Author Topic: Especially those who believe  (Read 1580 times)

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Offline strobe

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Especially those who believe
« on: February 05, 2021, 07:04:08 AM »

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If universal salvation isn't true, what will happen to all the people who lived before Jesus?
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

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Offline eik

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2021, 06:54:09 PM »
If universal salvation isn't true, what will happen to all the people who lived before Jesus?
What will happen to all people of an Adamic heritage?  They will all be judged: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad." 2 Cor 5:10.

How severely will the people who lived before & after Jesus be penalized who sinned but did not know God or his law?  Less severely than those who do, for "Sin is not charged, where there is no law..." Romans 5:13. 

Is universal salvation true? No.

Are those who did not know Jesus or who are not Jews automatically unsaved? No (cf. Cornelius the Roman centurion whose good deeds came up before God even though not a Jew), and the many righteous people who predated the Jews.

What will happen to pagans? No one really knows, except for the notoriously wicked, whose sins run before them (1 Tim 5:12). It's not for Christians to judge those not in the church (unless their sins run before them when they are self-condemned). "God will judge those on the outside."1 Cor 5:12

Offline strobe

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2021, 11:49:28 PM »
What will happen to all people of an Adamic heritage?  They will all be judged: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad." 2 Cor 5:10.

How severely will the people who lived before & after Jesus be penalized who sinned but did not know God or his law?  Less severely than those who do, for "Sin is not charged, where there is no law..." Romans 5:13. 

Is universal salvation true? No.

Are those who did not know Jesus or who are not Jews automatically unsaved? No (cf. Cornelius the Roman centurion whose good deeds came up before God even though not a Jew), and the many righteous people who predated the Jews.

What will happen to pagans? No one really knows, except for the notoriously wicked, whose sins run before them (1 Tim 5:12). It's not for Christians to judge those not in the church (unless their sins run before them when they are self-condemned). "God will judge those on the outside."1 Cor 5:12

But Ephesians 2:9 says it's "Not of works, lest any man should boast."
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

Earthman

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2021, 12:37:51 AM »
This argument is as old as time..

Both Abel and cain believed in God /Jesus/ Cain  produced something that was not pleasing to God and able other something that was pleasing..

Cain killed Abel .. simple.

Cain died and abel lived for a short time / hopefuly being led to be with the Lord..

The bible doesn.t say - if he went into eternal life..



Offline strobe

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2021, 03:29:24 AM »
This argument is as old as time..

Both Abel and cain believed in God /Jesus/ Cain  produced something that was not pleasing to God and able other something that was pleasing..

Cain killed Abel .. simple.

Cain died and abel lived for a short time / hopefuly being led to be with the Lord..

The bible doesn.t say - if he went into eternal life..



The skins that covered Adam and Eve were the shedding of blood [of an aniimal] -  but it is a foreshadow ...  OT..



I have witnessed hundreds  who believe  - but they have killed their Abel..

Believing is only the begining - action is a start - Faith is another - but relationship is something quite different.

 Do you know you can go in and out of relationship ?

Have you ever sang a song and then realized that God responded ?

Have ypu ever had a season when God just spoke through you ?

That is relationship - not just believing as demons do - not just having faith [which depends on what God did years ago and what He said] - not just action as in


I partnered with someone who was unequally yoked and I paid the price for that - he was of the flesh - but he believed .

He boasted to me recently about how much work he had [works] I dismissed it- as boasting..

Thier are a lot of people out there doing the same.

i recently met a gardner - who gave me his cards ..

I gave one of thee cards - to one of my customers..

She said "I asked him for this service - "but he charges 50 pounds per hour?"

I mean this guy has'nt got much "work" - but when  he does get work - he earns ....

I'm really sorry but (and I promise I've tried) I fail to see how this is an answer to my question. Can I ask you please to put it in simpler terms?
With God's blessings and my very warm regards.
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

Offline eik

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2021, 08:51:33 AM »
But Ephesians 2:9 says it's "Not of works, lest any man should boast."
That is referring to the specific doctrine of being justified by faith in Christ. It is not referring to the judgement of all men at the end of time. The one who is justified, is not justified by works, but will produce good works, for "faith without deeds is dead." James 2:17.

There is no basis for hyper-calvinism, or faith without works, i.e. faith through some gnostic knowledge of self-predestination, which is incredibly deceptive and which the apostles always warn against (2 Cor 13:5).  Faith is demonstrated in good works although not necessarily what you might expect. What a "good work" is, in this political age of social security and communist idealism, is frequently confounded with secular communism. There is no communism in Christianity. There is only "good works." Good works must benefit the true church. Those will be remembered in the day of judgement. The promotion of unbelievers into positions of power will not, as that is not commanded of Christians.

Offline strobe

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2021, 12:12:38 PM »
Thanks for the reply!

That is referring to the specific doctrine of being justified by faith in Christ. It is not referring to the judgement of all men at the end of time. The one who is justified, is not justified by works, but will produce good works, for "faith without deeds is dead." James 2:17.

There is no basis for hyper-calvinism, or faith without works, i.e. faith through some gnostic knowledge of self-predestination, which is incredibly deceptive and which the apostles always warn against (2 Cor 13:5).  Faith is demonstrated in good works although not necessarily what you might expect. What a "good work" is, in this political age of social security and communist idealism, is frequently confounded with secular communism. There is no communism in Christianity. There is only "good works." Good works must benefit the true church. Those will be remembered in the day of judgement. The promotion of unbelievers into positions of power will not, as that is not commanded of Christians.

So is there a difference between being "justified by faith in Christ" and "saved"? If so, what exactly is that difference and if not, how can you have both:
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Are those who did not know Jesus or who are not Jews automatically unsaved? No
and
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The one who is justified, is not justified by works, but will produce good works, for "faith without deeds is dead.
Also, I am not quite understanding your point
Quote
How severely will the people who lived before & after Jesus be penalized who sinned but did not know God or his law?  Less severely than those who do, for "Sin is not charged, where there is no law..."
I would humbly ask you to expand upon this, specifically what exactly is the penalty or, at least, once the penalty is paid, then what?
Warm regards, love and blessings
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

Offline eik

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Re: Especially those who believe
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2021, 01:13:39 PM »
Thanks for the reply!

So is there a difference between being "justified by faith in Christ" and "saved"? If so, what exactly is that difference and if not, how can you have both:
First when I said "judgement by works" I didn't necessarily infer that assessment of salvation will be determined according to your works on the last day. 1Co 3:15. For the believer the day of judgement is the day of reward. A believer's life will guarantee their salvation.

Jesus clearly states that salvation comes with repentance, but equally Jesus clearly states that it can be lost through lack of reciprocal forgiveness, or unbelief. Matt 18:35. So there is also the concept of being unsaved through relapse into non Christian practices. For all temporal salvation is understood to be just that: temporal. It doesn't mean to say it's not real and substantial but it remains temporal until the last day.

andAlso, I am not quite understanding your pointI would humbly ask you to expand upon this, specifically what exactly is the penalty or, at least, once the penalty is paid, then what?
Warm regards, love and blessings
The penalty for those outside the church? It will be according to works, except for those who have refused to believe whom are self-condemned Jhn 3:18.

What is the penalty? The forfeiture of eternal life, and destuction in hell. But  hell is reserved for the wicked. So the unbelievers who have kept themselves pure, whose lack of knowledge of Christ is based on some misrepresentation of Christ: their fate is in the hands of a just God, not an arbitrary God. God is never arbitrary.

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