Author Topic: Especially those who believe  (Read 1581 times)

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Earthman

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2021, 11:50:27 PM »

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Being in the image of God surely must mean we know good and evil, are free to do either but strong enough only to choose good and resist evil
?

Ahh well - not quite sure what your getting at  here - [ yes that is the example of a normal person]


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Offline strobe

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2021, 11:06:29 AM »
"body and soul" Matt 10:28. There would seem to be two outcomes depending on how you understand the gehenna concept. (a) it is of itself permanent, (b) it is semi-permanent until the day of judgement, upon which it is replaced by the lake of fire and total annihilation prepared for the devil and his angels.
Okay so that begs the question, how can one "weep and gnash one's teeth" with no body or soul? It sounds like an awful thing to endure to me and if God is going either to make people endure this forever with no hope of respite, escape or redemption or to make people endure it only for a period before killing them permanently then it brings me back to my original question: what about all the people who lived before Jesus? How does God deal with them?
No one comes to the Father except through the Son if I remember correctly, so they can't be saved from the above fate without Jesus. But you have said that not all unbelievers are unsaved, which means some of them are saved. How can this be?
The simple fact is God desires ALL people to be reconciled to Him through His son and God will achieve everything He desires. Jesus' victory was far greater than you know and the Good News is far better than you have given Him credit for. God will achieve everything He desires and ALL people WILL be reconciled through Jesus.
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

Offline eik

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2021, 11:55:17 AM »
Okay so that begs the question, how can one "weep and gnash one's teeth" with no body or soul? It sounds like an awful thing to endure to me and if God is going either to make people endure this forever with no hope of respite, escape or redemption or to make people endure it only for a period before killing them permanently then it brings me back to my original question: what about all the people who lived before Jesus? How does God deal with them?
The answer is we don't know, but we suspect that a more lenient standard of judgement will be applied to them, where the gospel wasn't preached to them. For sin is defined by law, as you recall, but if there is no law, then sin will not be taken into account. Human death is the penalty for sin in this life. What happens in the afterlife we don't know. But we shouldn't imagine that everyone in the ancient world was incurably immoral. Clearly that wasn't so. There will be plenty of oppressed etc warranting the favour of God on the day of judgement.

Rom 5:13 "For sin was in the world before the law was given; but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who did not sin in the way that Adam transgressed. He is a pattern of the One to come.?"

The point is this: we are not in that position and most others aren't either. We are in a far clearer position of "believe or perish" as Christ said in Luke 13:5.

No one comes to the Father except through the Son if I remember correctly, so they can't be saved from the above fate without Jesus. But you have said that not all unbelievers are unsaved, which means some of them are saved. How can this be?
The law that Jesus quoted didn't necessarily apply only to his human life. It likely applied to all believers down the ages, which is to say, Jesus calls all who will believe in God, whether from heaven or from earth, for "the Word was with God, and the Word was God &etc," although I also concede that it is the Father who gives believers to Christ (John's gospel somewhere).

The simple fact is God desires ALL people to be reconciled to Him through His son and God will achieve everything He desires. Jesus' victory was far greater than you know and the Good News is far better than you have given Him credit for. God will achieve everything He desires and ALL people WILL be reconciled through Jesus.
That isn't the teaching of Jesus:

Mat 7:13 "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

Offline strobe

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2021, 01:03:57 PM »
Ahh well - not quite sure what your getting at  here - [ yes that is the example of a normal person]
I beg your pardon, I will try to inform you of where I am in my thinking.
We are not made in God's image, we are being made into God's Image. God's creation is not yet complete but soon will be. Once we are in the image of God, we will not be tempted to choose evil although we will know what it is.
That is why I think the fall of Adam was God's plan from the beginning. He was meant to eat the forbidden fruit so that God's plan could come to pass.
God's work for day six of creation, which is where we are now is to make man in His image. Then comes the Sabbatical reign. Then (I think) the work starts again which may very well be the judgement and liberating the spirits from prison which will be all those who didn't share in the wedding feast of the lamb although I am not clear on this.
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

Earthman

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2021, 04:09:06 PM »
I beg your pardon, I will try to inform you of where I am in my thinking.
We are not made in God's image, we are being made into God's Image. God's creation is not yet complete but soon will be. Once we are in the image of God, we will not be tempted to choose evil although we will know what it is.
That is why I think the fall of Adam was God's plan from the beginning. He was meant to eat the forbidden fruit so that God's plan could come to pass.
God's work for day six of creation, which is where we are now is to make man in His image. Then comes the Sabbatical reign. Then (I think) the work starts again which may very well be the judgement and liberating the spirits from prison which will be all those who didn't share in the wedding feast of the lamb although I am not clear on this.

Yes and why would God reshape/mould/begin His creation work in you - only to leave you behind...


Good topic.



Reminds me of the old larry norman song...


Quote
Life was filled with guns and war
And everyone got trampled on the floor
I wish we'd all been ready
Children died the days grew cold
A piece of bread could buy a bag of gold
I wish we'd all been ready
There's no time to change your mind
The son has come and you've been left behind
A man and wife asleep in bed
She hears a noise and turns her head
He's gone
I wish we'd all been ready
Two men walking up a hill
One disappears and one's left standing still
I wish we'd all been ready
There's no time to change your mind
The son has come and you've been left behind
Life was filled with guns and war
And everyone got trampled on the floor
I wish we'd all been ready



Earthman

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2021, 12:34:04 AM »
Quote
Gnashing of teeth
yes God can appear in many forms..

The enemy also appears in many forms as he imitates and so do people..he uses.

Re; pastor Amos ... Matthew 7:21 to 23 21 ?Not everyone who calls me Lord will enter God?s kingdom. The only people who will enter are those who do what my Father in heaven wants. 22 On that last Day many will call me Lord. They will say, ?Lord, Lord, by the power of your name we spoke for God. And by your name we forced out demons and did many miracles.? 23 Then I will tell those people clearly, ?Get away from me, you people who do wrong. I never knew you.?



Offline strobe

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2021, 01:12:23 AM »
Here is a verse to consider: Revelation 20v6:
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
So many questions! "Why will God need priests in those days?" is one that springs to mind.
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

Earthman

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2021, 01:21:59 AM »
Here is a verse to consider: Revelation 20v6:
Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
So many questions! "Why will God need priests in those days?" is one that springs to mind.

Thanjk you so much for this - I will consider this and humbly reply..


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