Author Topic: Especially those who believe  (Read 1588 times)

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Earthman

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2021, 11:54:57 PM »

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I can see a couple of problems with this video..

1.  People can be in a Church building - but only be their because they have alwasy been brought up in that [I have come across this again and again, while others within the Church have been tested in this life] some never gp through any testing or refining.. as many never go to a Church building - but receive testing and great refinement.

2. God knows who are His - so why would He test ? - Judas - I can't say he was refined or tested [he was merely caught out by God]

King Herod was judged in this life - but it is not for anyone to know what happened to him - in the afterlife - this is not in our power or limits..





Quite why God would cause Judas's stomach to spill out - seems here if you go agianst God - aka = Acts 1:18 (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.


Acts 12:21-23: And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them. And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man. And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost



God does not mess about.. He is not human.. but He was in Jesus.

 So what of those who have never known Him ? and have gone agianst His own - no idea...


It's not for me to judge - or even decoide agianst those who have come against me within the Church..



It's the same argument about delving into "the dead" - all you are doing here is delving inti things that are not meant to be "delved into"

No it's not for you or me to decide about reconciliation [universal reconciliation - has made itself above God and decided for itself - that everyone should be saved



How people live afterlife is neither for us to evaluate - some stay as they are - not able to move on -  some go straight to God..



In the anology of "universal reconcialtion" Hitler goes on alongside - people  who were tortured and tested [not by God but by the Nazis]

Here their is no accountability for what anyone does - as God is love..

Seems more like a human concept to me - that is trying to understand and let itself off .



O we are innocent - trouble is they may  in their turn condemn others.

Reversing God's Kingdom and His Character..




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Offline strobe

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2021, 02:29:57 AM »
I can see a couple of problems with this video..

1.  People can be in a Church building - but only be their because they have alwasy been brought up in that [I have come across this again and again, while others within the Church have been tested in this life] some never gp through any testing or refining.. as many never go to a Church building - but receive testing and great refinement.

2. God knows who are His - so why would He test ? - Judas - I can't say he was refined or tested [he was merely caught out by God]

King Herod was judged in this life - but it is not for anyone to know what happened to him - in the afterlife - this is not in our power or limits..

Of course there are consequences to our actions in this life, I don't see how that contradicts anything.
However God leads us to the kingdom is His business, I confident that whichever way He chooses is best and it may be different between various people but it will be fair, loving, righteous and just for all. We will have the choice to listen and obey Him or ignore Him and I expect that to be no different in the next world. I have the freedom to walk away from Him now or anytime but I've had a foretaste of glory divine and I'm a bit dumb and dozy but not so stupid as to give that vision up for anything I've seen or experienced before.
Love, peace and blessings
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2021, 09:48:14 AM »
They are not my criteria by any means but I think Revelation 19 and 20 answers both these questions.
This video may also help
It's just one video but I can't work out how this link works but I'm fed up with editing it!
I am afraid this is nonsense.

(a) Jesus says that those who do not believe in him are "condemned." John 3:18. So you will need to explain what "condemned" means in the context.
(b) It removes the need for any belief at all, and states that reconciliation can by (a) by sight, (b) by suffering after death without ever saying how the dead can suffer. Yet the only biblical way is by alienation from God, being cast into outer darkness, in the appointed way.
(c) It attempts to hang an entirely new  theology off one single passage "for ever and ever" without addressing all the others passages about "condemnation" from Christ.
(d) When alluding to the place of suffering Jesus didn't use a crucible metaphor but the garbage dump metaphor (gehenna).
(e) It fails to understand God's nature as a holy God who cannot dwell with sin or sinners, and that love is by making provision for faith Roms 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

You're just attempting to re-write the bible.


https://youtu.be/4lHWv4zM7iA

Offline strobe

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2021, 12:40:11 PM »
I am afraid this is nonsense.

(a) Jesus says that those who do not believe in him are "condemned." John 3:18. So you will need to explain what "condemned" means in the context.
(b) It removes the need for any belief at all, and states that reconciliation can by (a) by sight, (b) by suffering after death without ever saying how the dead can suffer. Yet the only biblical way is by alienation from God, being cast into outer darkness, in the appointed way.
(c) It attempts to hang an entirely new  theology off one single passage "for ever and ever" without addressing all the others passages about "condemnation" from Christ.
(d) When alluding to the place of suffering Jesus didn't use a crucible metaphor but the garbage dump metaphor (gehenna).
(e) It fails to understand God's nature as a holy God who cannot dwell with sin or sinners, and that love is by making provision for faith Roms 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

You're just attempting to re-write the bible.

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear the irony!
Have you actually read John 3:18 in its context? Try it now and get back to me if you want.
Are you talking about the theology that you've been hoodwinked into accepting that God is a torturer? A monster, worse than in the worst nightmare imaginable. I reject the 'god' that you think you love and I stand firm on solid ground that God is love and not the evil being that you want Him to be. If I am wrong I will spit in its eye when it sends me down and curse it with my last free breath and every moment in agony for all eternity if that's what it does to me and untold millions of people.
You should be ashamed of yourself for accusing our Father of such horrific things. I know Him better than you do.
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2021, 01:08:38 PM »
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear the irony!
Have you actually read John 3:18 in its context? Try it now and get back to me if you want.
Are you talking about the theology that you've been hoodwinked into accepting that God is a torturer? A monster, worse than in the worst nightmare imaginable. I reject the 'god' that you think you love and I stand firm on solid ground that God is love and not the evil being that you want Him to be. If I am wrong I will spit in its eye when it sends me down and curse it with my last free breath and every moment in agony for all eternity if that's what it does to me and untold millions of people.
You should be ashamed of yourself for accusing our Father of such horrific things. I know Him better than you do.
If you are wrong you won't be doing anything as you'll be in hell. In any case, the only people going to hell are those who walk there themselves. And I know that universal salvation is one of the worst heresies out there. You're preaching that the condemned will be saved. I find no biblical evidence of it, except straw man theories based on gobbledygook about crucibles? Your video ranks in the same category of BS as holocaust deniers (holohoaxers) and every other propagandist. You can't overturn Christianity on just one Greek phrase.

Offline strobe

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2021, 06:38:22 AM »
Quote
If you are wrong you won't be doing anything as you'll be in hell. In any case, the only people going to hell are those who walk there themselves.
And your biblical evidence for that is what exactly?

Quote
And I know that universal salvation is one of the worst heresies out there. You're preaching that the condemned will be saved.
No sir, If I'm preaching anything, it's that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else IN ALL CREATION, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Quote
I find no biblical evidence of it,
Oh don't you? You should try looking sometime. I'll post a list of verses separately to start you off.

Quote
except straw man theories based on gobbledygook about crucibles? Your video ranks in the same category of BS as holocaust deniers (holohoaxers) and every other propagandist.
First of all thanks for explaining what Holocaust denial is, that is a very catchy and memorable moniker for them which I won't be using ever. To bring the Nazis into this is very low quite frankly and when you're accusing our Father of being worse than any of them it becomes darkly comical in a way, the irony really is getting to extreme levels now. By the way, Winston Churchill, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Dwight D. Eisenhower, George Patton and Bernard Montgomery knew the power of propaganda and so levelling that accusation at me is not very effective really. Suggesting that it is "my video" though is a problem. I can not take credit for it I'm sorry to say, I posted a link to it as a quick response to a question from a different poster and if you listen to it you may detect a slight transatlantic twang in the accent of the narrator (whom I don't know personally) I am British and speak English in received pronunciation hailing as I do from this side of the pond and if I ever make a video I will use my own voice to narrate it as I like the sound of it very much. I do, however, recognise gobbledygook when I hear or see it as I have to deal with a lot of it in my life (mostly from people like you who is obviously highly fluent)

Quote
You can't overturn Christianity on just one Greek phrase.
Which phrase is that you mean? The one that most bibles translate as "forever and ever" but actually means "to the age upon age"?
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

Offline strobe

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2021, 06:43:39 AM »
WHY I ACCEPT UNIVERSAL SALVATION

Matthew 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Psalm 22:27-28
All the ends of the earth shall remember
    and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
    shall worship before you.
For kingship belongs to the Lord,
    and he rules over the nations.
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.?
John 12:47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
John 17:2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.
Acts 3:20-21 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.
Romans 3:3-4 What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,
?That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged.?
1 Corinthians 15:22-28 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For ?God has put all things in subjection under his feet.? But when it says, ?all things are put in subjection,? it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
2 Corinthians 5:15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Ephesians 4:10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Colossians 1:19-20 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
1 Timothy 2:4-6 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.
1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.
Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,
Hebrews 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
1 John 2:2, 3:8, 4:14 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
Revelation 5:13, 21:4-5 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honour and glory and might forever and ever!"
He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.? And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
Matthew 19
Now when Jesus had finished these sayings, he went away from Galilee and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan. And large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.
And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?" He answered, "Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'" So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.? They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?" He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery."
The disciples said to him, "If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry."  But he said to them, "Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it."
Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people, but Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven." And he laid his hands on them and went away.
And behold, a man came up to him, saying, ?Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?? And he said to him, ?Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.? He said to him, ?Which ones?? And Jesus said, ?You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.? The young man said to him, ?All these I have kept. What do I still lack?? Jesus said to him, ?If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.? When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
And Jesus said to his disciples, ?Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.? When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, ?Who then can be saved?? But Jesus looked at them and said, ?With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.? Then Peter said in reply, ?See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?? Jesus said to them, ?Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first.

Isaiah 54
?Sing, O barren one, who did not bear;
    break forth into singing and cry aloud,
    you who have not been in labor!
For the children of the desolate one will be more
    than the children of her who is married,? says the Lord.
?Enlarge the place of your tent,
    and let the curtains of your habitations be stretched out;
do not hold back; lengthen your cords
    and strengthen your stakes.
For you will spread abroad to the right and to the left,
    and your offspring will possess the nations
    and will people the desolate cities.
?Fear not, for you will not be ashamed;
    be not confounded, for you will not be disgraced;
for you will forget the shame of your youth,
    and the reproach of your widowhood you will remember no more.
For your Maker is your husband,
    the Lord of hosts is his name;
and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer,
    the God of the whole earth he is called.
For the Lord has called you
    like a wife deserted and grieved in spirit,
like a wife of youth when she is cast off,
    says your God
For a brief moment I deserted you,
    but with great compassion I will gather you.
In overflowing anger for a moment
    I hid my face from you,
but with everlasting love I will have compassion on you,?
    says the Lord, your Redeemer.
?This is like the days of Noah to me:
    as I swore that the waters of Noah
    should no more go over the earth,
so I have sworn that I will not be angry with you,
    and will not rebuke you.
For the mountains may depart
    and the hills be removed,
but my steadfast love shall not depart from you,
    and my covenant of peace shall not be removed,?
    says the Lord, who has compassion on you.
?O afflicted one, storm-tossed and not comforted,
    behold, I will set your stones in antimony,
    and lay your foundations with sapphires.
I will make your pinnacles of agate,
    your gates of carbuncles,
    and all your wall of precious stones.
All your children shall be taught by the Lord,
    and great shall be the peace of your children.
In righteousness you shall be established;
    you shall be far from oppression, for you shall not fear;
    and from terror, for it shall not come near you.
If anyone stirs up strife,
    it is not from me;
whoever stirs up strife with you
    shall fall because of you.
Behold, I have created the smith
    who blows the fire of coals
    and produces a weapon for its purpose.
I have also created the ravager to destroy;
    no weapon that is fashioned against you shall succeed,
    and you shall refute every tongue that rises against you in judgment.
This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord
    and their vindication from me, declares the Lord.?
 
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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #55 on: February 13, 2021, 10:10:09 AM »
And your biblical evidence for that is what exactly?
Rom 9:22


No sir, If I'm preaching anything, it's that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else IN ALL CREATION, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Paul was talking to those of orthodox doctrine.    Psa 94:23



Oh don't you? You should try looking sometime. I'll post a list of verses separately to start you off.
First of all thanks for explaining what Holocaust denial is, that is a very catchy and memorable moniker for them which I won't be using ever. To bring the Nazis into this is very low quite frankly and when you're accusing our Father of being worse than any of them it becomes darkly comical in a way, the irony really is getting to extreme levels now. By the way, Winston Churchill, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Dwight D. Eisenhower, George Patton and Bernard Montgomery knew the power of propaganda and so levelling that accusation at me is not very effective really. Suggesting that it is "my video" though is a problem. I can not take credit for it I'm sorry to say, I posted a link to it as a quick response to a question from a different poster and if you listen to it you may detect a slight transatlantic twang in the accent of the narrator (whom I don't know personally) I am British and speak English in received pronunciation hailing as I do from this side of the pond and if I ever make a video I will use my own voice to narrate it as I like the sound of it very much. I do, however, recognise gobbledygook when I hear or see it as I have to deal with a lot of it in my life (mostly from people like you who is obviously highly fluent)
I am Anglo-Irish. I wasn't intending to invoke Nazism per se. I was intending  to refer to a species of propaganda, which may also be termed Gish-gallop today, reflected in the particular branch of modern holocaust denial sourced from America purporting to deny the holocaust on the basis of spurious mathematical equations, spurious chemistry, spurious data and other specious nonsense. Such videos may have been removed from youtube by now. 15 years ago there were many of them, going into great detail about all kinds of alleged misinformation in the accepted science, but which were extremely misleading, wrong, and basically discreditable propaganda.

The same style of propaganda is seen in young earth creationist propaganda.

Which phrase is that you mean? The one that most bibles translate as "forever and ever" but actually means "to the age upon age"?
Yes. It's just a question of understanding what the Greek means. Greek has idioms as well as English.  Although the translation is not exact it doesn't mean to say that idiomatic transliteration is wrong where Greek has no other way of expressing what was being intended.

Also the crucible point. I found it to be not well made out. It seems to me that whether the author was intending to portray a crucible or lake wasn't material. What was material was whom was to be cast into it. Unfortunately men are not made to survive such an experience.

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