Author Topic: Man in the image of God / day of rest / millennial reign of Christ on earth?  (Read 14200 times)

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Offline davetaff

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply but almost everything I say is backed up with scripture if my interpretation is wrong you will have to give me a better interpretation.
My starting point is Genesis the creation account it tells the story and history of mankind from the very beginning when God created the heavens and the earth to the end when Christ hands everything back to the Father creation is on going as supported by scripture.

      Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work     

So if the Father and Son were still working when Jesus said these words then creation is on going and the end is mankind in the image of God which is Jesus Christ at his second coming.

     1  This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

 2  Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created       


As we can see from the above Adam is male and female and both united are called Adam as Christ will be when united with his bride this is man in the image of God this is the spiritual man but before him comes the man of flesh which is Israel.
Both the first Adam and the last are created after the same pattern as in Genesis.

       1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit         

The last Adam is Christ the first Adam of this creation which began with Noah is Israel.
Moses the head the man Adam Aaron and the Levites  his Eve the woman the other 11 tribes the children this is the best pattern of man in the image of God we have.

   45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit   

Thats all I've been saying Israel is the man the living soul and Christ is the quickening spirit.

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   We can agree that Christ will reign to fulfil this prophecy. Yet do we agree that Christ is already reigning to fulfil it? I think not. I think you are making out that Christ is not reigning now, so as to fulfil this prophecy. That is highly contentious and very problematic from a theological perspective               

Christ has been in charge from the beginning of creation up to the present day its through him and for him all things are created but his millennial reign is something different he will reign here on earth for 1000 years until all his enemies are put under his feet whether it has started or not I don't know but when he reveals himself in power and glory everyone will know no point in speculating.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline eik

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply but almost everything I say is backed up with scripture if my interpretation is wrong you will have to give me a better interpretation.
My starting point is Genesis the creation account it tells the story and history of mankind from the very beginning when God created the heavens and the earth to the end when Christ hands everything back to the Father creation is on going as supported by scripture.

      Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work     

So if the Father and Son were still working when Jesus said these words then creation is on going and the end is mankind in the image of God which is Jesus Christ at his second coming.

     1  This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

 2  Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created       


As we can see from the above Adam is male and female and both united are called Adam
I agree with you Dave, so far.

as Christ will be when united with his bride this is man in the image of God this is the spiritual man but before him comes the man of flesh which is Israel.
Now you're saying things that do not appear in scripture. Where does it say Christ united with the church will be called "Adam?" Where does it say "Christ will be when united with his bride this is [Adam] in the image of God?"

For this is what 1Co 15:44 says "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

If the natural body is Adam, why are you now saying that the spiritual body is called Adam?

Again 1 Co 15:45 "So it is written: 'The first man Adam became a living being'; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit."

Notice the word "became." He became a life giving spirit. This is what the bride of Christ will become; i.e. spirit.

Again Mat 22:30 "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

Which of the angels was called "Adam" except for the sinful ones that left their heavenly habitations?


Both the first Adam and the last are created after the same pattern as in Genesis.

       1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit         

The last Adam is Christ the first Adam of this creation which began with Noah is Israel.
Moses the head the man Adam Aaron and the Levites  his Eve the woman the other 11 tribes the children this is the best pattern of man in the image of God we have.
Again not found in scripture.

Where does it say that "Christ [is] the first Adam of this creation?"  Where does it say "this creation which began with Noah is Israel?"

   45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit   

Thats all I've been saying Israel is the man the living soul and Christ is the quickening spirit.
Christ is not here physically. If he were, we could still call him Adam, true. Yet he is no longer here but risen. So it's not "all" you've been saying. You're implying that the risen Christ is still "Adam." I've come across this before: those who say that Christ still retains the form of Adam. It's not so. A quickening spirit is spirit not flesh. A spiritual body is not a natural body. Adam is confined to the natural body.

When Christ returns he won't translate from a life giving spirit back to Adam.

Christ sits at the right hand of God the Father. God is Spirit. God is not flesh. Christ will never depart from his position at God's right hand, depending on what sense you make of 1 Cor 15:28, but my guess is not.

Christ has been in charge from the beginning of creation up to the present day its through him and for him all things are created but his millennial reign is something different he will reign here on earth for 1000 years until all his enemies are put under his feet whether it has started or not I don't know but when he reveals himself in power and glory everyone will know no point in speculating.
This is not found in scripture. Nowhere does the bible say that those on earth including Gog and Magog will be subject to a reign by a visible Christ. It is fantasy, and unbridled speculation. The reign of the invisible God is from heaven. That is the only kind of reign by God that scripture is cognizant of.

I again ask you, which theologians are you taking your doctrine from?


Offline davetaff

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

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  Quote from: davetaff on Yesterday at 01:25:18 PM
as Christ will be when united with his bride this is man in the image of God this is the spiritual man but before him comes the man of flesh which is Israel.

Now you're saying things that do not appear in scripture. Where does it say Christ united with the church will be called "Adam?" Where does it say "Christ will be when united with his bride this is [Adam] in the image of God               

      1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit     

The first Adam is Israel the last Adam is a quickening spirit and as such the image of God.

     Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. View more

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. View more

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely     


So Christ is spirit and his bride is spirit and both will come down to form the new Jerusalem.

Quote
       
Where does it say that "Christ [is] the first Adam of this creation?"  Where does it say "this creation which began with Noah is Israel     

Nowhere in scripture dose it say Christ is the first Adam and I have never said it but the bible dose say that Christ is the last Adam and so do I.

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      When Christ returns he won't translate from a life giving spirit back to Adam         

I have never ever said he would he will return as a spiritual being and claim his bride the church also a spiritual  being and we will have man ( mankind ) in the image of God and this man will reign here on earth for 1000 years.
This spiritual man is the end of creation as we have it in Genesis.

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      I again ask you, which theologians are you taking your doctrine from       

I have answered this question once hopefully I don't have any everything I need to know are between the covers of the bible this is my teacher
.
I have read quite a few books from different authors but one day I put them all away and asked myself the question how dose Gods word speak to me and what I say on here is the answer.

Love and Peace
Dave




Offline eik

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

      1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit     

The first Adam is Israel the last Adam is a quickening spirit and as such the image of God.

     Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. View more

Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. View more

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely     


So Christ is spirit and his bride is spirit and both will come down to form the new Jerusalem.

Nowhere in scripture dose it say Christ is the first Adam and I have never said it but the bible dose say that Christ is the last Adam and so do I.
Ok Dave, I might have misunderstood you on that one, although I find what you say difficult to grasp.

I have never ever said he would he will return as a spiritual being and claim his bride the church also a spiritual  being and we will have man ( mankind ) in the image of God and this man will reign here on earth for 1000 years.
Ok

This spiritual man is the end of creation as we have it in Genesis.
We don't find "This spiritual man is the end of creation" in the bible. We have resurrected (raised) man with a spiritual body that is the end of creation in 1 Cor 15:42-44. This is not a "man" is some sense but like unto an angel (per Jesus).

1Co 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." The spiritual man will die, along with the wicked man.

I have answered this question once hopefully I don't have any everything I need to know are between the covers of the bible this is my teacher

I have read quite a few books from different authors but one day I put them all away and asked myself the question how dose Gods word speak to me and what I say on here is the answer.
I appreciate where you're coming from, but this emphasis on a future millennium, or even the only permanent state of salvation, as to which I am confused as to which is which, although I concede you admit to an end of the millennium, calls into question why it exists at all with the attributes you have described. It is clearly something that one comes across in stuff such as JW theology, which is not mainstream Christianity.

JW reserves the final destiny of the elect for the habitation of this regenerated earth, a kind of permanent State of "spiritual Adams." Whereas mainstream Christianity suggests the habitation of a completely new earth and a new heavens, where the existing earth and heavens are destroyed by fire, and where men have completely different bodies that are not classed as natural Adamic bodies.

Offline davetaff

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

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      Ok Dave, I might have misunderstood you on that one, although I find what you say difficult to grasp     

Your not on your own I had difficulty at first but it seamed to me the church of man was saying one thing  and the word of God was saying something else.
 
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     1Co 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." The spiritual man will die, along with the wicked man       

The spiritual man cannot die only the physical man can die not even satan will die he will be tormented for eternity.
When Christ died on the cross he died a physical death and rose up as a spiritual being that cannot die.

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    I appreciate where you're coming from, but this emphasis on a future millennium, or even the only permanent state of salvation, as to which I am confused as to which is which, although I concede you admit to an end of the millennium, calls into question why it exists at all with the attributes you have described. It is clearly something that one comes across in stuff such as JW theology, which is not mainstream Christianity           

          Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. View more

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. View more

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. View more

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God           


I read all the above verses as pertaining to the millenium the sharp sword is the word of God and it will rule the world in the millenium.
He shall destroy all those who rule here on earth with the word of God he shall rule them with a rod of iron.
I also believe that Christ's millennial reign is the Fathers sabbath rest he puts everything into the hands of Christ to finish the Creation.
At the end of the millenium we are told.

       Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. note View more

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. View more

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. View more

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea         


I believe the new Heaven and Earth will be created from this earth i believe the sea mentioned here is the sea of humanity which will be reborn into spiritual beings.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline eik

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

Your not on your own I had difficulty at first but it seamed to me the church of man was saying one thing  and the word of God was saying something else.
 
The spiritual man cannot die only the physical man can die not even satan will die he will be tormented for eternity.
Dave, I can't accept this, because it would be to deny the death of Christ, or just to amend the word "death" to mean other than what it normally means. If Christ the spiritual man "cannot die" then he wasn't resurrected either. Death means the death of the body, not the death of the spirit or the soul.

When Christ died on the cross he died a physical death and rose up as a spiritual being that cannot die.
Well yes and no. Christ on earth was the archetypal spiritual man. He first arose as a man, whom theoretically could have died a second time, had God permitted it, as he had flesh and blood. Obviously God wasn't going to permit it because he had conquered death. Then when he ascended into heaven he became a "life giving spirit." I don't accept that he is a "man" in his heavenly abode. He was a man only on earth. That is what Adam means, "of the earth."

John 6:62, "[What] if then ye should behold the Son of Man ascending up where He was before?"

After his resurrection he became God.

          Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. View more

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. View more

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. View more

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God           


I read all the above verses as pertaining to the millenium the sharp sword is the word of God and it will rule the world in the millenium.
I don't dispute it, but it suggests a reign from heaven, not on earth.

Doubtless they also refer to second coming and last judgement.

He shall destroy all those who rule here on earth with the word of God he shall rule them with a rod of iron.
I also believe that Christ's millennial reign is the Fathers sabbath rest he puts everything into the hands of Christ to finish the Creation.
At the end of the millenium we are told.
I can't concur that the millennium is the Father's sabbath rest because the promise of rest was extended even to the ancient Israelites who came up with Moses out of Egypt. The Father's rest is a spiritual abode, even the bosom of Abraham (Luke 16:22, 23).

Heb 3:10-11 "That is why I was angry with that generation; I said, ?Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.? So I declared on oath in my anger, ?They shall never enter my rest.? ?


Heb 3:18 "And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed?"

It seems to me that you are pursuing a hopeless case of trying to fuse your own (or other's) opinions about the days of creation with the millennium. That strand of reasoning is IMO inherently gnostic, and isn't made out in scripture.

The millennium is a time when the gospel will flourish, relatively speaking as contrasted with pagan ages.

       Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. note View more

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. View more

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. View more

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea         


I believe the new Heaven and Earth will be created from this earth i believe the sea mentioned here is the sea of humanity which will be reborn into spiritual beings.
Sounds very JW to me. I prefer 1Co 2:9 "However, as it is written: ?What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived?? the things God has prepared for those who love him?"

Offline davetaff

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

Quote
       Dave, I can't accept this, because it would be to deny the death of Christ, or just to amend the word "death" to mean other than what it normally means. If Christ the spiritual man "cannot die" then he wasn't resurrected either. Death means the death of the body, not the death of the spirit or the soul     

When Christ came into the world he came as a man of flesh and blood exactly the same as any other human and died as such.
When God raised him up on the third day he rose as a spiritual man who could not die and ascended into heaven to sit at the Fathers right hand side.

Quote
  Well yes and no. Christ on earth was the archetypal spiritual man. He first arose as a man, whom theoretically could have died a second time, had God permitted it, as he had flesh and blood. Obviously God wasn't going to permit it because he had conquered death. Then when he ascended into heaven he became a "life giving spirit." I don't accept that he is a "man" in his heavenly abode. He was a man only on earth. That is what Adam means, "of the earth."

John 6:62, "[What] if then ye should behold the Son of Man ascending up where He was before?"

After his resurrection he became God         

Christ was just an ordenary man when he rose from the grave he became a spiritual being and appeared to his apostles and up to 500 at the same time then he ascended into heaven.
I have never said Christ is a man in heaven he is what he has always been from the beginning the son of God and after his resurrection he remained the son of God.
He is also the son of man the man in this instance is Israel Christ came out of Israel Israel is man in the image of God.

Quote
         I don't dispute it, but it suggests a reign from heaven, not on earth.

Doubtless they also refer to second coming and last judgement         

There is absolutly nothing in the verses quoted which would suggest that Christ would reign from heaven but it is quite clear from scripture that he will reign here on earth with his wife the church.

     Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, ?Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.? And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed? on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Revelation 21:9-‬14 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/rev.21.9-14.ESV   

        Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:6 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/rev.20.6.ESV           


We know Christ and his bride the church will be united and become one and cannot be separated so Christ cannot remain in heaven while his wife is down here on earth they must remain united and they will reign together for 1000 years.

Luke 16:22, 23).  Is part of a parable and should be viewed as such

     Heb 3:10-11 "That is why I was angry with that generation; I said, ?Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.? So I declared on oath in my anger, ?They shall never enter my rest.? ?


Heb 3:18 "And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed             


It was to Israel that he swore they would not enter his rest be cause of disobedience but then we are told

    So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God?s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.  Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
Hebrews 4:9-‬11 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/heb.4.9-11.ESV         


So Gods sabbath rest is open to us to enter in and to those who come after so it is a future event and it means that creation is on going because Gods sabbath rest is the last day of creation.

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The millennium is a time when the gospel will flourish, relatively speaking as contrasted with pagan ages             

There is no relativity about it the devil will be bound for 1000 years and the gospel will be preached to every corner of the earth to all peoples and there will be nothing or nobody to stop it so everyone will have the knowledge of good and evil and will have to make a choice when satan is released for a short time.

Love and Peace
Dave
https://bible.com/bible/59/rev.21.9-14.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/rev.20.6.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/heb.4.9-11.ESV

Offline eik

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

When Christ came into the world he came as a man of flesh and blood exactly the same as any other human and died as such.
Dave, this isn't true. Christ said he was from above. Not the same as any other human. His mother was fertilized with the Holy Spirit.

When God raised him up on the third day he rose as a spiritual man who could not die and ascended into heaven to sit at the Fathers right hand side.
I would say that he was a spiritual man on earth, i.e. a man possessed by the fulness of God's spirit without measure: John 3:34

When he arose and ascended into heaven he returned to his "former place." John 6:62 i.e. God (John 1:1).


Christ was just an ordenary man when he rose from the grave he became a spiritual being and appeared to his apostles and up to 500 at the same time then he ascended into heaven.
He was no different upon first arising from the dead than he was before,

I have never said Christ is a man in heaven he is what he has always been from the beginning the son of God and after his resurrection he remained the son of God.
He is also the son of man the man in this instance is Israel Christ came out of Israel Israel is man in the image of God.
Israel the nation is not Christ. The two are different.

There is absolutly nothing in the verses quoted which would suggest that Christ would reign from heaven but it is quite clear from scripture that he will reign here on earth with his wife the church.
Not "clear" at all. Christ rules by his servants, in any event rather than in person. So no reason why he wouldn't rule from heaven. You don't really have a good grasp of how God does reign. Ps 104:4 "He makes winds his messengers, flames of fire his servants."

     Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, ?Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.? And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed? on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Revelation 21:9-‬14 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/rev.21.9-14.ESV   

        Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:6 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/rev.20.6.ESV           


We know Christ and his bride the church will be united and become one and cannot be separated so Christ cannot remain in heaven while his wife is down here on earth they must remain united and they will reign together for 1000 years.
That's your interpretation. The uniting of Christ with his church is not "on earth." Philippians 1:23-24: Paul indicates that to be with Christ is to "depart" and not remain in the flesh.

Again    Rev 19:8 "'it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure' for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. "

This indicates that the uniting of Christ with his church is after the lives of the saints have been lived, i.e. in heaven, per Paul.


(to be continued)
https://bible.com/bible/59/rev.21.9-14.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/rev.20.6.ESV

 

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