Author Topic: Man in the image of God / day of rest / millennial reign of Christ on earth?  (Read 14202 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline eik

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 439
  • Gender: Male
  • Welcome our New Member
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

I think its perfectly fair its what Gods word says that counts and as I have said before I interpret scripture after the Genesis account of creation which is ongoing so when Zechariah says.

      Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain     

If we are to worship the King the Lord of Hosts in Jerusalem then he has to be there we know he ascended into heaven after his resurrection and as far as I know he has not yet returned so we cannot go up to worship him of course i believe this will be the new Jerusalem.
Thank you Dave for your responses. Yet if what I have said is true, as to Jerusalem denoting the church, or even the kingdom of God, which amounts to the same thing, then Christ is in Jerusalem as we speak.

Heb 12:22 "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,"

We don't have to locate to Jerusalem, to come to Jerusalem, as it has spiritual significance. There is the concept of the "heavenly Jerusalem" which is figuratively denoted by the place itself.

   Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. View more

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.       

I believe its speaking of the end times if go on to verse 9 it says

     9  And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one   
That fits with what I have just said, for the heavenly Jerusalem currently exists and then will come down from God to be the new Jerusalem.

Yes I agree much of what Zechariah says in the verses you quote are very like revelations and I think all this will happen during Christs millennial reign.
I don't disagree that there will be a millennial reign. I just disagree that it anything to do with the physical place called Jerusalem or Christ residing within it. It is a spiritual place. Your concept appears as a substitute end for what God has ordained, and it therefore causes us to take our eye off the ball and become blinded by all kinds of speculative stuff. For "no eye has seen, no ear has heard etc...." is the true doctrine of heaven, but we can very much visualize the current Jerusalem and life on earth, which frankly isn't anything new.

I don't think it is right to cast pure speculation as biblical doctrine.

Sorry eik but I don't think anyone has gone to heaven as yet except Christ of course everyone sleeps in their grave awaiting the resurrection of the dead as stated in scripture.
It said of these saints who were martyrs, "they came to life....." If that is what it says, it means it. Paul was also called up to heaven. So why shouldn't they be?

    15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. note

 16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (Compare)

 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord     


Take note of the words the Lord will descend from heaven he will leave heaven and come down.
Let's make sure we are in the first resurrection.
"We" won't be in the first resurrection as we're in the second one.

Rev 20:4 "I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

We are not in the category of "them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus."

The first resurrection doesn't apply to all Christians. In Rev 20:9, we find "And [Gog Magog & Satan] went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints..." after the millennium.

We are in the "camp of the saints."


The saints will come to life at the coming of our Lord and will be given thrones then and they will judge the world with our Lord here on earth this is what the millennium is all about
I have never said that judgement follows the millennium what follows the millennium is God creating a new heaven and earth.
This can't possibly be true, because Satan reappears at the end of the millennium, as do Gog and Magog, as does the "camp of the saints."

Final judgement will only take at the end of all things.

I believe God began a new creation with everything on the ark the onlything he needed was to create man in his image and the first man he created was Israel the next was Christ
Please show me in the scriptures where it says this. Israel is merely an adopted name given to Isaac, who was an Amorite, as was Abraham. Abram is identical with Abi-ramu, an Amorite name.


        Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.  The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/2co.5.17.ESV         


So we see God creats new man in his image
A new spiritual man to be sure. But those under Israelite law were not conceptually different from those under pagan law. They just had better law. So why make a distinction? They were a chosen people, not new men. It was just because they were not new men that Christ had to come. The Old Covenant was given over to sophistry by the Jews, who remained old men.

No you have only given your opinion as I have given mine but the only thing that counts is Gods word.

Yes after the flood there are only two Adams Israel and Christ and all Israel will be saved includes Christians as well we are grafted into their tree and they where broken of but they will be grafted back in.
Israel is Israel and Adam is Adam. I don't see the point in calling Israel a new Adam. What do you mean by Israel?

The Adam before the flood was contaminated by the angles that came down and cohabited with women and produced offspring that were not totally human as God had created them so could not be saved.
I have said before the creation account in Genesis should be see as beginning whit Noah and ending with
Revelation.
I don't accept that the "offspring were not totally human as God had created them so could not be saved." Everything about the Nephilim is pure speculation and cannot be a basis of religious doctrine. It is annecdotal to doctrine, but warrants continuing investigation by scholars and academics. It may refer to some species of homo sapiens that died out or disappeared.

Israel is man created in Gods image as a nation and as a nation will neen to recognize their Messiah and accept him and all Israel will be saved
Israel is Isaac and connoted only the Northern Kingdom. I don't understand anything you say hear, except for Jesus being sent to the lost sheep of Israel, to be sure. Israel is a spiritual name for the kingdom of God.

In a way Christ has always reigned over the earth its through him and for him all things are created when he came down to earth as a man he was made a little lower than the angles he did not come to reign dut as the suffering servant.
I think I have said be fore Christ is not God the Father he is God the Son there is a difference.
I am quite satisfied in my own mind that Christ will reign here on earth for a thousand years.
I have no evidence that Christ will reign here on earth for a thousand years. It is entirely missing from Paul's account in 1 Cor 15, and I prefer to trust him.

I must say I'm having trouble keeping up with these long posts mabe make a list of subjects and take them one at a time only a suggestion I am enjoying our exchange of views.

Love and Peace
Dave
Whatever you like. I just find that apostles to be so much simpler, and so easy to grasp, and all this talk of three Adams, Christ reigning in earth in a millennium is unsupportable from what they had to say. It's almost a new religion. And frankly. this doctrine was never subscribed to by anyone until recent epochs, which suggests that it is too novel to be trusted to. I am fully aware of all kinds of theories over the book of Revelation, but as I see it Revelation didn't add any new doctrine. It just explains how existing doctrine comes to be fulfilled.
https://bible.com/bible/59/2co.5.17.ESV

Offline davetaff

  • Moderator
  • ***
  • Posts: 4008
  • Gender: Male
  • New :God is Love
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

Quote
     Thank you Dave for your responses. Yet if what I have said is true, as to Jerusalem denoting the church, or even the kingdom of God, which amounts to the same thing, then Christ is in Jerusalem as we speak.

Heb 12:22 "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,"

We don't have to locate to Jerusalem, to come to Jerusalem, as it has spiritual significance. There is the concept of the "heavenly Jerusalem" which is figuratively denoted by the place itself       


There has not been a temple in Jerusalem for the last 2000 years and still isn't it is the new Jerusalem that will be created when our Lord comes down for his bride and they become one this is the new Jerusalem and from here our Lord will reign for 1000 years.

Quote
     That fits with what I have just said, for the heavenly Jerusalem currently exists and then will come down from God to be the new Jerusalem     

Like I have said the new Jerusalem will exist when the bridegroom and the bride are united at his second coming this is also man in the image of God.

Quote
   I don't think it is right to cast pure speculation as biblical doctrine           

All my speculations as you call them are backed up by scripture and make a coherent story from the beginning to the end.

Quote
     It said of these saints who were martyrs, "they came to life....." If that is what it says, it means it. Paul was also called up to heaven. So why shouldn't they be     

The martyrs will come to life when our Lord returns Paul came back to earth and died here.

Quote
  We" won't be in the first resurrection as we're in the second one       

There are only two resurrection the first is all those who belong to Christ

     But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:23 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.15.23.ESV     


Quote
        This can't possibly be true, because Satan reappears at the end of the millennium, as do Gog and Magog, as does the "camp of the saints."

Final judgement will only take at the end of all things   

Yes satan will be released at the end of the millenium as stated in scripture.
Have wondered if this will be some sort of test.

Quote
     Please show me in the scriptures where it says this. Israel is merely an adopted name given to Isaac, who was an Amorite, as was Abraham. Abram is identical with Abi-ramu, an Amorite name     

Sorry can't do that it was Jacob who became Israel.

Quote
      A new spiritual man to be sure. But those under Israelite law were not conceptually different from those under pagan law. They just had better law. So why make a distinction? They were a chosen people, not new men. It was just because they were not new men that Christ had to come. The Old Covenant was given over to sophistry by the Jews, who remained old men       

Consider that Christ and Israel follow the same creation plan both went into Egypt and God call both out of Egypt back to the promised land Israel went into the wilderness for 40 years Christ went into the wilderness for 40 days the words " if the days had not been shortened no flesh could survive " Israel had 12 tribes christ had 12 decipels the tribe of Dan was rejected as Judus was rejected the two sons of Joseph took Dan's place  judus was replaced by two others Matthias and Paul these things cannot  be coincidence the creation of the last Adam follows the same creation plan as the first Adam Israel.

Quote
      I don't accept that the "offspring were not totally human as God had created them so could not be saved." Everything about the Nephilim is pure speculation and cannot be a basis of religious doctrine. It is annecdotal to doctrine, but warrants continuing investigation by scholars and academics. It may refer to some species of homo sapiens that died out or disappeared     

Sorry eik but we can not pick and choose which scripture we like Gods word is true throughout scripture.

     The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.
Genesis 6:4 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/gen.6.4.ESV         


Quote
      Israel is Israel and Adam is Adam. I don't see the point in calling Israel a new Adam. What do you mean by Israel       

Israel is Adam that is the nation of Israel Moses the head Aaron the high priest the Levites the priesthood the rest of the tribes the children this is what man in the image of God looks like.
I will repeat man in the image of God is not one man the best pattern we have is Christ at his second comming  Christ the head and all those who are his body.
Why did God create Israel what was it's  purpose what was God trying to tell us.

Quote
     I have no evidence that Christ will reign here on earth for a thousand years. It is entirely missing from Paul's account in 1 Cor 15, and I prefer to trust him       

I have given you plenty of evidence from scripture but you refuse to believe Gods word.

         Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/rev.20.4.ESV       


Read the last line.

Quote
   Whatever you like. I just find that apostles to be so much simpler, and so easy to grasp, and all this talk of three Adams, Christ reigning in earth in a millennium is unsupportable from what they had to say. It's almost a new religion. And frankly. this doctrine was never subscribed to by anyone until recent epochs, which suggests that it is too novel to be trusted to. I am fully aware of all kinds of theories over the book of Revelation, but as I see it Revelation didn't add any new doctrine. It just explains how existing doctrine comes to be fulfilled       

I will let St paul answer this

       All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2 Timothy 3:16 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/2ti.3.16.ESV         


Love and Peace
Dave
 








https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.15.23.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/gen.6.4.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/rev.20.4.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/2ti.3.16.ESV

Offline eik

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 439
  • Gender: Male
  • Welcome our New Member
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said
 

There has not been a temple in Jerusalem for the last 2000 years and still isn't it is the new Jerusalem that will be created when our Lord comes down for his bride and they become one this is the new Jerusalem and from here our Lord will reign for 1000 years.

Like I have said the new Jerusalem will exist when the bridegroom and the bride are united at his second coming this is also man in the image of God.
Dave, thanks for your reply but you're not getting the point: you're talking at cross purposes.

Heb 12:22 "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,"

Believers are already "come." The word Jerusalem in the NT is figurative for the kingdom of God. It is a heavenly concept. This is what Hebrews is saying. God has done with the Old Jerusalem of the Old Testament. Christ was the fulfillment of the law. It will be irrelevant till the end of time. It is no more because under Christ, it is the heavenly Jerusalem which counts.

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

Act 22:17 "And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance; And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me."

Jerusalem is given over to paganism, and has been since the destruction of the 2nd temple.

There are now two Jerusalems

Gal 4:25 "For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

The one in bondage will remain in bondage. The one above is free. Why look to the one in bondage?

All my speculations as you call them are backed up by scripture and make a coherent story from the beginning to the end.
Not in my book. For a start you haven't distinguished between the two Jerusalems

The earthly Jerusalem is likened unto Sodom & Egypt:  Isaiah 1:10, Ezekiel 16:44-49, Revelation 11:8 and the inhabitants given over to wrath Lamentations 1:1-7, Ezekiel 9:1-8.

In short the earthly Jerusalem is forsaken by God as the place of persecution of the prophets. It is to the new Jerusalem that we must look.


The martyrs will come to life when our Lord returns Paul came back to earth and died here.

There are only two resurrection the first is all those who belong to Christ
I think you're making the mistake of confusing the two deaths with the two resurrections. They not the same thing.

Unrepentant sinners will experience two deaths, the death of the body and then the second death: the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.

But no-one experiences two resurrections "after" death. I suppose there is a question over what the "first resurrection is." Yet what it is not is conversion to faith. It is specifically identified with the martyrs. "I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God." That cannot mean "every" Christian.

And moreover, the second resurrection doesn't apply to those of the first. Rev 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. "

So the dead are being subdivided into two categories of people. It's not as if someone is going to experience two resurrections.

     But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:23 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.15.23.ESV     

So this sets out that different people can be resurrected at different times. I concede there is no reference in the above to the martyrs being resurrected prior to millennium, but then  there is also no reference to two resurrections or to the millennium either. So I take this as the default position for all Christians except the early martyrs.

Yes satan will be released at the end of the millenium as stated in scripture.
Have wondered if this will be some sort of test.
I think Satan is / has been released. Can you not feel it in the changes being wrought to current society in terms of detraction from elementary human morality in the name of progress?

Sorry can't do that it was Jacob who became Israel.
Sorry, my bad.

Consider that Christ and Israel follow the same creation plan both went into Egypt and God call both out of Egypt back to the promised land Israel went into the wilderness for 40 years Christ went into the wilderness for 40 days the words " if the days had not been shortened no flesh could survive " Israel had 12 tribes christ had 12 decipels the tribe of Dan was rejected as Judus was rejected the two sons of Joseph took Dan's place  judus was replaced by two others Matthias and Paul these things cannot  be coincidence the creation of the last Adam follows the same creation plan as the first Adam Israel.
Ephraim was also rejected as a tribe (Rev 7 list). Otherwise I agree with your synopsis, but otherwise there is no "new Adam." That is just your invention.


Sorry eik but we can not pick and choose which scripture we like Gods word is true throughout scripture.

     The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown.
Genesis 6:4 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/gen.6.4.ESV         

I'm not denying scripture. I'm denying your interpretation of it is final. No one currently knows who the Nephilim actually denote besides being the sons of Anak, and from Eze 32:27, if a non-KJV amendment is made, via the use of different vowels, fallen warriors who made plunder their mode of living, i.e. "They lie with the warriors, the Nephilim of old, who descended to Sheol with their weapons of war. They placed their swords beneath their heads and their shields upon their bones, for the terror of the warriors was upon the land of the living." However I agree that as denoted in the bible, they were not godly men, but as for "cannot be saved" I'm not so sure. By extension Nephilim could refer to any generic class of person who makes their living by plunder or by battle, such as the Vikings. Yet even they accepted the word of God eventually.

So Nephilim  could be a spiritual designation (bad people who despoil others), a professional designation (lifestyle choice as a plunderer), or some racial designation.



Israel is Adam that is the nation of Israel Moses the head Aaron the high priest the Levites the priesthood the rest of the tribes the children this is what man in the image of God looks like.
I will repeat man in the image of God is not one man the best pattern we have is Christ at his second comming  Christ the head and all those who are his body.
Why did God create Israel what was it's  purpose what was God trying to tell us.
It seems to me that juxtaposing Israel and Adam doesn't add anything. Israel is a descendant of Adam. That's what we know and I am willing to accept that Israel is corporately in the form of Adam, but that is the original Adam. There is no new Adam. Because Adam was still a believer in God, even if he sinned, as Israel was, even as Israel also sinned. There is no difference between Israel, and Adam of Adam and Eve. They are of an identical spiritual composition. It's that they had different covenants with God. A different covenant does not make for a different Adam.

I have given you plenty of evidence from scripture but you refuse to believe Gods word.
You're make the mistake of confounding your interpretation with God's word. That is a bad error because you have condemned 1800 years of Christianity to heresy, and most of the rest of Christendom for the next two thounsand years (approx) to heresy, for not believing in a physical Christ reigning from a physical Jerusalem, or not believing in three Adams. I have not come across any commentary from the 19th century or earlier that proposes either doctrine, outside of dispensationalism and pre-millennialism, which is by no means an orthodox position. The traditional interpretation of Revelation is a-millennialism, and many couldn't understand it anyway. It was not until the historian Gibbon came along that people started to make sense of Revelation.

To condemn people as not believing "the word of God" just because they have a different interpretation from you is not an orthodox position. Not even the apostles dared to say such a thing or introduce such theology. These things cannot be allowed to create divisions.

I am aware of the huge gulf that has arisen between the premillennialists and others, so that they are almost different religions now. Is this of God or of Satan?


         Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/rev.20.4.ESV       


Read the last line.

I will let St paul answer this

       All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
2 Timothy 3:16 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/2ti.3.16.ESV         


Love and Peace
Dave
 
Let me quote this:
1Co 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

1 Co 15:23 "But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

I think there is even a hint of two resurrections, one of the firstfruits  and then "when he comes, those who belong to him." Let's carry on.

1Co 15:24 "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

1Co 15:25 "For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet."

Is Christ resigning now, at this moment? Yes / No. Yes. Rev 1:18 "I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."

I really don't see the point of Christ's reign from heaven being interrupted by his coming back down to earth for 1000 years. What could it possibly accomplish. Surely he would stop reigning, simply by dint of being made again in the likeness of men. The whole theological basis of Christ's re-return to earth to take up a position of king in Jerusalem has no foundation from scripture.




https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.15.23.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/gen.6.4.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/rev.20.4.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/2ti.3.16.ESV

Offline davetaff

  • Moderator
  • ***
  • Posts: 4008
  • Gender: Male
  • New :God is Love
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

Quote
        Believers are already "come." The word Jerusalem in the NT is figurative for the kingdom of God. It is a heavenly concept. This is what Hebrews is saying. God has done with the Old Jerusalem of the Old Testament. Christ was the fulfillment of the law. It will be irrelevant till the end of time. It is no more because under Christ, it is the heavenly Jerusalem which counts   

Yes it is the new Jerusalem that counts and we come into it when we are reborn through baptism into the body of Christ then when we die fall asleep and wait for the resurrection when we will be raised up with him to form his body the temple of the living God the new Jerusalem which will come down and rule here on earth for a thousand years.

Quote
    Not in my book. For a start you haven't distinguished between the two Jerusalems   

I thought I had made it perfectly clear it is the new Jerusalem that  counts.

Quote
   I think you're making the mistake of confusing the two deaths with the two resurrections. They not the same thing         


I think you are misunderstanding what I have said which is there will be a resurrection at the beginning of the millenium of all those who belong to Christ and there will be a resurrection at the end of the millenium of all those who have refused to accept our Lord Jesus Christ  as their savior this will be the second death.

Quote
         I think Satan is / has been released. Can you not feel it in the changes being wrought to current society in terms of detraction from elementary human morality in the name of progress       

        Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years     

I don't think this has ever happened as yet on the contrary I think satan is working harder than ever to turn as many as possible away from God.

Quote
      Ephraim was also rejected as a tribe (Rev 7 list). Otherwise I agree with your synopsis, but otherwise there is no "new Adam." That is just your invention     

      Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.  The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/2co.5.17.ESV   

               


So there is a new creation in Christ and he is the last Adam and if he is the last Adam there must have been Adams before him.

Quote
      So Nephilim  could be a spiritual designation (bad people who despoil others), a professional designation (lifestyle choice as a plunderer), or some racial designation     

The Nephilim were sons of God who came down from heaven and procreate with human women and in so doing produced young who were not fully human as God had intended.
Gods word must always have the last say.

Quote
   It seems to me that juxtaposing Israel and Adam doesn't add anything. Israel is a descendant of Adam. That's what we know and I am willing to accept that Israel is corporately in the form of Adam, but that is the original Adam. There is no new Adam. Because Adam was still a believer in God, even if he sinned, as Israel was, even as Israel also sinned. There is no difference between Israel, and Adam of Adam and Eve. They are of an identical spiritual composition. It's that they had different covenants with God. A different covenant does not make for a different Adam       

         Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died   

So Adam died before the flood so there was no Adam and the human race that then was was very sinful so God decided to do away with them and began anew with Noah.
And the first thing God creates after the flood is Israel a new Adam.

Quote
       To condemn people as not believing "the word of God" just because they have a different interpretation from you is not an orthodox position. Not even the apostles dared to say such a thing or introduce such theology. These things cannot be allowed to create divisions             

If I have offended you in any way then you have my unreserved apologies please forgive me.
As I have said before what I say is how Gods word speaks to me personally and why I believe every word he has given us.

Quote
       I am aware of the huge gulf that has arisen between the premillennialists and others, so that they are almost different religions now. Is this of God or of Satan   

We must never underestimate saten he has and will do everything in his power to infiltrate the church of Christ and has done our greatest weapon is the sword of truth the word of God the scriptures must be the foundation of everything we say.
I believe in all denominations there are true believers who are of the body of Christ we must not forget that God looks at the heart.

Quote
  I really don't see the point of Christ's reign from heaven being interrupted by his coming back down to earth for 1000 years. What could it possibly accomplish. Surely he would stop reigning, simply by dint of being made again in the likeness of men. The whole theological basis of Christ's re-return to earth to take up a position of king in Jerusalem has no foundation from scripture             

That Christ will reign for a thousand years is not in question so lets agree on that.
The Jerusalem  he will reign from is the new Jerusalem which is a spiritual building with Christ the chief cornerstone.
As for the first fruits I have wondered if these are all those from the old testament all those chosen to do gods will all the prophets etc and then we have

       But what is God?s reply to him? ?I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.?
Romans 11:4 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/rom.11.4.ESV     


Not sure about this will need scripture to support  it

Christ will not come back as a physical man he is a spiritual being and will always be into eternity and is the king of the new Jerusalem

Love and Peace
Dave








https://bible.com/bible/59/2co.5.17.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/rom.11.4.ESV

Offline eik

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 439
  • Gender: Male
  • Welcome our New Member
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

Yes it is the new Jerusalem that counts and we come into it when we are reborn through baptism into the body of Christ then when we die fall asleep and wait for the resurrection when we will be raised up with him to form his body the temple of the living God the new Jerusalem which will come down and rule here on earth for a thousand years.

I thought I had made it perfectly clear it is the new Jerusalem that  counts.
Thanks Dave, but nothing you said was clear. This is the position with respect to the New Jerusalem,

Rev 21:1,2 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."
 
So its not this earth, but a new heavens and a new earth.

"This earth" is the one that remains, even until the end of the millennium.

I think you are misunderstanding what I have said which is there will be a resurrection at the beginning of the millenium of all those who belong to Christ and there will be a resurrection at the end of the millenium of all those who have refused to accept our Lord Jesus Christ  as their savior this will be the second death.
I was actually supposing you were believing this, but as I see it, it cannot be true because the 1st resurrection prior to the 1000 years is limited to the martyrs.

        Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years     

I don't think this has ever happened as yet on the contrary I think satan is working harder than ever to turn as many as possible away from God.
Which suggests Satan is no longer bound.

      Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.  The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
2 Corinthians 5:17 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/2co.5.17.ESV   

               


So there is a new creation in Christ and he is the last Adam and if he is the last Adam there must have been Adams before him.
All who came before Christ were of the Adam and Eve variety.

The Nephilim were sons of God who came down from heaven and procreate with human women and in so doing produced young who were not fully human as God had intended.
Gods word must always have the last say.

         Gen 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died   

So Adam died before the flood so there was no Adam and the human race that then was was very sinful so God decided to do away with them and began anew with Noah.
And the first thing God creates after the flood is Israel a new Adam.
There was no Adam at the time of the flood, but there were Adamites. Noah was also an Adamite. Israel was also comprised of Adamites.  There was a very long time from Noah to Israel. I just can't understand where you're coming from.

Wiki/Adam "The word adam is also used in the Bible as a pronoun, individually as "a human" and in a collective sense as "mankind". Biblical Adam (man, mankind) is created from adamah (earth), and Genesis 1?8 makes considerable play of the bond between them, for Adam is estranged from the earth through his disobedience."

If I have offended you in any way then you have my unreserved apologies please forgive me.
As I have said before what I say is how Gods word speaks to me personally and why I believe every word he has given us.
You haven't offended me personally, as I am not so easily offended, but I fear your teachers whoever they are may have misled you in contriving things that are not of God. I would like to know who they are.

We must never underestimate saten he has and will do everything in his power to infiltrate the church of Christ and has done our greatest weapon is the sword of truth the word of God the scriptures must be the foundation of everything we say.
I believe in all denominations there are true believers who are of the body of Christ we must not forget that God looks at the heart.
I agree with you.

That Christ will reign for a thousand years is not in question so lets agree on that.
Only if 1000 years is taken literally. To me it is clearly a figurative number meaning a long time.

The Jerusalem  he will reign from is the new Jerusalem which is a spiritual building with Christ the chief cornerstone.
As for the first fruits I have wondered if these are all those from the old testament all those chosen to do gods will all the prophets etc and then we have
I think they are the martyrs of Revelation (just my hypothesis).

       But what is God?s reply to him? ?I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.?
Romans 11:4 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/rom.11.4.ESV     


Not sure about this will need scripture to support  it

Christ will not come back as a physical man he is a spiritual being and will always be into eternity and is the king of the new Jerusalem
But this spiritual being cannot be in a spiritual Jerusalem located on a physical (old) earth. It's just not possible. It must be in a new earth, or it must be in heaven. If the old earth remains during the millennium, it must be in heaven, awaiting the new earth. So Christ and the martyred saints must reign from heaven (amillennialism).

https://bible.com/bible/59/2co.5.17.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/rom.11.4.ESV

Offline davetaff

  • Moderator
  • ***
  • Posts: 4008
  • Gender: Male
  • New :God is Love
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply strange thing is I was reading revelations this morning and came to the verse you quoted and came to the same conclusion it is an interesting passage don't you think.

    Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ?Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
Revelation 21:1-‬3 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/rev.21.1-3.ESV       


It answers the question about God dwelling with man it will be in the new heaven and earth.

Quote
      "This earth" is the one that remains, even until the end of the millennium       

Agreed

Quote
     I was actually supposing you were believing this, but as I see it, it cannot be true because the 1st resurrection prior to the 1000 years is limited to the martyrs       

That the martyrs will be the first to be resurrected I can agree but there will be others I think then we have

   Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb       

This is speaking of the 144.000 then we have.

       For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:22-‬23 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.15.22-23.ESV     


I take we are among those who belong to Christ all will be resurrected  in their right order.

Quote
    Which suggests Satan is no longer bound           

There is no period in history which could possibly suggest that satan has been bound it has to be a future event.

Quote
  All who came before Christ were of the Adam and Eve variety           

We are in Christ and Christ is the last Adam then it stands to reason that the Adams that went before him would be created in the same way.

Quote
      There was no Adam at the time of the flood, but there were Adamites. Noah was also an Adamite. Israel was also comprised of Adamites.  There was a very long time from Noah to Israel. I just can't understand where you're coming from       

That there were human beings after the flood is not in question the question is were they in the image of God if they were why did God set about creating Israel what was it's purpose.

      When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
Hosea 11:1 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/hos.11.1.ESV     


What ever creature fathers an offspring that offspring is the image of its father and if our Heavenly Father creates a son that son is the image of his Father.

Quote
    You haven't offended me personally, as I am not so easily offended, but I fear your teachers whoever they are may have misled you in contriving things that are not of God. I would like to know who they are.
         

I don't  have any human teacher my teacher is Jesus Christ through the scriptures which human teacher can I rely on there are so many and many of them are saying different things so I will stick to Gods word.

Quote
   I agree with you       

Nice to know we can agree

Quote
     Only if 1000 years is taken literally. To me it is clearly a figurative number meaning a long time.           

I don't do figurative if the bible says 1000 years then it mean what it says

Love and Peace
Dave


https://bible.com/bible/59/rev.21.1-3.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.15.22-23.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/hos.11.1.ESV

Offline eik

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 439
  • Gender: Male
  • Welcome our New Member
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply strange thing is I was reading revelations this morning and came to the verse you quoted and came to the same conclusion it is an interesting passage don't you think.

    Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ?Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
Revelation 21:1-‬3 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/rev.21.1-3.ESV       


It answers the question about God dwelling with man it will be in the new heaven and earth.

Agreed

That the martyrs will be the first to be resurrected I can agree but there will be others I think then we have

   Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb       

This is speaking of the 144.000 then we have.

       For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:22-‬23 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.15.22-23.ESV     


I take we are among those who belong to Christ all will be resurrected  in their right order.
Thank you Dave for your enlightened reply. So are we essentially agreed that there will be a resurrection of the firstfruits prior to the millennium, in heaven? Contrast the Mount Zion of Rev 14:1 with Hebrews 12:22. Zion, literally the southern hill in the city of Jerusalem, was a name also given to the whole city; and, as that was the seat of the divine worship on earth, it became an emblem of heaven - the dwelling-place of God (Barnes commentary on Revelation 14 - it's amillennial).

Are the 144,000 the firstfruits? Are they the martyrs? Quite possibly. Those who came out of the great tribulation in the days of the Roman Empire. They are a symbolic number to be sure. And  then Rev 7:9 refers to a much greater number of the saved ultimately. All this is a vision of heaven.

There is no period in history which could possibly suggest that satan has been bound it has to be a future event.
I disagree. You just don't understand what it means for Satan to be unbound. Try living in Parkistan or Saudi Arabia as a Christian. For many hundreds of years Christianity (the Nestorian version) and Islam existed side by side in relative peace. Now they cannot as Nestorianism is largely disappearing, and what has replaced it, strong Trinitarianism, is anathema to Islam. Islam itself has become far more militant with political might. The whole world is nowadays being given over to anti Christian dogmatizing whether, as in the UK & USA & Europe, outright heathenism or elsewhere a more militant form of Islam.

We are in Christ and Christ is the last Adam then it stands to reason that the Adams that went before him would be created in the same way.

That there were human beings after the flood is not in question the question is were they in the image of God if they were why did God set about creating Israel what was it's purpose.
As I have previously explained the image of God connotes both a secular principle (temporal dominion and autonomy - Adam of Adam & Eve) and a spiritual principle (spiritual supremacy - Christ).

The purpose of Israel was to prepare the way for Christ, and for the doctrine of salvation by faith.

      When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son.
Hosea 11:1 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/hos.11.1.ESV     


What ever creature fathers an offspring that offspring is the image of its father and if our Heavenly Father creates a son that son is the image of his Father.
Israel was an adopted son, Christ a begotten son. The "image" is not quite the same. One is a likeness, the other an imprint.

I don't  have any human teacher my teacher is Jesus Christ through the scriptures which human teacher can I rely on there are so many and many of them are saying different things so I will stick to Gods word.

Nice to know we can agree

I don't do figurative if the bible says 1000 years then it mean what it says
Come on. Revelation is imbued with figurative language. Nearly everything is figurative. 1000 years is also figurative as there is nothing to suggest it is not.

https://bible.com/bible/59/rev.21.1-3.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.15.22-23.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/hos.11.1.ESV

Offline davetaff

  • Moderator
  • ***
  • Posts: 4008
  • Gender: Male
  • New :God is Love
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply nice to know we have some sort of agreement but I think I said or meant that the first fruits  would be the first to be resurrected and that at the beginning of the millenium.

As for satan he has been unbound ever since he tempted Eve in the garden of Eden up to the present day.
But he will be bound durring the millennium as stated in scripture

    2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (Compare)

 3  And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season           


As we see satan will be shut away for a 1000 years this is the millennium Christs 1000 year reign then satan will be released for a short time at the end of the millenium.

Quote
      As I have previously explained the image of God connotes both a secular principle (temporal dominion and autonomy - Adam of Adam & Eve) and a spiritual principle (spiritual supremacy - Christ).

The purpose of Israel was to prepare the way for Christ, and for the doctrine of salvation by faith   

And as I have explained both Israel and Christ are sons of God and as such are created in the image of God

Quote
       Israel was an adopted son, Christ a begotten son. The "image" is not quite the same. One is a likeness, the other an imprint       

On what scripture do you base the assumption  that Israel was adopted Israel was created in Gods image in the flesh Christ in the Spirit but they both follow the same creation plan.

    1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body

45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit

   1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual

     


So as we see from the above the man of flesh comes first then the man of spirit.
Israel was created as man in the image of God in the flesh Christ in the image of God in the spirit.

Quote
        Come on. Revelation is imbued with figurative language. Nearly everything is figurative. 1000 years is also figurative as there is nothing to suggest it is not       

Not to sure about figurative John was in the spirit on the Lords day so should we see revelations from a spiritual perspective is the Lords day the millennium????

Love and Peace
Dave

 

SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal