Author Topic: Should Christians eat pork? Drink alcohol? Celebrate Christmas?  (Read 280 times)

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Offline Amos Ministries

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Re: Should Christians eat pork? Drink alcohol? Celebrate Christmas?
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2021, 05:42:28 PM »
The gentiles living under the pagan Roman Empire would not have understood the Jewish Sabbath concept. Although there is some evidence that the day of the Sun, Sunday, was a special day for some Romans, it is unlikely their slaves would have been given any respite from their chores. That said, each religious group was entitled to practice their religion so Jews would have been able to observe their Sabbaths. A gentile Christian however couldn't claim to be a Jew. Any command to observe a Sabbath not constituted in Roman law as a day of rest could have led to persecution by the State. There couldn't possibly be any injunction from the apostles to gentiles to observe a Sabbath that law didn't provide for. It wasn't until Constantine that Sunday became a legal Sabbath for gentiles.

The goal of the Christian is to enter God's Sabbath rest:

Heb 4:9-11 "There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God?s rest also rests from their works,[fn] just as God did from his. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience."

The Sabbath of physical rest is now subordinate to the Sabbath of spiritual rest. It is why Jesus worked on the Sabbath, because God's spiritual Sabbath was more important that the observing the physical Sabbath.

The old Sabbath remains embedded in the laws of most countries, but is gradually being eroded in irreligious political societies like Britain. The Jewish Sabbath was specific to justification under the Jewish law. There is no justification in observing a Sabbath that your faith doesn't require you to observe. As you have said, each to their own.

The ten commandments are in this day as much an injunction to legislators as to citizens. I would see the Sabbath commandment as an injunction on legislators to provide for a legal sabbath day of rest once a week but not go so far as to impose a direct command on anyone to obey the Sabbath commandment separately from whatever the law of the land demands.

 Jesus said that the sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath. This means that a man has to figure out for himself how exactly he is going to observe the Sabbath and keep it holy . Which must  includes not working on the day and making it a day of rest but as Jesus said he is the Lord of the Sabbath Meaning anything Jesus commands us to do is there by OK  to do on the sabbath. such as Jesus said we could give on the Sabbath or forgive and  love on the Sabbath Or to teach on the sabbath. Meaning I see it is the opposite that there is no rest from spiritual work that is what  Jesus is trying to say when he says my father in heaven never stops working or is always working.  meaning I see it is the opposite that there is no rest from spiritual work that is what Jesus is trying to say when he says my father in heaven never stops working or is always working. The sabbath Is a physical rest not a spiritual rest. God rested in the sense is physical test for he physically was working in creating .
Mark 2:27-28
Jesus said to them, ?The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.

Matthew 12:9-14
Departing from there, He went into their synagogue. And a man was there whose hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus, asking, ?Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath???so that they might accuse Him. And He said to them, ?What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out

Matthew 12:9 Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10 and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to bring charges against Jesus,(A) they asked him, ?Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath??(B)

11 He said to them, ?If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out?(C) 12 How much more valuable is a person than a sheep!(D) Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.?

John 7:23
If a boy can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses will not be broken, why are you angry with Me for making the whole man well on the Sabbath?
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Offline eik

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Re: Should Christians eat pork? Drink alcohol? Celebrate Christmas?
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2021, 09:24:42 AM »
Jesus said that the sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath. This means that a man has to figure out for himself how exactly he is going to observe the Sabbath and keep it holy . Which must  includes not working on the day and making it a day of rest
Why? Supposing someone has a project to finish and they are overtime. Why should not that person work on the Sabbath to fulfil his contractual obligations? If his faith allows it, who are you to condemn?

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Re: Should Christians eat pork? Drink alcohol? Celebrate Christmas?
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2021, 03:12:09 PM »
Why? Supposing someone has a project to finish and they are overtime. Why should not that person work on the Sabbath to fulfil his contractual obligations? If his faith allows it, who are you to condemn?

No we are speaking of the concept of Sabbath not judging people regarding the sabbath. The way people observe the Sabbath is between them and God. But we were speaking whether the sabbath must be observed. But the truth is, this is how all compromise starts through setting your mind on the things of man and not God such as the example you have given.
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Re: Should Christians eat pork? Drink alcohol? Celebrate Christmas?
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2021, 03:20:41 AM »
No we are speaking of the concept of Sabbath not judging people regarding the sabbath. The way people observe the Sabbath is between them and God. But we were speaking whether the sabbath must be observed.
The Sabbath as it is defined in the Torah doesn't have to be observed, if you are a Gentile. Period. Moreover if it is observed it is likely to be observed for all the wrong reasons, such as seeking to be justified by Sabbath observance.

But the truth is, this is how all compromise starts through setting your mind on the things of man and not God such as the example you have given.
There will always be "compromise" between the higher spiritual law and the lower commandments such as do this, do that. The use of "compromise" here is not useful, because the "spiritual" has the right to prevail under Christ. So if completing my ultra important personal project on time to fulfil third party expectations can be accomplished by sacrificing a few or more Sabbaths worth of rest (as per Jesus himself) then it sounds like a good deal. But on the other hand it "may be" immoral for an Employer to demand work on the Sabbath even for that reason.

It's a question of morality, of spiritual worth and overall benefit or utilitarianism, not "compromise."


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Re: Should Christians eat pork? Drink alcohol? Celebrate Christmas?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2021, 10:24:06 PM »
Quote
The Sabbath as it is defined in the Torah doesn't have to be observed, if you are a Gentile. Period. Moreover if it is observed it is likely to be observed for all the wrong reasons, such as seeking to be justified by Sabbath observance.

All of the commandments are for us to follow, not just for the Jewish people and observing the Sabbath is one of the 10 commandments. Jesus did not abolish any of the 10 commandments.

Matthew 19:17 - ?Why ask me about what is good?? Jesus replied. ?There is only One who is good. But to answer your question?if you want to receive eternal life, keep[a] the commandments.?

Quote
There will always be "compromise" between the higher spiritual law and the lower commandments such as do this, do that. The use of "compromise" here is not useful, because the "spiritual" has the right to prevail under Christ. So if completing my ultra important personal project on time to fulfil third party expectations can be accomplished by sacrificing a few or more Sabbaths worth of rest (as per Jesus himself) then it sounds like a good deal. But on the other hand it "may be" immoral for an Employer to demand work on the Sabbath even for that reason.

It's a question of morality, of spiritual worth and overall benefit or utilitarianism, not "compromise."

No, all the commandments must be observed through the teachings of Jesus and where we fall short, we ask for forgiveness and repend and God is sure to forgive us.

1 John 1:9 - But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.

But we must be able to identify our sin in order to admit it to God. We do this through Jesus' teachings. This is not possible, however, if we compromise his teachings.
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Offline eik

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Re: Should Christians eat pork? Drink alcohol? Celebrate Christmas?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2021, 04:47:18 PM »
All of the commandments are for us to follow, not just for the Jewish people and observing the Sabbath is one of the 10 commandments. Jesus did not abolish any of the 10 commandments.

Matthew 19:17 - ?Why ask me about what is good?? Jesus replied. ?There is only One who is good. But to answer your question?if you want to receive eternal life, keep[a] the commandments.?
You seem to be contradicting yourself. You said people are not to be judged for how they observe the Sabbath, and now you're saying they will be judged.

Let me ask you again? Are you seeking to be justified by obeying the law or by faith in Christ? What if Christ commands someone to work on the Sabbath?

Col 2:16 "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day."


No, all the commandments must be observed through the teachings of Jesus and where we fall short, we ask for forgiveness and repend and God is sure to forgive us.

1 John 1:9 - But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.

But we must be able to identify our sin in order to admit it to God. We do this through Jesus' teachings. This is not possible, however, if we compromise his teachings.
Not so (in respect of Sabbath observance), because Rom 7:6 "But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." As Jesus worked on the Sabbath for a higher spiritual good, so he may require us to also.

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Re: Should Christians eat pork? Drink alcohol? Celebrate Christmas?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2021, 08:03:38 PM »
Quote
You seem to be contradicting yourself. You said people are not to be judged for how they observe the Sabbath, and now you're saying they will be judged.

I am saying the way a person observes the Sabbath or even the day they observe it should never be judged. But not whether a person is observing the Sabbath or not. This is a commandment by God and Jesus never tells us otherwise.

Quote
Let me ask you again? Are you seeking to be justified by obeying the law or by faith in Christ?

We are justified by faith in Jesus' interpretation of Gods word, law and commandments. I am justified by this faith.

Romans 8:2-11 - For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
     
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Meaning we must not follow the law through our own interpretation but rather through Jesus' - meaning through the Spirit.

Quote
What if Christ commands someone to work on the Sabbath?

He doesn't command anyone to work on the Sabbath - unless you are speaking of spiritual work, which of course if Jesus said to do that, I agree with it.

Quote
Not so, because Rom 7:6 "But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."

The law is open to our interpretation. This is what God has released us from because it says that we serve in the 'new way' which is through the Spirit; which is based on Jesus' teachings.

John 14:26
John 15:26

In no way, do we nullify the law.

Romans 3:21-31 - But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness is given through faith in h Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, i through the shedding of his blood?to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished? 26he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Matthew 5:17-19 - ?Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


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Offline eik

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Re: Should Christians eat pork? Drink alcohol? Celebrate Christmas?
« Reply #15 on: Yesterday at 01:42:06 PM »
I am saying the way a person observes the Sabbath or even the day they observe it should never be judged. But not whether a person is observing the Sabbath or not. This is a commandment by God and Jesus never tells us otherwise.
Was Jesus observing the Sabbath when he cured on the Sabbath?

Seems to me you are nitpicking.


We are justified by faith in Jesus' interpretation of Gods word, law and commandments. I am justified by this faith.

Romans 8:2-11 - For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
     
9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Meaning we must not follow the law through our own interpretation but rather through Jesus' - meaning through the Spirit.

He doesn't command anyone to work on the Sabbath - unless you are speaking of spiritual work, which of course if Jesus said to do that, I agree with it.
But who are you to judge whether someone else's work is spiritual? Who gave you that authority to judge?


The law is open to our interpretation. This is what God has released us from because it says that we serve in the 'new way' which is through the Spirit; which is based on Jesus' teachings.

John 14:26
John 15:26

In no way, do we nullify the law.

Romans 3:21-31 - But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness is given through faith in h Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, i through the shedding of his blood?to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished? 26he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Matthew 5:17-19 - ?Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Again if you say spiritual work can be done on the Sabbath, whom are you to define what is spiritual if that person is indeed a follower of Christ?


 

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