Author Topic: Man in the image of God / day of rest / millennial reign of Christ on earth?  (Read 14268 times)

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Offline davetaff

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

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  Dave, in the same vein then presumbably you will believe in a beast coming out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

When do you suppose this beast will appear, and which sea will it emerge from       

It will appear from the sea of humanity the great  nations of the world financial institutions etc.
Jest because some scripture is symbolic dose not mean all of it is we need to use a little commen sense the beasts mentioned are man made institutions that rule the world.

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I would just like you to acknowledge that Revelations contains symbolic language, before you start labelling me as an unbeliever       

Of course scripture contains symbolic language and it also contains strait forward text.
I would not dream of labeling you as an unbeliever.

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       Christ already is a spiritual being and he could not return to earth itself unless he stopped being a spiritual being and became a flesh being or unless the earth was transformed into the promised "new earth" whence it would no longer be "this earth." You're not explaining what you mean. For an event of such monumental significance, we need far greater clarity than mere soundbites     

I can't see any reason why Christ cannot return as a spiritual being spiritual beings have been coming down to earth all through scripture our Lord appeared on earth after his resurrection when he was a spiritual being.

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  His temple is on earth in the form of the church, and his kingdom exists in the church, so in that sense his kingdom has an ambassador in Christ's church, so in this limited sense his kingdom is already on earth               

Yes his body which is the church on earth but many of the church have fallen asleep but they will be raised up at his comming and they will be united as one this is the temple of God the new Jerusalem that will come down

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  God made a covenant with Noah not to destroy all life on earth which had as its inference that God would dedicate himself to mankind's salvation. God made other covernants also. Noah was the antetype of the salvation covenants that God made with men       

Agreed

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    Adam was on the ark in the form of Noah       

You will need to prove this with scripture.

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      People are still going to have to make the same choice during the millennium, because satan and the enemies of God will continue to exist on earth (cf. Gog and Magog). This is why your view of the millennium as semi-spiritual kingdom of Christ on this earth is doomed, because that kingdom cannot co-exist with his enemies   

Have you forgotten that satan will be bound for a 1000 years yes all those who are his will be here and is them that our Lord with the sword that comes out of his mouth the word of God.

      Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any double-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul and spirit, joints and marrow, as it judges the thoughts and purposes of the heart     

Love and Peace
Dave


Offline eik

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

It will appear from the sea of humanity the great  nations of the world financial institutions etc.
Jest because some scripture is symbolic dose not mean all of it is we need to use a little commen sense the beasts mentioned are man made institutions that rule the world.

Of course scripture contains symbolic language and it also contains strait forward text.
I would not dream of labeling you as an unbeliever.
So Dave perhaps you are more inclined to agree that there is no reason in principle to denigrate the idea that  1000 years which we know is used in the OT to refer to a "very long time" may mean exactly that?

Revelations is specifically to be interpreted in terms of Jewish symbolism. So if ever you want to know what a symbol in Revelation means, check the OT. Thus beasts etc. Many of those symbols come from Daniel, but that does not mean to say that Daniel can be combined with Revelation. It's just that the symbols come from Daniel.

Similarly, the mark of the beast has its OT corollary in the use of signs and marks E.g. Ex 9 "And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD'S law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt."

The mark of the beast is associated with the law of antichrist and denotes someone who worships the law of antichrist, i.e. the law of pagan governments.

I can't see any reason why Christ cannot return as a spiritual being spiritual beings have been coming down to earth all through scripture our Lord appeared on earth after his resurrection when he was a spiritual being.
Christ doesn't need to return as a spiritual being because what is "on the throne of God" is God and controls the world's affairs from their position of enthronement. As per Revelations and the OT, they can do it through angels. Satan is cast out of heaven. The world is given over to the judgement of God and of Christ.

God does what he wants. He never needed to "return" to be God. He is God without returning.

Another issue is that spiritual worship has to be voluntary. There is no way that Christ will compel people to worship him. So even if Christ could somehow descend from his throne to the lowest heaven, what difference could it make? As for a "spiritual appearance," well "no man can see the face of God and live." Ex 33:20 for it must result in judgement. The final appearance of Christ will be the judgement.

Yes his body which is the church on earth but many of the church have fallen asleep but they will be raised up at his comming and they will be united as one this is the temple of God the new Jerusalem that will come down
Which will be at the end of the millennium: Rev 20:7 is followed by judgement on all men Rev 20:11.


You will need to prove this with scripture.

Gen 5:1,2 "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created."

Have you forgotten that satan will be bound for a 1000 years yes all those who are his will be here and is them that our Lord with the sword that comes out of his mouth the word of God.
      Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any double-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul and spirit, joints and marrow, as it judges the thoughts and purposes of the heart     
What I am saying is that you need to factor in that Gog and Magog will be present during the "millennium." Scripture clearly says so. They will only be destroyed at the end of the millennium.

Offline davetaff

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

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    So Dave perhaps you are more inclined to agree that there is no reason in principle to denigrate the idea that  1000 years which we know is used in the OT to refer to a "very long time" may mean exactly that   

And there's  no reason to in principle to believe a 1000 years is a1000 years as for the OT the only two references to a 1000 years.

      Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. note View more

Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place   


Can't see this changes anything.

That Revelations is full of symbolism as is the rest of scripture thats not in question but it dose not mean that everything in scripture is symbolic.

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     Christ doesn't need to return as a spiritual being because what is "on the throne of God" is God and controls the world's affairs from their position of enthronement. As per Revelations and the OT, they can do it through angels. Satan is cast out of heaven. The world is given over to the judgement of God and of Christ.

God does what he wants. He never needed to "return" to be God. He is God without returning         

Yes at the present time God controls the world through Christ but Christ will return as the head of the new Jerusalem.
Yes God is God where ever he is

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        Another issue is that spiritual worship has to be voluntary. There is no way that Christ will compel people to worship him. So even if Christ could somehow descend from his throne to the lowest heaven, what difference could it make? As for a "spiritual appearance," well "no man can see the face of God and live." Ex 33:20 for it must result in judgement. The final appearance of Christ will be the judgement     

We worship because we love and love must be voluntary.
We will not see God the Father but we will see God the son.

       Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen     

     Gen 5:1,2 "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created       

Interesting scripture dose not prove Noah is Adam but dose prove what I say God made Adam male and female and called them Adam.
And we will see this when Christ returns to claim his bride and they become one this is man in the image of God the end of creation.

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          What I am saying is that you need to factor in that Gog and Magog will be present during the "millennium." Scripture clearly says so. They will only be destroyed at the end of the millennium 

I've already said that all the human institutions supported by satan will be here during the millenium.
And Christ will rule for a 1000 years to destroy them all this is why he has bound satan for a 1000 years this is the first step in destroying all his followers.
Our Lord will not come as the suffering servant but with power and in glory.

Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory   

   1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ     


Our Lord will appear and we will see him.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline eik

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

And there's  no reason to in principle to believe a 1000 years is a1000 years as for the OT the only two references to a 1000 years.

      Psa 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. note View more

Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place   


Can't see this changes anything.
Hi Dave it seems to me that we fundamentally disagree on the location of the New Jerusalem during the millennium. I contend it must be in heaven, as the earth is old. You contend is comes down from heaven to the old earth. This I find no support for this in scripture.
 
The millennium i.e. "a thousand years" is figurative for a long time. There is nothing to suggest it is any more than that.

That Revelations is full of symbolism as is the rest of scripture thats not in question but it dose not mean that everything in scripture is symbolic.
Never said " everything in scripture is symbolic." What suggests symbolism is the matter that 1000 years is not found outside of Revelation in the NT.

Yes at the present time God controls the world through Christ but Christ will return as the head of the new Jerusalem.
Yes God is God where ever he is
Christ already is the head of the New Jerusalem. He doesn't need to return to fulfil that function.

We worship because we love and love must be voluntary.
We will not see God the Father but we will see God the son.
       Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen     
On his return we will see him, but that will be on the day of judgement: Heb 9:27 "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

     Gen 5:1,2 "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created       

Interesting scripture dose not prove Noah is Adam but dose prove what I say God made Adam male and female and called them Adam.
And we will see this when Christ returns to claim his bride and they become one this is man in the image of God the end of creation.
Noah is one of the generations of Adam. Adam was the antitype, of whose image (likeness to God) Noah was a type. Not so with Jesus Christ, who was a new type of Adam (with the imprint of God, not just a likeness to God).

I've already said that all the human institutions supported by satan will be here during the millenium.
And Christ will rule for a 1000 years to destroy them all this is why he has bound satan for a 1000 years this is the first step in destroying all his followers.
So why cannot the present time be seen as the millennium?

Our Lord will not come as the suffering servant but with power and in glory.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory   

   1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ     


Our Lord will appear and we will see him
I agree, but he has't come yet which suggests he does not come at the beginning of the "millennium."

Offline davetaff

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Hi eik

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Hi Dave it seems to me that we fundamentally disagree on the location of the New Jerusalem during the millennium. I contend it must be in heaven, as the earth is old. You contend is comes down from heaven to the old earth. This I find no support for this in scripture.
 
The millennium i.e. "a thousand years" is figurative for a long time. There is nothing to suggest it is any more than that.       

thank you for your reply it seams we will have to agree to disagree as for the millennium why dose God use that term if it don?t mean what it says makes no sense.

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  Christ already is the head of the New Jerusalem. He doesn't need to return to fulfil that function.
     

The new Jerusalem has not been formed yet this will happen at his return to claim his Bride.

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Noah is one of the generations of Adam. Adam was the antitype, of whose image (likeness to God) Noah was a type. Not so with Jesus Christ, who was a new type of Adam (with the imprint of God, not just a likeness to God).       

Man in the image of God is Christ when he is united with his bride the church and Noah looks nothing like that.

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So why cannot the present time be seen as the millennium?       

I believe when the millennium begins we will know all about Christ will be here.

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I agree, but he has't come yet which suggests he does not come at the beginning of the "millennium."       

If he has not Come then the millennium has not begun.

on the other hand there is something that has been nagging at me when Christ the man rose from the dead on the third day he did it in the dark part of the day as I understand it the Jewish day began at sun down so if the physical mirrors spiritual the possibility exists that the millennium has begun but I have no scripture to back this up.

Love and Peace
Dave     

Offline eik

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Hi eik

thank you for your reply it seams we will have to agree to disagree as for the millennium why dose God use that term if it don?t mean what it says makes no sense.
Dave, thank you for your opinions. However it's not a question of agreement but of approach. Revelations will make no sense to most people. It is written that way. Moreover my position does make sense, because if the millennium is as you describe, it will accurately predict the day of judement which no-one can know. You yourself seem to be inclined to philosophize about dates and times. That's not what Revelation is for. It would be astonishing if it was, because it would overturn Christ's teaching that no-one knows the dates and times. Matt 24:36.

The problem as I see it is that are so many self-appointed prophets who have gone into print with their misconceived millennium theses, upon some delusory belief in their prophetic abilities,  that you're either going to fall into their camp on some ideological basis, or you are going to maintain an open view which is what I have sought to do for most of my life. No-one has made any convincing argument for premillennialism. As I have proposed, the vast majority of Christians are not premillennialists and have not been premillennialists historically. I don't really have a lot to account for in seeing 1000 years as symbolic and as a time of outreach for the church after the initial Roman persecutions resulted in so many martyrs (the first fruits) although there have been many since.

It may be that I am incorrect about the first fruits, in that the first fruits are still being gathered and that humanity has hundreds of thousands of years of existence before it.

Most people involved in calculating dates and times have been proved to be deluded. Whenever they stick their neck out they are usually proved wrong.

As Barnes writes of Rev 20,  "There is nothing, however, in the use of the language here, as there would be nothing contrary to the common use of symbols in this book in regard to time"

The new Jerusalem has not been formed yet this will happen at his return to claim his Bride.
It has been formed, because if descended out of heaven, which means it exists in heaven. What did Jesus say?

I John 14:2 "In My Father?s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?"

Heb 12:22 "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,"

What could be clearer?

Man in the image of God is Christ when he is united with his bride the church and Noah looks nothing like that.
Far too restictive, because Adam was described as in the image of God Gen 1:27. Again you're ignoring the special sense in which Christ is described as the imprint of God, over any likeness of Adam.


I believe when the millennium begins we will know all about Christ will be here.

If he has not Come then the millennium has not begun.

on the other hand there is something that has been nagging at me when Christ the man rose from the dead on the third day he did it in the dark part of the day as I understand it the Jewish day began at sun down so if the physical mirrors spiritual the possibility exists that the millennium has begun but I have no scripture to back this up.

Love and Peace
Dave     
You have a good point there, with Christ rising from the dead in the darkness. What God does is often when men least expect it.

Rev 21:3 "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Yet this refers to the New Heavens and New Earth, post day of judgement ("for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea" Rev 21:1) I  think you're confusing different things. There's heaven and a new earth, and there's old earth. There's no in between state. It's like purgatory for the Catholics, the fabled intermediate state between heaven and hell that most regard as unscriptural, a fable for those who don't understand that repentance has to happen in this life and that the divide must be crossed in the here and now. Christ's kingdom is definitely in heaven.

The millennium version of Christ reigning on old earth in the form of an autocratic world government is similar to the purgatory fable. It conflicts will the rest of New Testament theology, and is almost identical to what the unspiritual Pharisees believed what would be fulfilled in their fictional Messiah, but which Jesus didn't fulfil. I am absolutely certain there is no requirement on anyone to believe in the millennium of the premillennialists, just because God reigns in heaven. Christ's throne is in heaven Rev 3:21.

Offline davetaff

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply I think you are misunderstanding me my fault but I am not trying to predict the start of the millenium as you so rightly point out nobody knows when it will be so we have to work on the assumption it will be today.

  7  Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, (Compare)

 8  Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness         


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      It has been formed, because if descended out of heaven, which means it exists in heaven. What did Jesus say?

I John 14:2 "In My Father?s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?"

Heb 12:22 "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,"

What could be clearer   

It is true we who believe are all members of his body those who are alive and those who are asleep but the head and body have not been united in one this will happen at the resurrection and this will form the new Jerusalem.

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  Far too restictive, because Adam was described as in the image of God Gen 1:27. Again you're ignoring the special sense in which Christ is described as the imprint of God, over any likeness of Adam         

It all boils down to what man in the image of God looks like and the only one in the whole of scripture is Jesus Christ

       Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high         

So this is what man in the image of God looks like and its nothing like Noah.

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       Rev 21:3 "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God     

This is referring to the end of the millenium when Christ hands everything back to the Father

    23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (Compare)

 25  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.       


Christ will reign for 1000 years to fulfill this prophecy

Love and Peace
Dave







Offline eik

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply I think you are misunderstanding me my fault but I am not trying to predict the start of the millenium as you so rightly point out nobody knows when it will be so we have to work on the assumption it will be today.

  7  Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, (Compare)

 8  Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness         


It is true we who believe are all members of his body those who are alive and those who are asleep but the head and body have not been united in one this will happen at the resurrection and this will form the new Jerusalem.

It all boils down to what man in the image of God looks like and the only one in the whole of scripture is Jesus Christ
H Dave, this is not true because it contradicts scripture. I feel you too eager to put forward theories that are scripturally unsupportable.

Gen 5:1 "In his is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, He made him in His own likeness. Male and female He created them, and He blessed them. And in the day they were created, He called them ?man.?

Christ was in a different mould, but still a man. He was the "Last Adam." 1 Cor 15:45.

When scripture talks about man being made, it talks primarily about his fleshly composition. i.e. the natural man. The natural man is Adamic by definition. Christ had the same flesh as us. He was different in spirit and in soul because he came from above, but still had a soul fashioned in the human form.

You can't confuse creation with spiritual rebirth even if the two are likened in the New Testament in the concept of being "born again." This is a spiritual concept. The Adam / likeness of God scripture cannot be overextended into some gnostic thesis about different natural creations in different human beings. That truly is the stuff of gnosticism. There is a natural creation (of Adam) and a spirtual creation (of Christ).


       Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high         

So this is what man in the image of God looks like and its nothing like Noah.
Rather Heb 1:3 is referring to Christ, the spiritual man, who was the "imprint" of God. I have stressed this point to you so many times. The spiritual man is a transposition from likeness (adamic) to imprint (Christ).

As my previous reference quotes: 1 Cor 15:45 "So it is written: ?The first man Adam became a living being;?  the last Adam a life-giving spirit. The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so also are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man."

For the race of human Adams, to become like Christ is always a process of "becoming" like our Master. It doesn't mean to say we can dismiss the rest of the human race as non-Adamic, or not created in the likeness of God. Noah likewise was in the process of "becoming." We are no different from him. It's just that, "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Luke 5:32. We need Christ because we are rather more sinful than Noah or at least most of us. Yet none of us is able in any sense to contrast ourselves to the risen Christ. Rather our duty is to store up treasure for that future day.


This is referring to the end of the millenium when Christ hands everything back to the Father

    23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (Compare)

 25  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.       


Christ will reign for 1000 years to fulfill this prophecy

Love and Peace
Dave
We can agree that Christ will reign to fulfil this prophecy. Yet do we agree that Christ is already reigning to fulfil it? I think not. I think you are making out that Christ is not reigning now, so as to fulfil this prophecy. That is highly contentious and very problematic from a theological perspective.

 

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