Author Topic: Man in the image of God / day of rest / millennial reign of Christ on earth?  (Read 14270 times)

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Earthman

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Not necessarily to "earth" because there are billions of stars in the universe. More especially 1 Cor 2:9 "What no eye has seen, and no ear has heard, and has not entered into heart of man, what God has prepared for those loving Him."
?

God chose His footstool [earth] to nail Himself to a Cross - when as you say "their are billions of stars". [ well not all planets are
stars.. they merely reflect a stars light..

Of course Dave  is right with -
Quote
Thank you for your reply as for academics and the translation of scripture it is my belief that an academic held the pen but God through the Spirit dictated what he wrote.


Dave  is correct - as God uses anyone from living in poverty as in Daniel 2:21 to King Solomon . so God brought Elijah to a widow living in poverty =

1 Kings 17:7-16




So Elisha [getting personal now [ not just earth but personal relationship] "not alien"  = 2 Kings 4:34 Then he got on the bed and lay on the boy, mouth to mouth, eyes to eyes, hands to hands. As he stretched himself out on him, the boy's body grew warm.


This is on the earth ..  God lying face to face - mouth to mouth .

In the same way God layed - face to face and breathed His Spirit into Adam - face to face - hand to hand and eye to eye.



I am not sure how Adam or Eve were academic.

Moses wrote the first parchments/ scrolls/ and again as Dave said "it was inspired by the Holy Spirit"


Moses wrote the first five books of the bible !

There is no way Moses would have lived next to Adam and Eve or annyone else  before his time [how could Moses know the begining of creation ?]

Or any of the first five books of the bible [on Earth]  =  Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers,  REALLY ?

Moses knew about things before they happened..

WOW  - Moses knew about Adam and Eve - and knew how it all began..

No sorry does'nt sound like anyone I know...  it's all alien to me..

 I want to be face to face / mouth to mouth and eye to eye..






Offline eik

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?

God chose His footstool [earth] to nail Himself to a Cross - when as you say "their are billions of stars". [ well not all planets are
stars.. they merely reflect a stars light..

Of course Dave  is right with -

Dave  is correct - as God uses anyone from living in poverty as in Daniel 2:21 to King Solomon . so God brought Elijah to a widow living in poverty =

1 Kings 17:7-16




So Elisha [getting personal now [ not just earth but personal relationship] "not alien"  = 2 Kings 4:34 Then he got on the bed and lay on the boy, mouth to mouth, eyes to eyes, hands to hands. As he stretched himself out on him, the boy's body grew warm.


This is on the earth ..  God lying face to face - mouth to mouth .

In the same way God layed - face to face and breathed His Spirit into Adam - face to face - hand to hand and eye to eye.



I am not sure how Adam or Eve were academic.
They were given the ordinances of God and to them was given the knowledge of God.


Moses wrote the first parchments/ scrolls/ and again as Dave said "it was inspired by the Holy Spirit"

Moses wrote the first five books of the bible !
Moses was certainly an academic.

Acts 7:22 "Moses was taught all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and he was powerful in both speech and action."


There is no way Moses would have lived next to Adam and Eve or annyone else  before his time [how could Moses know the begining of creation ?]

Or any of the first five books of the bible [on Earth]  =  Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers,  REALLY ?

Moses knew about things before they happened..

WOW  - Moses knew about Adam and Eve - and knew how it all began..
The Sumerian civilization which Adam and Eve were the progenitors of was older than the Egyptian. Moses could know about Adam and Eve because he had access to Sumerian records, for the Egypt civilization derived from the Sumerian.

Offline eik

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply as for academics and the translation of scripture it is my belief that an academic held the pen but God through the Spirit dictated what he wrote.
As for books written by them and theologians in general I have read quite a few I have about 30 to 40 on my kindle and they all seam to be saying different things there dose not seam to be any concensus of opinion and much of what they say I do not understand due to my lack of education.
The one day I woke up and put all these books to one side and said  to myself how dose Gods word speak to me so I sat down opened my bible and read it from cover to cover and have never looked back what I write on here is how Gods word speaks to me.
And basically what it says to me is the whole of scripture and the history of man kind are all wrapped up in th creation account in Genesis and creation is ongoing.
I would say that mankind's civilization & scientific process is ongoing, but I don't think there has been much creation going on as of late, even if the import/export of species between continents and regions seems to be an evolving trend, with the increase in world wide trade, leading to mutant strains appearing, and the continual mutation / evolution of natural eco systems. Thus hippos have been transported to South America and are now interfering with natural species there, despite there being not that many numerically. I think today it's so often a case of man destroying what God has created. So many species of everything are going extinct due to mankind.

As for a new creation starting with Noah I am not talking about the creation of everything everything God needed was on the ark the only thing missing was man in the image of God and Noah was not it.
Why was Noah not in the image of God? I take your point that the wicked are like brute beasts in the bible, but I'm not sure if can really be said that mere sinners cease being in the image of God, for if it was not so, how could they be punished by God?

Can a man really unmake himself? That is a philosophical question that the bible doesn't provide an answer to. The term "image of God" is not defined except in terms of Adam and Eve, and their dominion over the planet, and they still both sinned but didn't entirely lose dominion, except they did lose access to the garden of Eden and the exercise of their dominion was made far more difficult.

It doesn't say they ceased being in the image of God at the point of disobedience. I personally wouldn't go so far as to declare any sinner to be not in the image of God.

I think the "image of God" once introduced was irrevocable, just like the gospel is irrevocable. Everything God does is irrevocable. If you live within the framework of knowledge of the gospel, then as Christ said, you are condemned if you don't believe it. So you are taken to be in the image of God even if you refuse to believe, so that punishment can be meted out. Did Cain stop being in the image of God? Not so, because God put his mark on Cain.

Noah and everything that was on the ark was for the repopulation of the earth when there were enough people God began the creation of man in his image with Abraham which eventually ended up with Israel Israel is man ( mankind ) in the image of God.
Scholars e.g. Rohl see the Noah episode as too limited to embrace the whole world. It extended to Sumerian civilization which had become corrupted. This was then the focal point of much of the world's civilization. It was remade spiritually. It doesn't mean to say that Noah and his company were the only humans to be found on the planet after the flood. For Noah, Sumer and its environs was the whole world.

It's also important to understand that these ancient characters were kings and powerful rulers. They likely had many inferior servants working for them whom the bible doesn't necessarily mention. The size of the ark would have take a huge construction team and I guess housed many more than 8 human beings. Noah and his family was the only ruler or principal man to be saved.

Its interesting That Christ follows the same path as Israel we also have the scripture " out of Egypt I called my son " which makes Israel and Christ Gods son and as such they are created in his likeness.
 another interesting point is if this is true then they can be seen as brothers which bringe the story of Cain and able to the for the older brother kills the younger.
The only problem with all this is its far to simple anyone can understand it so if you believe God created man in 6 days then this is perfectly correct its a done deal and will be realised in Christ Jesus at his coming.
The bible entertains the concept of disinheritance. Esau was disinherited. Cain was disinherited. Israel as a nation State was disinherited. The Israelites who passed through the Red Sea were also disinherited. So I would see those being made in God's likeness being disinherited, rather than being "unmade" in God's likeness. Romans 11:29 "For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable."

As Paul says, the Jews still have many advantages over Gentiles, due to their legacy as the children of God. Roms 3:1,2; Roms 9:4,5.

You are quite right nobody knows when the end will come only the Father but if what I say right then we are towards the end of the 6th day but its impossible to be precise but I think its always best to believe it will be today.

As for the Sabbath day I think to give a day to the Lord is a good thing it dose not to be a Sunday any day will do.

As for the millennium reign of Christ this is God the Fathers Sabbath rest he leaves everything over to Christ to finish the creation.
This is Gods Sabbath rest we can enter into it is a future event as is made clear in scripture.

       Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world   

I think you are forgetting why man in Gods image is created.

    Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth     

We are created to take care of this wonderful planet that God has created for us.
I concur that dominion is an essential part of being in God's image.

As for God the Father and Jesus Christ the Father is the Father and Christ is his son the Holy Spirit flows from the Father through the son and the body of believers.

And Christ will reign here on earth for 1000 years according to scripture

      Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years       
As I have said, the "reign of the risen" Christ is from heaven. That it is jointly with the saints is not to bring Christ down from heaven, but to raise the saints up to heaven.


Offline davetaff

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply I don't think I'm making my self very clear the only thing God is creating after flood is man in his image nothing else.
We really need to understand what God means when he says " man in the image of God " I believe the word man should be sean as mankind it is the whole of mankind under the King ship and priesthood of Jesus Christ at the end of the millenium which Christ hands over to the Father this is man in the image of God the end of creation.

Noah was just one man but the scriptures tell us that Jesus Christ  is the express image of the Father and I believe this will be when he is united with his bride and they become one this is man in Gods image.

We are told that Christ is the last Adam which would mean he would be created in the same way as the first Adam which would mean that the first Adam and Eve  would have been a whole host of people under one head.
But we know the first Adam and Eve were destroyed in the flood I think manly because of the angels that came down and contaminated mankind.
So God began again to create mankind in his image and this in the first instance was Israel I find it strange that everyone seems to ignore Israel I mean why did God create them what was their purpose.

      When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
Hosea 11:1 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/hos.11.1.ESV       


Why do people ignore these scriptures if Israel is Gods son then he is the image of his Father and as such the elder brother  of Christ and the elder kills the younger all pretty simple.

What scholars have to say I take with a pinch of salt if the bible says there were 8 people on the ark then there were 8 people on the ark interesting to note only Noah was said to be righteous.

Yes many where disinherited because they could not attain to Gods laws an statutes but now we have been given a better way Love an forgiveness  if we Love God and Love our neighbours we fulfil the law.

Quote
    As I have said, the "reign of the risen" Christ is from heaven. That it is jointly with the saints is not to bring Christ down from heaven, but to raise the saints up to heaven     

We will have to differ on this point unless you can prove it from scripture
Christ shall reign for 1000 years here on earth.

Love and Peace
Dave
https://bible.com/bible/59/hos.11.1.ESV

Offline eik

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply I don't think I'm making my self very clear the only thing God is creating after flood is man in his image nothing else.
Thank you for your reply, Dave. My beef is that your theory isn't worded as well as it might be, and so in danger of being seen as an addition to scripture, not an explanation of it, for that reason alone. Although I think I can better grasp it from what you have now said.

To be made in the "image of God" means to be given dominion, even moral dominion, which mankind always retained after Adam. It's not anything God ever took away from mankind. Rather mankind was punished at the time of Noah, just because he had been "made in the image of God."

You are talking about the knowledge of God, the spiritual imprint of God, I think.

We really need to understand what God means when he says " man in the image of God " I believe the word man should be sean as mankind it is the whole of mankind under the King ship and priesthood of Jesus Christ at the end of the millenium which Christ hands over to the Father this is man in the image of God the end of creation.
I disagree, because at the time that man was made in the image of God Jesus Christ had not yet appeared and wasn't a priest.

You are talking about becoming an adopted son of God, which is different "image" concept from the image of how mankind was originally constituted.  It's a spiritual concept to be distinguish from the secular concept.

Although Adam was himself a son of God, Luke 3:38, by being in the image of God, the sonship of Christ is rather a different concept, because it entails spiritual similitude, and receiving an inheritance that is far better than the angels, whereas Adam's sonship entailed only temporal dominion.



Noah was just one man but the scriptures tell us that Jesus Christ  is the express image of the Father and I believe this will be when he is united with his bride and they become one this is man in Gods image.
Jesus was the imprint or facsimile of the Father per Hebrews, which cannot be said for Adam, as he knew not good and evil.

I don't disagree that Jesus is the "image" of God, but I don't think it's the right word because it confounds Adam (mankind ) as in the secular image of God in Genesis with Christ, who was the begotten spiritual son of God.

So I would prefer "imprint" or "facsimile" when used of Christ (that is what the Greek word means anyway), rather than just "image" which is too secular, because the Hebrew image concept extends to the likeness of any father to his son, which may not be an exact likeness.

We are told that Christ is the last Adam which would mean he would be created in the same way as the first Adam which would mean that the first Adam and Eve  would have been a whole host of people under one head.
But we know the first Adam and Eve were destroyed in the flood I think manly because of the angels that came down and contaminated mankind.
But they weren't all destroyed. Noah et al survived, who was descended from Adam.

So God began again to create mankind in his image and this in the first instance was Israel I find it strange that everyone seems to ignore Israel I mean why did God create them what was their purpose.
This is where I don't agree with you. God preserved the knowledge of himself in the line of Noah. In fact the knowledge of the true God was preserved right down from Adam and Eve to Abraham, the man of faith. It would be wrong to say that the knowledge of "Enki/Ea," as he was known in Sumer, entirely disappeared, although he became incorporated into the general apostasy of pluralism and polytheism, much like Christ today is just one of a number of "cultural" gods alongside Mahoment etc but his knowledge is retained by a faithful few.

So it would be wrong to say that man stopped being in the image of God, in the secular Adamic sense, or ceased to retain the knowledge of God, in the spiritual sense.

      When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
Hosea 11:1 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/hos.11.1.ESV       


Why do people ignore these scriptures if Israel is Gods son then he is the image of his Father and as such the elder brother  of Christ and the elder kills the younger all pretty simple.
So "son" has a particular spiritual connotation when used of God, but it is also has specific reference to powerful rulers also called sons of God. Ps. 82:6. When Adam was created he had not sinned.

So it can refer to those particularly chosen by God in a special sense.

I think you have to recognize the diverse ways in which "son" is used in scripture. They aren't all quite the same.

Jesus of course was a "begotten" son of God, so he was a rather different son of God to other sons of God

What scholars have to say I take with a pinch of salt if the bible says there were 8 people on the ark then there were 8 people on the ark interesting to note only Noah was said to be righteous.
We have to recognize that the bible is not a history of pagan peoples,  but a history of the lineage of the people of God, and specifically those chosen by God, and with especial roles to play. It may be so that there were only 8 people on the ark. Or on the other hand, it may be that the servants of Noah were simply omitted. Just as in the story of Abraham in Canaan, one might think one was dealing with one man and his family, until in one verse it suddenly says that Abraham had 318 fighting men, so possibly a retinue of at least 1000 people in total. Likewise the sons of Israel when they went into Egypt.

We have to grasp that only eight souls were involved in the salvation of mankind through Noah. We just don't known anything about his servants, whom likely numbered hundreds to build an ark "that" big. Noah's ark was huge, a gigantic structure even by our own standard.

Yes many where disinherited because they could not attain to Gods laws an statutes but now we have been given a better way Love an forgiveness  if we Love God and Love our neighbours we fulfil the law.

We will have to differ on this point unless you can prove it from scripture
Christ shall reign for 1000 years here on earth.
I'm sorry but there is no verse in the bible that says what you have just said. You are required to produce rationale for defining why Christ needs to reign on earth when he is more than capable of reigning from heaven, which rationale you haven't yet produced. Also your theory directly conflicts with Heb "Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him."

Salavation is in the new heavens and the new earth, with the present earth being assigned to the destruction of the wicked.

https://bible.com/bible/59/hos.11.1.ESV

Offline davetaff

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply sorry to be a pain but I would like to take a look at this millennium question I believe its very important to get it right.

     Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain

Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain

Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain       


If you read carefully through the above verses you you will see That Christ will rule from Jerusalem here on earth.
If you have scripture that cancel these out please give them.

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  I disagree, because at the time that man was made in the image of God Jesus Christ had not yet appeared and wasn't a priest     

Jesus Christ is the first of all creation it is through him and for him that all things are created.

Quote
    Jesus was the imprint or facsimile of the Father per Hebrews, which cannot be said for Adam, as he knew not good and evil         

Adam knew good and evil when he ate from the tree of knowledge and God said he has become like us so it seams to me that Adam was meant to eat from the tree to be like God what he was supposed to do then and what we are called to do is do the good and reject the evil it has to be our freewill choice.

Quote
       So I would prefer "imprint" or "facsimile" when used of Christ (that is what the Greek word means anyway), rather than just "image" which is too secular, because the Hebrew image concept extends to the likeness of any father to his son, which may not be an exact likeness   

You are at liberty to choose any words you like but I will stick to the words as they appear in scripture KJV

Quote
      But they weren't all destroyed. Noah et al survived, who was descended from Adam       

But like I keep saying one man on his own is not in the image of God man in the image of God is Christ at his second coming.
There has been three Adams one before the flood then Israel after the Flood and then Jesus Christ and they are all created the same way the only difference is the last Adam Christ is a spiritual being.

Quote
This is where I don't agree with you. God preserved the knowledge of himself in the line of Noah. In fact the knowledge of the true God was preserved right down from Adam and Eve to Abraham, the man of faith. It would be wrong to say that the knowledge of "Enki/Ea," as he was known in Sumer, entirely disappeared, although he became incorporated into the general apostasy of pluralism and polytheism, much like Christ today is just one of a number of "cultural" gods alongside Mahoment etc but his knowledge is retained by a faithful few.

So it would be wrong to say that man stopped being in the image of God, in the secular Adamic sense, or ceased to retain the knowledge of God, in the spiritual sense.       

That God has preserved the Knowledge of him self all the way through is not in doubt and supports what I say about God still working.
not sure about the rest of what you say I would much prefer to stick to the Scripture once we start to go outside of them we can get into trouble.
so there are three Adams the first destroyed in the flood the second destroyed by the romans in 70 ad that is the nation of Israel the third Adam is Christ united with his Bride the Church.
Not forgetting all Israel will be saved and now we see Israel back in its own land as a nation a form of resurrection and we are grafted into that tree and all Israel will be saved.

Quote
I'm sorry but there is no verse in the bible that says what you have just said. You are required to produce rationale for defining why Christ needs to reign on earth when he is more than capable of reigning from heaven, which rationale you haven't yet produced. Also your theory directly conflicts with Heb "Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him."

Salavation is in the new heavens and the new earth, with the present earth being assigned to the destruction of the wicked.       

My opening post provides plenty of scriptural evidence for Christ reigning here on Earth and we are saved when we enter the body of Christ and enter into the millennium with him and at the end of witch he hands everything back to the Father who will then Create a new heaven and earth what that may be nobody knows
   
Love and Peace
Dave

Offline eik

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply sorry to be a pain but I would like to take a look at this millennium question I believe its very important to get it right.

     Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain

Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain

Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain       


If you read carefully through the above verses you you will see That Christ will rule from Jerusalem here on earth.
If you have scripture that cancel these out please give them.
That's not fair to ask me for scriptures that cancel them out, because you don't establish anything by juxtaposing verses from Zechariah with verses from Revelation, or for that matter, verses from Daniel with verses from Revelation. Even within Zechariah, different epochs are being alluded to.

However that said, I'll take you up.

Combining verses from different books, which is to say, to decontextualize different books and bible verses, is I think, a specious way to create spurious doctrine. Can you not at least see that? Who gave the authority to marry these verses you have quoted together? The person who marries them, presumably. So the doctrine is man made, just from marrying what the bible itself does not. Therefore I'd be interested in your authority for marrying these verses together.

So let's see the different contexts. Revelation is talking about post Messiah times, after Jesus' death and resurrection. Zechariah (at least chapters 1-8) is specific about dating his writing (520?518 BC) and therefore is talking about the restoration of Jerusalem after the exile period.  Zechariah 9-11 is about God's providential dealings with his people to the coming of the Messiah. Zechariah 12-14 relates to the glories that await Israel in "the latter day", the final conflict and triumph of God's kingdom, which likely related to the church, and the final salvation of the church. The church is identified with Israel in the NT, although Dispensationalists obviously won't agree with me on that, but it is inevitable from Rom 11:24 "After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree...."


So we have to grasp that Zechariah is talking about different periods in Israel's history. There is no value in combining verses relating to different epochs as if they all related to the same epoch, but I'll agree there is some overlap at the very end of Zec 14.

Lets look at Zech 14, as it's a very difficult passage:
Zec 14:1-7 likely refers to the beginning of the church age.
Zec 14:8-15 likely refers to the continuation of the church age, under one God, where all atheist systems will receive vengeance at the hands of Christ, reigning in heaven, per the plagues of Revelation.
Zec 14:16-21 perhaps refers to the end of the church, to the final judgeement, and does have a lot of resemblance to Rev 19,20,21, e.g contrast
 
Rev 21:27
"Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb?s book of life."
Zec 14:21
"...and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts."

and contrast
Rev 20:7-10
Zechariah 14:3 "the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle"

Throughout Zec 14, Jerusalem is being used as a metaphor for the church, as it denotes the location of the temple of God.

There is no imperative here to cast Zechariah as referring to any earthly reign of Christ,  nor Revelation (see below). The concept of saints that have been formerly martyred and have ascended to heaven and are reigning with Christ: I don't have a problem with this.

------------

Now lets look at Rev 20:4 independently to see what it might mean:

"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

First to note, they had lived on earth, and then they had died. When we die we sleep. That the saints came to life means that they were resurrected.

Heb 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

So the judgement follows death. But in your theory the judgement follow the millennial reign, and these saints reigning on earth before the final judgement. So they've gone up to heaven and then come back down and then go back up again for judgement. It all seems very silly.

Have I not disproved your thesis?


Jesus Christ is the first of all creation it is through him and for him that all things are created.

Adam knew good and evil when he ate from the tree of knowledge and God said he has become like us so it seams to me that Adam was meant to eat from the tree to be like God what he was supposed to do then and what we are called to do is do the good and reject the evil it has to be our freewill choice.

You are at liberty to choose any words you like but I will stick to the words as they appear in scripture KJV

But like I keep saying one man on his own is not in the image of God man in the image of God is Christ at his second coming.
There has been three Adams one before the flood then Israel after the Flood and then Jesus Christ and they are all created the same way the only difference is the last Adam Christ is a spiritual being.
The bible says that there were only two Adams

1Co 15:45 "So it is written: ?The first man Adam became a living being?; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit."

This notion of seeing men as fundamentally different before and after the flood has no warrant of authority.


That God has preserved the Knowledge of him self all the way through is not in doubt and supports what I say about God still working.
not sure about the rest of what you say I would much prefer to stick to the Scripture once we start to go outside of them we can get into trouble.
so there are three Adams the first destroyed in the flood the second destroyed by the romans in 70 ad that is the nation of Israel the third Adam is Christ united with his Bride the Church.
Not forgetting all Israel will be saved and now we see Israel back in its own land as a nation a form of resurrection and we are grafted into that tree and all Israel will be saved.

A form of resurrection? Not so. The only resurrection is of individuals. The secular nation state of Israel has no relevance to salvation as it is not the church. Only individual Israelites can compromise the church. The secular nation of Israel is a deeply unholy state, and has no comparison with Israel under the Old Covenant. There is nothing in Israel except the people itself, and frankly many or most of them would be completely unable to trace any ancestral line back to Old Testament Jews.

My opening post provides plenty of scriptural evidence for Christ reigning here on Earth and we are saved when we enter the body of Christ and enter into the millennium with him and at the end of witch he hands everything back to the Father who will then Create a new heaven and earth what that may be nobody knows
   
Love and Peace
Dave
I'm afraid "evidence" is not what is required. If Christ were ever to reign on earth again, we would need a direct and specific prophecy. We don't have one. Any references to Christ "reigning" are directly identified with him being God and reigning from heaven. The apostles knew nothing of Christ reigning on earth.

Offline davetaff

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

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         That's not fair to ask me for scriptures that cancel them out, because you don't establish anything by juxtaposing verses from Zechariah with verses from Revelation, or for that matter, verses from Daniel with verses from Revelation. Even within Zechariah, different epochs are being alluded to     

I think its perfectly fair its what Gods word says that counts and as I have said before I interpret scripture after the Genesis account of creation which is ongoing so when Zechariah says.

      Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain     

If we are to worship the King the Lord of Hosts in Jerusalem then he has to be there we know he ascended into heaven after his resurrection and as far as I know he has not yet returned so we cannot go up to worship him of course i believe this will be the new Jerusalem.

   Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. View more

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.       


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        Zec 14:1-7 likely refers to the beginning of the church age 
I believe its speaking of the end times if go on to verse 9 it says

     9  And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one   

Yes I agree much of what Zechariah says in the verses you quote are very like revelations and I think all this will happen during Christs millennial reign.

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There is no imperative here to cast Zechariah as referring to any earthly reign of Christ,  nor Revelation (see below). The concept of saints that have been formerly martyred and have ascended to heaven and are reigning with Christ: I don't have a problem with this                 

Sorry eik but I don't think anyone has gone to heaven as yet except Christ of course everyone sleeps in their grave awaiting the resurrection of the dead as stated in scripture.

    15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. note

 16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (Compare)

 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord     


Take note of the words the Lord will descend from heaven he will leave heaven and come down.
Let's make sure we are in the first resurrection.

The saints will come to life at the coming of our Lord and will be given thrones then and they will judge the world with our Lord here on earth this is what the millennium is all about
I have never said that judgement follows the millennium what follows the millennium is God creating a new heaven and earth.

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       The bible says that there were only two Adams

1Co 15:45 "So it is written: ?The first man Adam became a living being?; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit."

This notion of seeing men as fundamentally different before and after the flood has no warrant of authority   

I believe God began a new creation with everything on the ark the onlything he needed was to create man in his image and the first man he created was Israel the next was Christ

        Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.  The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/2co.5.17.ESV         


So we see God creats new man in his image

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   Have I not disproved your thesis               

No you have only given your opinion as I have given mine but the only thing that counts is Gods word.

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     The bible says that there were only two Adams

1Co 15:45 "So it is written: ?The first man Adam became a living being?; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit."

This notion of seeing men as fundamentally different before and after the flood has no warrant of authority     

Yes after the flood there are only two Adams Israel and Christ and all Israel will be saved includes Christians as well we are grafted into their tree and they where broken of but they will be grafted back in.

The Adam before the flood was contaminated by the angles that came down and cohabited with women and produced offspring that were not totally human as God had created them so could not be saved.
I have said before the creation account in Genesis should be see as beginning whit Noah and ending with Revelation.

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  A form of resurrection? Not so. The only resurrection is of individuals. The secular nation state of Israel has no relevance to salvation as it is not the church. Only individual Israelites can compromise the church. The secular nation of Israel is a deeply unholy state, and has no comparison with Israel under the Old Covenant. There is nothing in Israel except the people itself, and frankly many or most of them would be completely unable to trace any ancestral line back to Old Testament Jews         

Israel is man created in Gods image as a nation and as a nation will neen to recognize their Messiah and accept him and all Israel will be saved

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     I'm afraid "evidence" is not what is required. If Christ were ever to reign on earth again, we would need a direct and specific prophecy. We don't have one. Any references to Christ "reigning" are directly identified with him being God and reigning from heaven. The apostles knew nothing of Christ reigning on earth       

In a way Christ has always reigned over the earth its through him and for him all things are created when he came down to earth as a man he was made a little lower than the angles he did not come to reign dut as the suffering servant.
I think I have said be fore Christ is not God the Father he is God the Son there is a difference.
I am quite satisfied in my own mind that Christ will reign here on earth for a thousand years.

I must say I'm having trouble keeping up with these long posts mabe make a list of subjects and take them one at a time only a suggestion I am enjoying our exchange of views.

Love and Peace
Dave




https://bible.com/bible/59/2co.5.17.ESV

 

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