Author Topic: Man in the image of God / day of rest / millennial reign of Christ on earth?  (Read 14203 times)

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Offline eik

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Hi Serenity
Thank you for your reply but the only thing we can say with any certainty is we don't know we are not told what we do know is he appeared differently to different groups who did not know he was Christ until he revealed himself to them.
So it would seam as a spiritual being he could appear as anyone he chose to what happend to his physical body nobody knows we are not told dose it matter.
Dave, we are clearly told that Jesus arose in the flesh, from the story of Thomas himself. That is the whole point to that history. We are never told that Jesus arose as a "spiritual being." The notion of a "spiritual Christ" distinct from human flesh is a species of docetic (gnostic) heresy first practised by Cerinthus, who was condemned by the apostles.

It is a fundamental doctrine throughout the NT that Christ has come "in the flesh." Likewise he was resurrected "in the flesh." To deny it is a serious issue in Christian theology.

Offline davetaff

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

Quote
       Dave, ascension, in Christian belief is the ascent of Jesus Christ into heaven on the 40th day after his resurrection. That is a universal church doctrine. If you don't hold to this, what denomination do you belong to? Nothing orthodox for sure. Why are you contradicting regular doctrine? He was not an angel, or anything else but a man, until his formal ascension. Yet a man whom God had raised from the dead, so that everything became under his control. The angels of heaven were at his disposal to fulfil his every desire. They could have hidden him and done everything he wanted     

That Christ ascended into heaven 40 days after his resurrection ie perfectly correct thats what the scriptures say and thats what happened.
What denomination should I belong to there seams to be 41.000 I prefer to believe what the scriptures say not men.
When he rose from the grave he was a spiritual being it would be absolutely impossible for an ordenary man to do the things our Lord did after his resurrection.
The rest of what you say in the above is pure speculation.

Quote
      I have never said he was a ghost please don't put words in my mouth.
You didn't say it but you allege he acted like one, by disappearing and therefore was somehow not always of the flesh during his 40 days     

In all of our Lords appearances after his resurrection he disappeared men of flesh and blood do not and can not do that.

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     Yes he could because an ordinary man is a spiritual man, because both are men. I have made this clear. You are inventing a different kind of man post resurrection that is not orthodox ⁸s the bible ever allude to such a thing.     

Sorry eik but this contradicts scripture.

        Jesus answered, ?Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5-‬6 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.3.5-6.ESV

    1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. View more

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual 


As we see the man of flesh comes first then the spiritual man nowhere do they exist together.

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     Adopted or not Israel is Gods son and so is Christ.

    When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
Hosea 11:1 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/hos.11.1.ESV         

Sorry eik but the new Jerusalem  comes down to judge the world when the new Jerusalem comes down with Christ at its head it is the beginning of the millenium at the end of the millenium it will enter the new heaven and earth that the Father will creat at that time.


It doesn't say so in the bible. Show me where         

That Israel is Gods son is not in question  as for the New Jerusalem

        Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name   

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   Exactly, so where is the New Jerusalem before and during the millennium, per the bible? It's in heaven Heb 12:22, Gal 4:26       

The new Jerusalem is created at the beginning  of the millenium

     13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

 14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. note

 16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord       


Those who die sleep in the grave awaiting the resurrection of the dead when our Lord returns and those who are alive will be changed into spiritual beings and all these will rule here on earth with Christ as the head.

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        Do you really think God needs to rest     

No but he will rest on the last date of this creation to allow Christ to finish the creation.

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   Which man? I mean Adam, or course. The resurrected Christ and his bride are not "men." As Christ said his church will be like "the angels in heaven." An angel is not a man but a different sort of being with a "spiritual body." Do you believe what Christ said?       

When Christ and his church become one then we will have the end of creation man ( mankind ) in the image of God

Love and Peace
Dave
 
https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.3.5-6.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/hos.11.1.ESV

Offline eik

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

That Christ ascended into heaven 40 days after his resurrection ie perfectly correct thats what the scriptures say and thats what happened.
What denomination should I belong to there seams to be 41.000 I prefer to believe what the scriptures say not men.
When he rose from the grave he was a spiritual being it would be absolutely impossible for an ordenary man to do the things our Lord did after his resurrection.
The rest of what you say in the above is pure speculation.
Dave, you're inventing what the bible doesn't say. It doesn't say he arose as a "spiritual man" by which you mean a man with a "spiritual body." Thus you deny the resurrection of the flesh, which others have termed "neodocetism." It has no basis in logic or in scripture but in your own opinion.

For Christ himself said before his resurrection, "Mat 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"

The risen Christ had 12 legions of angels at his command. Do you think he wanted for anything, that he couldn't do whatever he wanted? His every want and need was fulfilled.

Mat 8:27 "The men were amazed and asked, ?What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!?

Water into wine, the feeding of the five thousand etc. All  these things were done as a man.

And you say he could not have done what he did as a man before he ascended into heaven?

You think that he had no heavenly power? He was one with God after his resurrection. He was literally superhuman, and yet of the flesh. You underestimate the power of God.

In all of our Lords appearances after his resurrection he disappeared men of flesh and blood do not and can not do that.
All you're saying is that he couldn't perform miracles. And you've no way of knowing how he disappeared. Almost the only thing we are told was that he was of the flesh. If he performed miracles before his death he could perform them after his resurrection.

Sorry eik but this contradicts scripture.

        Jesus answered, ?Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.  That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5-‬6 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.3.5-6.ESV
Spirit is spirit and flesh is flesh.

Of course spirit and flesh exist together in every believer. That's what being born of the spirit means.

    1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. View more

1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual  [/color]

As we see the man of flesh comes first then the spiritual man nowhere do they exist together.
You're confounding completely different  things. The spiritual man in conventional terms is a human being with the spirit of God.

In your specific terminology it denies that the man is an Adamic man.

A resurrected human being who dies and been raised to heaven has a spiritual body. Again you ignore Christ saying that they will be like angels, not men, on resurrection.

Jesus was not resurrected to heaven until 40 days after his resurrection back into the flesh.

That Israel is Gods son is not in question  as for the New Jerusalem

        Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name   

The new Jerusalem is created at the beginning  of the millenium
Repeating yourself doesn't make for evidence. Where is the evidence?

     13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

 14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. note

 16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord       


Those who die sleep in the grave awaiting the resurrection of the dead when our Lord returns and those who are alive will be changed into spiritual beings and all these will rule here on earth with Christ as the head.
To be caught up in the clouds means to be called up to reign in heaven, not earth.

Rev 14:14 "I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man[fn] with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand."

No but he will rest on the last date of this creation to allow Christ to finish the creation.

When Christ and his church become one then we will have the end of creation man ( mankind ) in the image of God
The creation was finished on the sixth day with the creation of Adam. The seventh day was reserved for all the elect to enter into God's rest.
https://bible.com/bible/59/jhn.3.5-6.ESV

Offline John

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Dave,
   "What denomination should I belong to there seams to be 41.000 I prefer to believe what the scriptures say not men"
Is a pointless statement. Do a Google search for churches in your area. You will not find thousands of churches, nor will you find thousands of denominations.

You ignore the example set by Jesus and the apostles as well as there teaching of where ever possible they attended a local synagogue or church and the teaching of Christians should be in the habit of attending there local church.


Church attendance is not just for one's own benefit. It is also for the benefit of others.

Offline davetaff

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Dave,
   "What denomination should I belong to there seams to be 41.000 I prefer to believe what the scriptures say not men"
Is a pointless statement. Do a Google search for churches in your area. You will not find thousands of churches, nor will you find thousands of denominations.

You ignore the example set by Jesus and the apostles as well as there teaching of where ever possible they attended a local synagogue or church and the teaching of Christians should be in the habit of attending there local church.


Church attendance is not just for one's own benefit. It is also for the benefit of others.

Hi John
Thank you for your reply maybe we should let St Paul answer this question.

      10  Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. note

 11  For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

 12  Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

 13  Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?       


There is only one church and that is the body of Christ and this is the one we should strive to be a member of and in all the different denominations there are there are those who belong to the true church and its God who decides by looking at the heart.
There is nothing wrong with attending the church of your choice and it can be very beneficial but everything that church teaches must be checked against the scriptures and if it contradicts the scriptures it should be discarded everything that agrees with scripture can be accepted.

Love and peace
Dave

Offline davetaff

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Hi eik
Thank you for you reply it seams we covering the same ground when Christ rose from the dead he became a spiritual being as stated in scripture.

       44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body       

Nowhere in scripture dose it say the natural body is raised a natural body.

As for all the miracles our Lord performed before his resurrection

  Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise         

Note the words the son can do nothing it is the Father working through Christ via the Holy Spirit.
After his resurrection he became a spiritual being he is the son Of God he can perform his own miracles he dose not need angels to do anything.
And there's nothing in scripture that saye he asked for any angels.

Quote
       You're confounding completely different  things. The spiritual man in conventional terms is a human being with the spirit of God

chapter and verse please         

In your specific terminology it denies that the man is an Adamic man.

     
I have denied nothing if you read Genesis carefully you will see tha man in the image of God is both man and woman joined as one as Christ will be when joined to his bride the church   


A resurrected human being who dies and been raised to heaven has a spiritual body. Again you ignore Christ saying that they will be like angels, not men, on resurrection.

    if you read revelations you will see that God will come down and be with us we don't go up he comes down and heaven is where God is             

Jesus was not resurrected to heaven until 40 days after his resurrection back into the flesh   

  Yes he was but when he was resurrected he was  spiritual being           

Quote
           The creation was finished on the sixth day with the creation of Adam. The seventh day was reserved for all the elect to enter into God's rest   

If this is true what has God and Christ been doing ever since and if this is true it would mean God had failed.
Like I have said before creation is ongoing and will end when Christ is united with his bride the church then we will have man in the image of God.

Love and peace
Dave

Offline eik

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Hi eik
Thank you for you reply it seams we covering the same ground when Christ rose from the dead he became a spiritual being as stated in scripture.

       44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body       

Nowhere in scripture dose it say the natural body is raised a natural body.

As for all the miracles our Lord performed before his resurrection
[edited]
Dave, I feel you're being somewhat naive in taking passages from different parts of the New Testament and fusing them together to create something that is clearly never spelt out as doctrine in a single text. This seems to be a characteristic mode operandi of your teaching and it is incredibly dangerous to orthodox theology. It is in truth your own doctrine (because no-one is seen to be authorizing it except you). When it results in contention with other believers, it is clearly something that needs to be given a great of deal of thought.

Let's be clear that the idea that Jesus did not rise from the dead, initially in the flesh, is extremely contentious.

Combining different passages without deference to historical tradition and consensus is the way heresies can start. Often this mode of exegesis denies what is taught in the bible. Nowhere is this kind of ad-hoc exegesis taught as "inherently" legitimate. It is only for those with great discernment and those whom are suitably qualified. Anyone at all can take different passages and fuse them together to create an absurdity, as the bible admits. See Peter on Paul.

2 Pet 3:16 "Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction."

Paul in 1 Cor 15 is not referring to the special case where Jesus' body was resurrected from the dead, before he ascended into heaven. Why do you suppose that he is saying so? In 1 Cor 15 Paul is referring to the church, not the son of God. He is referring to general resurrection of the church from being (mostly) dead, where their bodies no longer exist. Their flesh will not be resurrected permanently (if the flesh is resurrected at all). They will be given new spiritual bodies or if not the church will be sent to perdition.

The resurrection of Christ is a special case. Psa 16:10, Acts 2:27, Act 13:35 "You will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay." To noone else but Christ did this apply.

Christ is distinguished from all else because he is the son of God, the appointed high priest, the one who came down from heaven.

Paul in 1 Cor 15 is clearly not talking about this. He is talking about the future resurrection of the dead to eternal life.

As Paul says elsewhere, if there is no resurrection of the dead, "then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith." 1 Cor 13, 14

1 Cor 15:17  "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."

If you do not believe that the body of Christ came back from the dead to life, because he had conquered death, but merely that the spirit of Christ was given a new spiritual body to live in after death, then you are not preaching that Christ rose from the dead at all. He then becomes like Lazarus in the parable, who went to heaven without being resurrected, or like Elijah or Enoch whose bodies were translated straight into heaven without being seen to be resurrected.

John 10:18 "I have power to lay [my life] down, and I have power to take it again." This is the crux of the New Testament.

Offline davetaff

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[edited]
Dave, I feel you're being somewhat naive in taking passages from different parts of the New Testament and fusing them together to create something that is clearly never spelt out as doctrine in a single text. This seems to be a characteristic mode operandi of your teaching and it is incredibly dangerous to orthodox theology. It is in truth your own doctrine (because no-one is seen to be authorizing it except you). When it results in contention with other believers, it is clearly something that needs to be given a great of deal of thought.

Let's be clear that the idea that Jesus did not rise from the dead, initially in the flesh, is extremely contentious.

   Hi eik
Thank you for your reply as for me putting verses together are we not meant to support our interpretation with gods word or is it only priests and academics who have the right to interpretation  if that is the case there is no point in reading the scriptures.
Again I will ask you where in scripture dose it say that the man of flesh will be raised up again as a man of flesh I have looked but can't find anything the nearest I can find is Lazarus but then he died again which only goes to prove that the man of flesh cannot inherit eternal life but our Lord did after he rose from the grave
You say about putting verses together but thats exactly what you have done below 


Combining different passages without deference to historical tradition and consensus is the way heresies can start. Often this mode of exegesis denies what is taught in the bible. Nowhere is this kind of ad-hoc exegesis taught as "inherently" legitimate. It is only for those with great discernment and those whom are suitably qualified. Anyone at all can take different passages and fuse them together to create an absurdity, as the bible admits. See Peter on Paul.

2 Pet 3:16 "Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction."

    what makes you think historical tradition is correct   our Lord had a few things to say about traditions

        Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. View more

Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. note View more

Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye         
                       


    I wonder what our Lord will say about the church traditions  of to day.
I have this strange idea that God loves us and wants us to know who he is what he has done and what he is doing and what he will do and for that reason he has given us his word its not a great mystery that only academics can decipher as I have said before it is a simple story of creation which will end with the coming of our Lord JesusChrist


Paul in 1 Cor 15 is not referring to the special case where Jesus' body was resurrected from the dead, before he ascended into heaven. Why do you suppose that he is saying so? In 1 Cor 15 Paul is referring to the church, not the son of God. He is referring to general resurrection of the church from being (mostly) dead, where their bodies no longer exist. Their flesh will not be resurrected permanently (if the flesh is resurrected at all). They will be given new spiritual bodies or if not the church will be sent to perdition.

       For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
1 Corinthians 15:3-‬4 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.15.3-4.ESV   


    as we can see in the beginning Paul is speaking of the resurrection of Christ he then goes on to talk about the resurrection of the church those who are dead and those who are alive at his comming and they will all be raised up th meet the Lord in the air and this merger will form the new Jerusalem which will come down frome heaven to earth with Christ at its head and they will reign here on earth for 1000 years

The resurrection of Christ is a special case. Psa 16:10, Acts 2:27, Act 13:35 "You will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, you will not let your holy one see decay." To noone else but Christ did this apply.

Christ is distinguished from all else because he is the son of God, the appointed high priest, the one who came down from heaven.

I have never said anything different and I will never conradict scripture       

Paul in 1 Cor 15 is clearly not talking about this. He is talking about the future resurrection of the dead to eternal life.

As Paul says elsewhere, if there is no resurrection of the dead, "then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith." 1 Cor 13, 14

1 Cor 15:17  "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."

If you do not believe that the body of Christ came back from the dead to life, because he had conquered death, but merely that the spirit of Christ was given a new spiritual body to live in after death, then you are not preaching that Christ rose from the dead at all. He then becomes like Lazarus in the parable, who went to heaven without being resurrected, or like Elijah or Enoch whose bodies were translated straight into heaven without being seen to be resurrected.

John 10:18 "I have power to lay [my life] down, and I have power to take it again." This is the crux of the New Testament.

    I have never ever said   that Christ did not rise from the dead he most definitely did the only contention we have is you say he rose as a man of flesh which as far as I can see contradicts scripture.
And I believe he rose as a spiritual being as stated in the following     

       1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body            
           


    there is nothing in scripture that I can find that says the man of flesh will be raised up as a man of flesh and Christ when he died was a man of flesh and blood 
Why do you think the story of Lazarus is a parable as far as I can see its a true story and there is nothing in the story to suggest  he went to heaven thats pure speculation.
As for people being translated there nothing unusual in thatall thos who belong to Christ and are alive at his comming will be translated


Love and Peace
Dave
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.15.3-4.ESV

 

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