Author Topic: Should Christians eat pork? Drink alcohol? Celebrate Christmas?  (Read 941 times)

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Offline Amos Ministries

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Re: Should Christians eat pork? Drink alcohol? Celebrate Christmas?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2021, 10:02:21 PM »
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Was Jesus observing the Sabbath when he cured on the Sabbath?

Seems to me you are nitpicking.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, so anything he did was okay on the Sabbath. All of his work was spiritual.

My point is however you observe the Sabbath, it is not to be judged. But Jesus never said NOT to observe the Sabbath. It makes perfect sense, just maybe you don't like it.

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But who are you to judge whether someone else's work is spiritual? Who gave you that authority to judge?

1 Corinthians 5:12 - It isn?t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning.

John 7:24 - Do not judge by the outward appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.?

Lev 19:15 - ?Do not twist justice in legal matters by favoring the poor or being partial to the rich and powerful. Always judge people fairly.

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Again if you say spiritual work can be done on the Sabbath, whom are you to define what is spiritual if that person is indeed a follower of Christ?

Seeking after money on a Sabbath is not spiritual work. If we can't discern right and wrong and spiritual from physical then we are in trouble!

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Re: Should Christians eat pork? Drink alcohol? Celebrate Christmas?
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2021, 03:16:14 PM »
Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, so anything he did was okay on the Sabbath. All of his work was spiritual.

My point is however you observe the Sabbath, it is not to be judged. But Jesus never said NOT to observe the Sabbath. It makes perfect sense, just maybe you don't like it.
Does it matter what he didn't say? He said "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

I appreciate the distinction you make is a valid one, between total non-observance, and qualified observance, yet Paul says this:

Rom 14:5 "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

"He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks."

"For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself."

You implied that to the spiritual man, everything he does is spiritual, as indeed Christ himself, for you said "anything he did was okay on the Sabbath."

Sabbath observance was to remind the relatively unspiritual Israelites of God's holiness, but the spiritual man has God's holiness in his sight all the time.

The point is that if Jesus regarded his own work as supervening the prevailing Sabbath rules, then so can his followers. The same goes for dietary requirements.

1 Corinthians 5:12 - It isn?t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning.

John 7:24 - Do not judge by the outward appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.?

Lev 19:15 - ?Do not twist justice in legal matters by favoring the poor or being partial to the rich and powerful. Always judge people fairly.

Seeking after money on a Sabbath is not spiritual work. If we can't discern right and wrong and spiritual from physical then we are in trouble!
Not necessarily "seeking after money." It may be a matter of fulfilling contractual or educational obligations, like revising for exams. This is one area where there can be no judgement on other Christians, and no command from you to tell them what to do.

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Re: Should Christians eat pork? Drink alcohol? Celebrate Christmas?
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2021, 01:05:39 AM »
eik,

Any particular reason for referencing Roman 14 when discussing the Sabbath?

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Re: Should Christians eat pork? Drink alcohol? Celebrate Christmas?
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2021, 11:01:01 AM »
eik,

Any particular reason for referencing Roman 14 when discussing the Sabbath?
Rom 14 seems to be eminently suited to the topic at hand:

"So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin."

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Re: Should Christians eat pork? Drink alcohol? Celebrate Christmas?
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2021, 06:26:51 PM »
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Does it matter what he didn't say? He said "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath."

This in no way implies that Jesus is saying NOT to observe the Sabbath. And if we do things Jesus did not say, then we are just making things up and following our own way since the Old Testament clearly states to observe the Sabbath.

Jesus is showing us how to fulfill the Sabbath - not abolishing it. He is teaching us that helping a brother or sister out of a spiritual 'ditch', healing, etch. is all work that you are permitted to do on a Sabbath. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, meaning anything he says you can do on a Sabbath (such as healing, ministering to others, etc) is permitted.

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The point is that if Jesus regarded his own work as supervening the prevailing Sabbath rules, then so can his followers. The same goes for dietary requirements.

No, because Jesus' full time work was spiritual. Much like a Pastor working on the Sabbath. But a man merely seeking after money on the Sabbath has not observed it righteously. So yes, if you are a disciple of Jesus, meaning you have given up all to follow him and preach the Good News, then even when you do your work on the Sabbath, you are still observing it.

Luke 14:33 - In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
Mark 16:15 - And then he told them, ?Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone.
Matthew 28:19 - Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

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Not necessarily "seeking after money." It may be a matter of fulfilling contractual or educational obligations, like revising for exams. This is one area where there can be no judgement on other Christians, and no command from you to tell them what to do.

God is above exams and earthly jobs. Much like a police office who murders someone in the line of duty. God did not force that person to be or continue to be a police office. In fact, He calls people to give up all and preach the Gospel. God will not recognize his obligations as a Police officer on his day of judgment. His police commissioner is not greater than Jesus. Of course, we must follow no other but Jesus and murder is murder.



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Re: Should Christians eat pork? Drink alcohol? Celebrate Christmas?
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2021, 07:13:44 AM »
This in no way implies that Jesus is saying NOT to observe the Sabbath. And if we do things Jesus did not say, then we are just making things up and following our own way since the Old Testament clearly states to observe the Sabbath.
You really are missing the point.

The point is the measure of judgement, the standard of judgement. What standard will be applied to the spiritual man? Every criticism of Christ's activities on the Sabbath was met with the charge of hypocrisy or failure to grasp what the law permitted on the part of his accusers.

Your standard of judgement is one I find to be continual hypocrisy, i.e. a failure to show any doctrinal basis for sitting in judgement on another. You're always sitting in judgement even in respect of matters you know nothing about, and are factually clueless about, even over matters that the apostles themselves didn't condemn, such as work. Have you an agenda that is other than biblical, I wonder? Is it based in a political agenda against a class of person to which you do not aspire?

Do you think Paul rested on his missionary journeys on every Sabbath day or did he carry on walking in the dangerous terrain through which he passed? And if he carried on walking, I presume you would come in and critique him for not resting on the Sabbath? Or was his activity legitimate in your eyes, so that he could carry on walking, whereas another's would not be perhaps, and so they would be forced to rest, if say, they were just visiting a family relation?

If someone's life is devoted to God's grand spiritual enterprise, what's it got to do with you what they do on the Sabbath? What's it got to do with YOU? Who appointed YOU to be someone else's judge?

What Christ did on the Sabbath was limited to his own time. We no longer live in that era but in industrial societies. Did people have exams to revise for in Jesus' era? Did they have contractual hours to fulfil or deliveries to make on time? Who are you to judge what is and isn't a spiritual enterprise for the Christian?


Jesus is showing us how to fulfill the Sabbath - not abolishing it. He is teaching us that helping a brother or sister out of a spiritual 'ditch', healing, etch. is all work that you are permitted to do on a Sabbath. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, meaning anything he says you can do on a Sabbath (such as healing, ministering to others, etc) is permitted.

No, because Jesus' full time work was spiritual. Much like a Pastor working on the Sabbath. But a man merely seeking after money on the Sabbath has not observed it righteously. So yes, if you are a disciple of Jesus, meaning you have given up all to follow him and preach the Good News, then even when you do your work
on the Sabbath, you are still observing it.
Your criticism of those who work is nothing to do with Sabbath work. You despise them, period. I can take it because you are as nothing contrasted to the apostles who didn't criticize those who earned a living.

Luke 14:33 - In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
Mark 16:15 - And then he told them, ?Go into all the world and preach the Good News to everyone.
Matthew 28:19 - Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.
And of the Pharisees, who were very concerned with Sabbath observance, he said this: MAtt 23:15 "You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. "Woe to you, blind guides!"

God is above exams and earthly jobs. Much like a police office who murders someone in the line of duty. God did not force that person to be or continue to be a police office. In fact, He calls people to give up all and preach the Gospel. God will not recognize his obligations as a Police officer on his day of judgment. His police commissioner is not greater than Jesus. Of course, we must follow no other but Jesus and murder is murder.
Again, you're not seeing the situation aright. He called on those who were to follow him in his earthly ministry to give up all to hear and learn from him. Yet Jesus is no longer on earth.

Preaching the gospel is a different context to following Christ in person, because Christ is now in heaven. How and in what manner the gospel is preached or upheld today is for everyone to decide for themselves. And not all have the gift of evangelism.


Offline rstrats

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Re: Should Christians eat pork? Drink alcohol? Celebrate Christmas?
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2021, 07:47:59 PM »
Rom 14 seems to be eminently suited to the topic at hand:



I don't see how.  The entire chapter from start to finish is discussing issues related to food and eating.  Nothing is said with regard to the Sabbath.

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Re: Should Christians eat pork? Drink alcohol? Celebrate Christmas?
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2021, 08:19:10 PM »
You really are missing the point.

The point is the measure of judgement, the standard of judgement. What standard will be applied to the spiritual man? Every criticism of Christ's activities on the Sabbath was met with the charge of hypocrisy or failure to grasp what the law permitted on the part of his accusers.

Your standard of judgement is one I find to be continual hypocrisy, i.e. a failure to show any doctrinal basis for sitting in judgement on another. You're always sitting in judgement even in respect of matters you know nothing about, and are factually clueless about, even over matters that the apostles themselves didn't condemn, such as work. Have you an agenda that is other than biblical, I wonder? Is it based in a political agenda against a class of person to which you do not aspire?

Do you think Paul rested on his missionary journeys on every Sabbath day or did he carry on walking in the dangerous terrain through which he passed? And if he carried on walking, I presume you would come in and critique him for not resting on the Sabbath? Or was his activity legitimate in your eyes, so that he could carry on walking, whereas another's would not be perhaps, and so they would be forced to rest, if say, they were just visiting a family relation?

If someone's life is devoted to God's grand spiritual enterprise, what's it got to do with you what they do on the Sabbath? What's it got to do with YOU? Who appointed YOU to be someone else's judge?

What Christ did on the Sabbath was limited to his own time. We no longer live in that era but in industrial societies. Did people have exams to revise for in Jesus' era? Did they have contractual hours to fulfil or deliveries to make on time? Who are you to judge what is and isn't a spiritual enterprise for the Christian?

Your criticism of those who work is nothing to do with Sabbath work. You despise them, period. I can take it because you are as nothing contrasted to the apostles who didn't criticize those who earned a living.
And of the Pharisees, who were very concerned with Sabbath observance, he said this: MAtt 23:15 "You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. "Woe to you, blind guides!"
Again, you're not seeing the situation aright. He called on those who were to follow him in his earthly ministry to give up all to hear and learn from him. Yet Jesus is no longer on earth.

Preaching the gospel is a different context to following Christ in person, because Christ is now in heaven. How and in what manner the gospel is preached or upheld today is for everyone to decide for themselves. And not all have the gift of evangelism.

Listen, this is a waste of time. You are a compromiser of the word. You believe the ways of the world are more important than God's. You believe that your job or education are more important than God's law and commandments.

We are to judge those inside the church but you seem to ignore this scripture too. What you say about Paul walking on the Sabbath being against God's law; I have never said this and once again you are imagining things an twisting words.

1 Corinthians 5:12 - It isn?t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning.

Of course I can judge because what you are saying is not biblical! Where is it said to put your job before Jesus?

Matthew 10:37 - "Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

If Jesus is saying to put him before one's own children or parents, I don't think you have much of an argument putting your job or education before him.

John 4:15 - "Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God."

John 14:21 - Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.?

John 15:10 - If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father?s commands and remain in his love.

John 14:23 - Jesus replied, ?Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.

1 John 2:3 - We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands.

1 John 5:3 - In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

2 John 1:6 - And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Please provide scripture for all your assertions from now on since you make up the things you state.

You are also taking scripture out of context. Please don't keep writing to me, as you are a compromiser, unrepentant and are wasting my time. You are going in circles trying to make the word say whatever you want to. Clearly Jesus had no possessions and gave up all to preach the gospel.

1 John 2:6 - Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
1 John 2:4 - Whoever says, ?I know him,? but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

Acts 18:6 - But when they opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, ?Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.?

Ezekiel 3:19 - But if you do warn the wicked person and they do not turn from their wickedness or from their evil ways, they will die for their sin; but you will have saved yourself.

Ezekiel 33:4- then if anyone hears the trumpet but does not heed the warning and the sword comes and takes their life, their blood will be on their own head.

Acts 13:51 - So they shook the dust off their feet as a warning to them and went to Iconium.

Luke 14:33 clearly states Jesus' command. We'll have to agree to disagree since this is a waste of time.

Hebrews 6:4-8 -  It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[a] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

Luke 16:14 - The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus.





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