 20:13 is ?Thou shalt not murder.? As Professor Berel Lang of Trinity College in Hartford, Connecticut has noted:

?The original Hebrew, lo tirtsah., is very clear, since the verb ratsah. means ?murder,? not ?kill.? If the commandment proscribed killing as such, it would position Judaism against capital punishment and make it pacifist even in wartime. These may be defensible or admirable views, but they?re certainly not biblical.?
https://apholt.com/2015/03/17/thou-shalt-not-kill-vs-thou-shalt-not-murder/

https://www.andrews.edu/sem/inministry/uploads/2014coursesyllabi/archaeology_and_esther-moore.pdf
https://apholt.com/2015/03/17/thou-shalt-not-kill-vs-thou-shalt-not-murder/

Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2021, 12:19:01 PM »
Hi
Just wondering about this word kill and all the words of scripture.

       H7523
Original: רצח

Transliteration: râtsach

Phonetic: raw-tsakh'

BDB Definition:

to murder, slay, kill
(Qal) to murder, slay
premeditated
accidental
as avenger
slayer (intentional) (participle)
(Niphal) to be slain
(Piel)
to murder, assassinate
murderer, assassin (participle) (substantive)
(Pual) to be killed
Origin: a primitive root

TWOT entry: 2208

Part(s) of speech: Verb

Strong's Definition: A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er)   


This is Strongs defernition and cas we can see there are different translations of the word kill now you can do this for every word in the bible which means in principle you could you could write no end of bibles all different.
So who decides which translation is the right one man or God if its man's we cannot trust one word of scripture if its God then we can trust every word.
Then we have to ask our selves would the God who loves us make it so hard for us to understand what he wants us to know that we have to spend half our lives learning ancient languages to be able to understand him.
And what we need to remember is the priests and academics of his day where the ones that nailed him to the cross our Lord did not go to them he went to ordenary uneducated men which would indicate you don't need a college education to understand God word and I believe the KJV is a good a translation as you can get.
So when it says         Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill       
It means what it says there are no get out clauses to kill to murder to slay another human being is a sin there is no legitimate reason to do any of these things.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline eik

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2021, 09:47:15 PM »
Hi
Just wondering about this word kill and all the words of scripture.

       H7523
Original: רצח

Transliteration: râtsach

Phonetic: raw-tsakh'

BDB Definition:

to murder, slay, kill
(Qal) to murder, slay
premeditated
accidental
as avenger
slayer (intentional) (participle)
(Niphal) to be slain
(Piel)
to murder, assassinate
murderer, assassin (participle) (substantive)
(Pual) to be killed
Origin: a primitive root

TWOT entry: 2208

Part(s) of speech: Verb

Strong's Definition: A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er)   


This is Strongs defernition and cas we can see there are different translations of the word kill now you can do this for every word in the bible which means in principle you could you could write no end of bibles all different.
So who decides which translation is the right one man or God if its man's we cannot trust one word of scripture if its God then we can trust every word.
Then we have to ask our selves would the God who loves us make it so hard for us to understand what he wants us to know that we have to spend half our lives learning ancient languages to be able to understand him.
And what we need to remember is the priests and academics of his day where the ones that nailed him to the cross our Lord did not go to them he went to ordenary uneducated men which would indicate you don't need a college education to understand God word and I believe the KJV is a good a translation as you can get.
So when it says         Exo 20:13 Thou shalt not kill       
It means what it says there are no get out clauses to kill to murder to slay another human being is a sin there is no legitimate reason to do any of these things.
Non-sequitur as there are plenty of places in the bible in which God orders killing. Don't forget that Saul was put to death because he did not put the Amalekite king to death, and spared their animals.

An infantile approach to biblical interpretation will introduce unsanctioned contradiction. It will reduce the bible to idiocy.

It is obvious why the KJV used "Do not kill." It was done for entirely political reasons, to prevent rebellion against the king, which would soon occur when the likes of Oliver Cromwell overthrew the monarchy.

Quote
God who loves us make it so hard for us to understand what he wants us to know that we have to spend half our lives learning ancient languages to be able to understand him.
The gift of learning and of wisdom is not given to all. Yet you seem to be advocating laziness. God requires worship in "heart soul and mind." This would include being mindful of ancient languages.

As far as "Do not murder is concerned" it is obvious from the bible that the only context of raw-tsakh' is homicide. It is not used in any other context.



Earthman

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2021, 11:59:26 PM »
Sorry too busy - wil try to get back soon .


Earthman

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2021, 02:21:32 AM »


John 10:10  The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

The killing, stealing, destroying - I've run out of time - but look it up..

It is the same as went upon our Lord and Saviour - if it killed Him - then...




Must look after my wife as she is now here - goodnight.


Offline davetaff

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Re: Murder,kill,destroy
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2021, 10:57:58 AM »
Non-sequitur as there are plenty of places in the bible in which God orders killing. Don't forget that Saul was put to death because he did not put the Amalekite king to death, and spared their animals.

         I wonder what Non-sequitur means yes there are lots of instances in the OT where God orders killing I'm reading Jeremiah at the moment and its full of it of course this is the OT and we are under the NT.
In the NT Peter is commanded to kill and eat the meaning being to kill through baptism and to eat to consume into the body of Christ so did God mean the same for Israel.
On the other hand we can look at it from the point of view that everyone will die and God will raise up everyone on the last day.
The law was given to Israel who is the Son of God and they were commanded to obey it to the letter which they did not do and as a result they were rejected on the other hand Christ obeyed the law and was accepted so the question if Israel had obeyed the law would they have been accepted and the law include thou shalt not kill 



An infantile approach to biblical interpretation will introduce unsanctioned contradiction. It will reduce the bible to idiocy.

   what do you expect I'm a child in Christ and what have I said that contradicts scripture or are you saying your the only one who is right       

It is obvious why the KJV used "Do not kill." It was done for entirely political reasons, to prevent rebellion against the king, which would soon occur when the likes of Oliver Cromwell overthrew the monarchy.
The gift of learning and of wisdom is not given to all. Yet you seem to be advocating laziness. God requires worship in "heart soul and mind." This would include being mindful of ancient languages.

Do you honestly believe That the God of all creation is interested in men's petty politics as for education not everyone can have the privilege I certainly did not and like I have said before I don't believe God gave us the bible for only academics to understand

As far as "Do not murder is concerned" it is obvious from the bible that the only context of raw-tsakh' is homicide. It is not used in any other context.

    Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.         

so as the law concerned Christ the last Adam it also concerns  the first Adam Israel and when the law says thou shalt not kill it mean exactly that.
That man has changed the word to murder is so they can justify every other type of killing going to war and blowing each other to bits dropping atom bombs on innocent woman and children

Love and Peace
Dave   



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