Author Topic: Man in the image of God / day of rest / millennial reign of Christ on earth?  (Read 14204 times)

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Offline eik

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply nice to know we have some sort of agreement but I think I said or meant that the first fruits  would be the first to be resurrected and that at the beginning of the millenium.
Hi Dave, I can agree with that, but the resurrection is to heaven, not earth.

As for satan he has been unbound ever since he tempted Eve in the garden of Eden up to the present day.
But he will be bound durring the millennium as stated in scripture
Revelation is a prophecy encoded in prophetic symbolism. 1000 years is clearly symbolic of a very long and indefinite period of time. If it were otherwise, we could predict the date of Christ's return from the start of Satan being bound, which we know hasn't been revealed. Thus we may predict that the 1000 years is indefinite but a very long period of time.

What I say here is speculation and not doctrine as such. I can't agree that Satan had been always unbound. It's just that antichrist took his place during the millennium. Rev 13;4 "People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, ?Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?? The deceiving false prophet of Rev 13 also.

Just my opinion. Just because Satan is bound doesn't mean to say that his kingdom doesn't live on in the powers and authorities of earth. I don't think there are many deceived by pagan gods any more in the way in which they used to be universal. Now it's mainly a question of choice.

    2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (Compare)

 3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season           


As we see satan will be shut away for a 1000 years this is the millennium Christs 1000 year reign then satan will be released for a short time at the end of the millenium.
See above. What about the human powers, who worship Satan despite Satan being bound?

And as I have explained both Israel and Christ are sons of God and as such are created in the image of God
Where does it say that Israel is different from Adam?

On what scripture do you base the assumption  that Israel was adopted Israel was created in Gods
image in the flesh Christ in the Spirit but they both follow the same creation plan.
Romans 9:4 "the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons...."

    1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body

45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit
Paul is talking about resurrection here.

   1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual
      [/color]

So as we see from the above the man of flesh comes first then the man of spirit.
Israel was created as man in the image of God in the flesh Christ in the image of God in the spirit.
I'm not disagreeing. I'm disagreeing that Israel is not like Adam of Adam and Eve.

Not to sure about figurative John was in the spirit on the Lords day so should we see revelations from a spiritual perspective is the Lords day the millennium????
I assume the Lord's day is the day of resurrection. Revelations is self-aware of being politically subversive and therefore written in abstruse language forms to prevent the authorities from understanding it. 

Offline davetaff

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

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    Revelation is a prophecy encoded in prophetic symbolism. 1000 years is clearly symbolic of a very long and indefinite period of time. If it were otherwise, we could predict the date of Christ's return from the start of Satan being bound, which we know hasn't been revealed. Thus we may predict that the 1000 years is indefinite but a very long period of time     

Sorry can't possibly agree with this a 1000 years is exactly that and will commence at the start of the millenium it is the last day of this creation which began with Noah the creation of man in the image of God who is Jesus Christ the last Adam.
If I am right then we are somewhere towards the end of the sixth day give or take a 100 years or so and like you say no one knows the day of his return so there's no point in speculating.

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    What I say here is speculation and not doctrine as such. I can't agree that Satan had been always unbound. It's just that antichrist took his place during the millennium. Rev 13;4 "People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, ?Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?? The deceiving false prophet of Rev 13 also         

You write this as if the millennium had already happened  which it hasn't its still a future event and will begin when our Lord returns.

    7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen       

This is the start of the millenium which will last for 1000 years so what is the purpose of the millenium I believe it what revelations is all about Satan is bound so he cannot give his support to all those who follow him and our Lord will put down all human governments and institutions he will put all things under his feet.

      For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1 Corinthians 15:25 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.15.25.ESV     


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       Where does it say that Israel is different from Adam     

I have never said that Israel is different to Adam what I have said is Israel is the first Adam in the flesh after the flood

          4  Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises     

Thank you for that verse as we see they where adopted into a lot but whether adopted or begotten they are still sons of God and as such are in his image.

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     1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body

45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit

Paul is talking about resurrection here         

Yes of course he his the point being there must be a mortal man before there can be a spiritual man.

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        I'm not disagreeing. I'm disagreeing that Israel is not like Adam of Adam and Eve       

Like I said before the Adam God created before the flood was destroyed in the flood there was no Adam so God set about creating a new Adam in the flesh which was Israel the man of flesh which must come first before the man of spirit.
The head of Israel was Moses then came the priesthood under Aaron this is the woman Eve Moses helper this is man in the image of God.
It will be the same with Christ Christ will be the head and the church his bride will be his helper Eve.

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        I assume the Lord's day is the day of resurrection. Revelations is self-aware of being politically subversive and therefore written in abstruse language forms to prevent the authorities from understanding it.
         

The resurrection is the beginning of the Lords day which is the millennium
I think revelations tells what will happen in that day basically it tells us that our Lord Jesus Christ will put down all rule and authority and will rule supreme as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Love and Peace
Dave


https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.15.25.ESV

Offline eik

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

Sorry can't possibly agree with this a 1000 years is exactly that and will commence at the start of the millenium it is the last day of this creation which began with Noah the creation of man in the image of God who is Jesus Christ the last Adam.
If I am right then we are somewhere towards the end of the sixth day give or take a 100 years or so and like you say no one knows the day of his return so there's no point in speculating.
Dave, the last person who said "if I am right" to me was so wrong he couldn't ever have believed how wrong he was. He was living in cloud cuckoo land. Not that I'm saying you are, but this is pure speculation on your part. "This" creation of humanity with man having dominion began with Adam, as the bible says. There is nothing in apostolic NT theology alluding to anything you have said. No creation began with Noah that the bible records. Show me the bible verse that says any creation began with Noah and ends at the start of the millennium. This is just someone's theories, likely dispensationalist, being superimposed onto what is actually written in scripture. Scripture is not dispensational, apart from being divided between the gospel period and the pre-gospel period. The pre_Noah / post Noah period was a covenantal division.

Gen 9:17 "And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth."


You write this as if the millennium had already happened  which it hasn't its still a future event and will begin when our Lord returns.
    7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen       
Again, nothing in the bible to say so: just the theories of others that have been wildly peddled. The return of Christ as a human being has no theological support whatsoever and the passage you quoted doesn't show it.

This is the start of the millenium which will last for 1000 years so what is the purpose of the millenium I believe it what revelations is all about Satan is bound so he cannot give his support to all those who follow him and our Lord will put down all human governments and institutions he will put all things under his feet.
Again scripturally baseless. If he could have done what you said, why didn't he do it the last time he came, as the Jews expected him to? They didn't understand that Christ's kingdom was in heaven alone, and it seems neither do you.

John 18:36 "but now is my kingdom not from hence."

Isa 52:7 "How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, ?Your God reigns!?

Is Christ reigning now? Yes / No? Nothing in the NT to suggest he is not reigning. See Revelations.

I have never said that Israel is different to Adam what I have said is Israel is the first Adam in the flesh after the flood

          4  Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises     

Thank you for that verse as we see they where adopted into a lot but whether adopted or begotten they are still sons of God and as such are in his image.
Adam was also in the flesh and a son of God. Luke 3:38

Yes of course he his the point being there must be a mortal man before there can be a spiritual man.

Like I said before the Adam God created before the flood was destroyed in the flood there was no Adam so God set about creating a new Adam in the flesh which was Israel the man of flesh which must come first before the man of spirit.
An addition to the bible, surely.  Gen 6:9. Noah was righteous. Israel was a type of Noah and Noah was before and after the flood. What changed in creation due to the flood? Nothing except the covenantal relation.

Also note that the Nephilim existed both before (Gen 6:1-4) and after (Numbers 13:33) the flood. Again I ask you, what changed?

The head of Israel was Moses then came the priesthood under Aaron this is the woman Eve Moses helper this is man in the image of God.
It will be the same with Christ Christ will be the head and the church his bride will be his helper Eve.
I can accept types and antitypes of this genre, provided they aren't extended too far. After all Moses sinned against God by speaking rash words. Numbers 20:7-13.

The resurrection is the beginning of the Lords day which is the millennium
I think revelations tells what will happen in that day basically it tells us that our Lord Jesus Christ will put down all rule and authority and will rule supreme as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
My question: if it was that easy, why did he wait until a future millennium to exert his authority? It seems really bizarre and suggests he isn't all powerful. I don't think you grasp that Christ is already reigning in the here and now and that his power is already unlimited. It's just that you don't see it.


Offline davetaff

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply if you wish to believe that scripture dose not mean what it says then that's your right but I believe when God says Christ will reign for a thousand years then he will if he says satan will be bound for a thousand years then he will these are statement of fact and cannot be changed.

    Gen 9:17 "And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth     

Whats this got to do with the discussion the token of the covenant was a rainbow

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      Again, nothing in the bible to say so: just the theories of others that have been wildly peddled. The return of Christ as a human being has no theological support whatsoever and the passage you quoted doesn't show it   

I have never said Christ will return as a human being he will return at the start of the millenium as a spiritual being.

Quote
     This is the start of the millenium which will last for 1000 years so what is the purpose of the millenium I believe it what revelations is all about Satan is bound so he cannot give his support to all those who follow him and our Lord will put down all human governments and institutions he will put all things under his feet.

Again scripturally baseless. If he could have done what you said, why didn't he do it the last time he came, as the Jews expected him to? They didn't understand that Christ's kingdom was in heaven alone, and it seems neither do you     

I have given you scripture to support what I say Christs kingdom is where Christ is at the present time that's in heaven when he returns at the start of the millenium  his kingdom will be here on earth.

       36  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence         

Christs Kingdom is the new heaven and earth that will  be created at the end of the millenium

     Isa 52:7 "How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, ?Your God reigns!?

Is Christ reigning now? Yes / No? Nothing in the NT to suggest he is not reigning. See Revelations.       


Christ  has been reigning ever since the beginning or creation I've never said anything  different.

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         Adam was also in the flesh and a son of God. Luke 3:38
   

Of course he was never said anything differently

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       An addition to the bible, surely.  Gen 6:9. Noah was righteous. Israel was a type of Noah and Noah was before and after the flood. What changed in creation due to the flood? Nothing except the covenantal relation           

Israel was a type of Noah where on earth did you get that from not from
me.

What changed was everything God had created before the flood ceased to exist except for what was on the ark the only thing missing was Adam and God set about remedying that.

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       My question: if it was that easy, why did he wait until a future millennium to exert his authority? It seems really bizarre and suggests he isn't all powerful. I don't think you grasp that Christ is already reigning in the here and now and that his power is already unlimited. It's just that you don't see it           

I have said several times that Christ has reigned over the earth from before the creation began.
Do you not know why he has waited its because of love we have to love God And love our neighbour and our enemies from the heart of our own free will and to make that choice we must have two things to choose from thats why the tree of knowledge was planted in Eden.

Love and Peace
Dave






Offline Serenity

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@davetaff can you just clarify something for me on what you said...
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What changed was everything God had created before the flood ceased to exist except for what was on the ark the only thing missing was Adam and God set about remedying that

When the waters receded all living things may have ceased as it was but not all of what He created.  Could you show me where it shows all of creation ceased to exist except that on the ark in Scripture?

@eik could you expand any on this?...

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I don't think you grasp that Christ is already reigning in the here and now and that his power is already unlimited. It's just that you don't see it
     

   
My understanding is Christ may well be reigning in a believers life/household....'me and my house will serve the Lord', He is King of their heart.  However, His reign at this time is not the whole world, satan has power in the 'world'. 

He may have reign in a believer, born again into His Kingdom, ie you have dual citizenship of both this world and the kingdom of God.  Hence you being able to be an Ambassador for Christ.  Ambassadors are from Kingdoms...in this case Christ's...not of this earth.  Of course access to the power and supernatural from the heavenlies is available to all born again INTO the Kingdom of God.

🔥💖GOD CAN USE ANYTHING, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME, ANYONE, ANYHOW, FOR HIS GOOD AND PURPOSE 💖🔥

Offline eik

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@davetaff can you just clarify something for me on what you said...
When the waters receded all living things may have ceased as it was but not all of what He created.  Could you show me where it shows all of creation ceased to exist except that on the ark in Scripture?

@eik could you expand any on this?...
I have already explained to Dave that the flood was limited in extent to the pre-Sumerian land area in the region of the Tigris and Euphrates and Babylon. It destroyed the pre-Sumerian civilization, which for Noah was the whole world. There is no evidence for the flood covering the rest of the world, which would have been physically impossible. Thus nothing new was created by the flood's occurrence; and it is likely that many other humans besides Noah would have existed then, i.e. outside the region of the flood, e.g. the "Nephilim," whose existence in the bible is recorded both before and after the flood.

My understanding is Christ may well be reigning in a believers life/household....'me and my house will serve the Lord', He is King of their heart.  However, His reign at this time is not the whole world, satan has power in the 'world'. 
God reigns in heaven, and Christ is God (but Christ is not the Father). Christ as God directs the affairs of the world, see Revelations. He causes all things to happen, sends angels of wrath and inflicts divine retribution. 1 Chr 29:11 "everything in heaven and earth is yours." and Rev 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."

As Christ said of himself: Luk 10:22 ?All things have been committed to me by my Father."


He may have reign in a believer, born again into His Kingdom, ie you have dual citizenship of both this world and the kingdom of God.  Hence you being able to be an Ambassador for Christ.  Ambassadors are from Kingdoms...in this case Christ's...not of this earth.  Of course access to the power and supernatural from the heavenlies is available to all born again INTO the Kingdom of God.
Yet he also reigns in the sense of governs the lives of unbelievers whom are set aside for common use: Rom 9:21 "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?" Christ governs according to the will of the Father.

Offline eik

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Hi eik
Thank you for your reply if you wish to believe that scripture dose not mean what it says then that's your right but I believe when God says Christ will reign for a thousand years then he will if he says satan will be bound for a thousand years then he will these are statement of fact and cannot be changed.
Dave, in the same vein then presumbably you will believe in a beast coming out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

When do you suppose this beast will appear, and which sea will it emerge from?

Equally Rev 12:14 "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent,"

I would just like you to acknowledge that Revelations contains symbolic language, before you start labelling me as an unbeliever.

So let's understand what "1000 years" signifies. One day is like a thousand years? (Ps 90:4). What does one day denote in the OT? A period of God's creative work (Gen 1) including God's own sabbath day of rest when he effects his plan of redemption. Therefore one thousand years is being used to figuratively denote God's own day of rest when the promise of entering into God's rest extended to believers holds true. Heb 4:7. He is also asserting that in human terms, it will be a very long period.


    Gen 9:17 "And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth     

Whats this got to do with the discussion the token of the covenant was a rainbow
It's confirming a new covenant exists with "all flesh that is upon the earth."


I have never said Christ will return as a human being he will return at the start of the millenium as a spiritual being.
Christ already is a spiritual being and he could not return to earth itself unless he stopped being a spiritual being and became a flesh being or unless the earth was transformed into the promised "new earth" whence it would no longer be "this earth." You're not explaining what you mean. For an event of such monumental significance, we need far greater clarity than mere soundbites.

I have given you scripture to support what I say Christs kingdom is where Christ is at the present time that's in heaven when he returns at the start of the millenium  his kingdom will be here on earth.
His temple is on earth in the form of the church, and his kingdom exists in the church, so in that sense his kingdom has an ambassador in Christ's church, so in this limited sense his kingdom is already on earth.

       36  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence         

Christs Kingdom is the new heaven and earth that will  be created at the end of the millenium
Christ's kingdom has already been created in the New Jerusalem which is in heaven.

     Isa 52:7 "How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, ?Your God reigns!?

Is Christ reigning now? Yes / No? Nothing in the NT to suggest he is not reigning. See Revelations.       


Christ  has been reigning ever since the beginning or creation I've never said anything  different.

Of course he was never said anything differently

Israel was a type of Noah where on earth did you get that from not from
me.
God made a covenant with Noah not to destroy all life on earth which had as its inference that God would dedicate himself to mankind's salvation. God made other covernants also. Noah was the antetype of the salvation covenants that God made with men.

Heb 11:7 "By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith."

The position of Noah was just that of Israel as you yourself have pointed out

Hos 11:1 ?When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son."

What changed was everything God had created before the flood ceased to exist except for what was on the ark the only thing missing was Adam and God set about remedying that.
Adam was on the ark in the form of Noah.

I have said several times that Christ has reigned over the earth from before the creation began.
Do you not know why he has waited its because of love we have to love God And love our neighbour and our enemies from the heart of our own free will and to make that choice we must have two things to choose from thats why the tree of knowledge was planted in Eden.
People are still going to have to make the same choice during the millennium, because satan and the enemies of God will continue to exist on earth (cf. Gog and Magog). This is why your view of the millennium as semi-spiritual kingdom of Christ on this earth is doomed, because that kingdom cannot co-exist with his enemies.

Offline davetaff

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Hi Serenity
Thank you for your post you asked.

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       @davetaff can you just clarify something for me on what you said...
Quote
What changed was everything God had created before the flood ceased to exist except for what was on the ark the only thing missing was Adam and God set about remedying that

When the waters receded all living things may have ceased as it was but not all of what He created.  Could you show me where it shows all of creation ceased to exist except that on the ark in Scripture       

Bad choice of words I based what I said on the following

          Gen 7:21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man       

I take this to mean all living creatures they were destroyed in the flood the only ones saved were Noah his family and all the creatures on the Ark.
The above verse dose not include vegetation  and the creatures of the sea.
Sorry if my post was confusing

Love and Peace
Dave

 

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