Author Topic: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping  (Read 862 times)

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Offline davetaff

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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2021, 10:10:51 AM »

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Hi
There is nothing wrong with money its a great invention the  problem lies in the love of money.

      For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.
1 Timothy 6:10 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1ti.6.10.ESV 

      Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, ?I will never leave you nor forsake you.? So we can confidently say,  ?The Lord is my helper;  I will not fear; what can man do to me??
Hebrews 13:5-‬6 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/heb.13.5-6.ESV           


So its the love of money that produces all sorts of evil and we can see this in the world everything is centered around acquiring as much as possible.

Love and peace
Dave
https://bible.com/bible/59/1ti.6.10.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/heb.13.5-6.ESV

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Offline Amos Ministries

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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2021, 08:07:03 PM »
I think you've rather proved my point how easy it is to deceive Christians by waffling on about the love of money into either giving their money away or consigning their lives to penury. They are prey to every charlatan imposing on their charity. The love of money is not oberved in working for one's living. As Paul said:


Acts 3:6 - But Peter said, ?I don?t have any silver or gold for you. But I?ll give you what I have. In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene,[a] get up and walk!?

Matthew 9:9 - As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector?s booth. ?Follow me,? he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.

Matthew 4:20 - And they left their nets at once and followed him.

Acts 2:45 - They sold their property and possessions and shared the money with those in need.

Luke 12:33 - Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

Luke 16:9 - I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

Luke 18:22 - Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Acts 4:34 - that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles? feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

[/quote] 2 Thess 3:10 "For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat." We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies. Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat." [/quote]

This is speaking to people who won't work in the word or do the work of the Kingdom of Heaven

Many Christians live on the bread line. Idleness leads to impositions on others and / or penury. There is a very famous quote from the Talmud, "He who does not teach his son a trade teaches him to steal."

It is relatively self-evident, that a person without a vocation or education of any sort will have no choice but to resort to thievery or deception in order to feed him or herself. Unless you have a clear calling to do some work in the church or charity that has a clear revenue stream attached, or can be self-financed, it's rather foolish to embark on it, whatever the propaganda fed about the "love of money" which doesn't obviously apply to most to any great extent except the rich and / or the vain.


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Offline Amos Ministries

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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2021, 08:10:56 PM »
Hi
There is nothing wrong with money its a great invention the  problem lies in the love of money.

The love of money is greed

      For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.
1 Timothy 6:10 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1ti.6.10.ESV 

GREED!

      Keep your life free from love of money, and be content with what you have, for he has said, ?I will never leave you nor forsake you.? So we can confidently say,  ?The Lord is my helper;  I will not fear; what can man do to me??
Hebrews 13:5-‬6 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/heb.13.5-6.ESV           


So its the love of money that produces all sorts of evil and we can see this in the world everything is centered around acquiring as much as possible.

Greed in the Bible is not giving up all for God.

Luke 14:33 - So therefore, whoever of you does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple


Love and peace
Dave
https://bible.com/bible/59/1ti.6.10.ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/heb.13.5-6.ESV
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Offline eik

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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2021, 01:06:29 PM »
Acts 3:6 - But Peter said, ?I don?t have any silver or gold for you. But I?ll give you what I have. In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene,[a] get up and walk!?

Matthew 9:9 - As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector?s booth. ?Follow me,? he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.

Matthew 4:20 - And they left their nets at once and followed him.

Acts 2:45 - They sold their property and possessions and shared the money with those in need.

Luke 12:33 - Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

Luke 16:9 - I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

Luke 18:22 - Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Acts 4:34 - that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles? feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

 2 Thess 3:10 "For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat." We hear that some among you are idle. They are not busy; they are busybodies. Such people we command and urge in the Lord Jesus Christ to settle down and earn the bread they eat."

This is speaking to people who won't work in the word or do the work of the Kingdom of Heaven
True, yet we must put everything into context before we raise the issue of people in the real world "loving money." It's the use of money for pleasure and for selfish ends  that I think the scriptures really object to. Holidays, cars, fines clothes, expensive eating out, the worldly pleasures etc. These are the things we need to avoid.

Most people are only a few pay checks away from bankruptcy. Many have more than one job.

People in the UK owed GBP1,688.5 billion at the end of October 2020. The average total debt per household, including mortgages, was GBP60,580.

People in the time of Christ owed nothing because Israelite society wasn't based on debt. It was a far fairer society. It was based on different principles.

The UK is not a Christian society. The ancient church banned usury, and still even in the 16th century taught "It is always wrong to exact usury from a poor man." The UK is a society that  revels in exhorting high rates of interest from the poor. It is a ruthless society, where the rich live well, and the poor are their slaves.

There is a necessity to be wise about money in the modern era, and for teaching about avoiding how to waste it on accumulating goods, and unprofitable things, and things that depreciate. I calculate I have saved about GBP5000 over the years by not having a TV licence and not buyings TVs, and a lot more than that by maintaining my old car coming up to 30 years old. This contrasts with many including pastors who drive around in fairly new cars.

When we look at the bible teachings we need to get money in a sense of proportion and not think we can necessily literally apply the teachings of Christ's day that referred to those living in a theocracy with few taxes, and in a clement climate. In today's society so much goes in taxes, rents etc and in expenses, so that many hardly have anything left to live on. We can't afford to sell all that we have and give it to the poor, otherwise we'll all end up sleeping on the streets.

Moreover the poor are provided for by social security and what the poor spend their spare money on is often not beneficial to them because they are not Christians. We need to wise up that today's "poor" are not necessarily on the same priority level as they were in Jesus' day, where they were literally starving and / or homeless having no welfare.


Offline Amos Ministries

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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2021, 05:00:52 PM »
Here enlies the problem where you think the Bible is not addressing the real world. What world is the Bible addressing them only in ancient world and is no longer relevant today. This is a Bible with no power and its useless then in today?s modern world If it only addresses an ancient world.  It was just as hard for the disciples back then to give up all as it is for us to do today maybe even harder. Since back then they had debtors prison Jesus even speaks of this stating and you?ll stay there until every penny is paid Referring spiritually to hell and our debt as sin but still we get the point that there was a debtors prison during Jesus?s time, the concept.

Debtors Prison was a lot worse than what we have today, we can go into bankruptcy protection But in those days you actually languished in prison until your debt was paid by someone on the outside. This is a lot worse conditions than what we have today. In those conditions the disciples were expected still to give up all and did. Also in those days there was no government support as in the case with Lazarus and the rich man you can see this by the way he?s living on the streets eating scraps From the rich mans table and the dogs are licking his sores.We can see by the story that there is no healthcare no soup line kitchens and no government support.

 No I don?t agree, I think the times were tougher back then but they still gave up all.  The scriptures  specifically state in Luke 14 verse 33 that we must give up all our possessions and in Luke 12 it states we must go and sell all our possessions  and give the money to the poor. We overlook this at our own demise. I understand it is a tough concept and takes great faith to except but this is what God expects from us.  When you look at the short time we have here on earth do you realize that suffering in that way for a short time it?s not that long and not that bad compared to an eternity in the kingdom of heaven this is the faith that we must have. The alternative is we enjoy these few short years down here on earth and suffer eternal damnation.

A few checks away from bankruptcy And giving up all are a big difference They?re not the same thing. In the time of Jesus they also actually had slaves people would sell their freedom due to debt to another and become their slave so once again I think there society was more harsh than ours.  The Bible doesn?t claim we need to Wisen up the poor but rather Jesus said blessed are the poor the Bible states we need to Wisen up the rich in the book of James it says to instruct Rich not to trust in the riches and that their day is coming when they will howl in pain. Your views on money or not aligned With the teachings of Jesus.

You would not end up sleeping on the streets either since you?re meeting the part of the scripture in Luke chapter 12 that states if you seek the kingdom of heaven and it?s righteousness first God will add these things to you meaning food clothing you needs.We must have faith in God?s words and Jesus?s teachings if he says he will add these things to us without us toiling or seeking it then we must believe it. His word is eternal it is not only relevant for Back  then it is relevant today in our modern world as well it is wrong to say that God could only provide back then but in today?s world he can no longer provide that?s an excuse.
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Offline eik

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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2021, 12:15:33 PM »
Here enlies the problem where you think the Bible is not addressing the real world. What world is the Bible addressing them only in ancient world and is no longer relevant today. This is a Bible with no power and its useless then in today?
I never said that: I merely said we can't necessarily apply the words of Jesus literally today. I don't think that is open to challenge. We have to make sense of them.

It was just as hard for the disciples back then to give up all as it is for us to do today maybe even harder. Since back then they had debtors prison Jesus even speaks of this stating and you?ll stay there until every penny is paid Referring spiritually to hell and our debt as sin but still we get the point that there was a debtors prison during Jesus?s time, the concept.

Debtors Prison was a lot worse than what we have today, we can go into bankruptcy protection But in those days you actually languished in prison until your debt was paid by someone on the outside.
From the 14th to 19th century in UK, debtors could also end up in prison for non-payment of debts. The disciples didn't necessarily give up their trades. Paul the tent maker continued to practice his, all his life. I guess when they went on missionary journeys, they made sure to take enough with them to pay their debts. Thus they were not paupers. We should not think the discriples went around begging, living is wretched poverty with no money, like the Franciscan friars.

This is a lot worse conditions than what we have today. In those conditions the disciples were expected still to give up all and did. Also in those days there was no government support as in the case with Lazarus and the rich man you can see this by the way he?s living on the streets eating scraps From the rich mans table and the dogs are licking his sores.We can see by the story that there is no healthcare no soup line kitchens and no government support.
///edited.

The Christians after the time of Christ did not give up everything. Paul says each person should retain his station in life, except for apostles, obviously. The apostles at least were at the head of a mega church that was growing exponentially. Not that the Christians in Jerusalem were rich. They were clearly very poor because other churches organized collections for them. Yet there were enough Christians to provide for them. It wouldn't have been true if every discriple had renounced their living.

I think the times were tougher back then but they still gave up all.  The scriptures  specifically state in Luke 14 verse 33 that we must give up all our possessions and in Luke 12 it states we must go and sell all our possessions  and give the money to the poor. We overlook this at our own demise. I understand it is a tough concept and takes great faith to except but this is what God expects from us.  When you look at the short time we have here on earth do you realize that suffering in that way for a short time it?s not that long and not that bad compared to an eternity in the kingdom of heaven this is the faith that we must have. The alternative is we enjoy these few short years down here on earth and suffer eternal damnation.
Your teaching seems non-contextual to the reality of being a disciple after the time of Christ. There were also special conditions applying to those who would follow the living Christ. To follow him in person, they had to give up their possessions and secular lives: such was imperative. They wouldn't get another opportunity to hear him. Yet it did not mean that they were required to sell everything to make their own families destitute. Here is an exegesis I copied which suggests that they didn't:

"Zacchaeus, whose  story follows thatof the rich ruler,  wasn't  told  to sell everything.  Instead, Zacchaeus  determined  to give half of what he had to the poor and promised to repay fourfold anyone he had cheated (Luke 19:8 ). That's  a substantial  offer, but it's not necessarily everything. We are told that Levi left every-thing and followed Jesus,  but the next thing we are told is that he provided a "great feast" at his house for Jesus (Luke5:27-39). Peter told Jesus, "Look, we have left our homes and followed  you"(Luke  18:28). Yet it is not altogether clear that Peter sold his house and left his wife and mother-in-lawhomeless. In fact, Mark suggests that Peter's  house became a base of operations  for Jesus in Capemaum  (Mark1:29-32)."
https://digitalcommons.pepperdine.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1773&context=leaven

Then we have Paul's very clear teaching:

"Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." 1 Tim 5:8

A few checks away from bankruptcy And giving up all are a big difference They?re not the same thing. In the time of Jesus they also actually had slaves people would sell their freedom due to debt to another and become their slave so once again I think there society was more harsh than ours.  The Bible doesn?t claim we need to Wisen up the poor but rather Jesus said blessed are the poor the Bible states we need to Wisen up the rich in the book of James it says to instruct Rich not to trust in the riches and that their day is coming when they will howl in pain. Your views on money or not aligned With the teachings of Jesus.
I never detracted from Jesus' teaching "Blessed are the poor...."

I was pointing out that today's "poor" are not in the same position as those in Jesus' day.

I said nothing about the rich.

The poor that Jesus was referring to was of course the Israelite poor, the elect of God. Today's poor pagans who are for the most part not Christians are not the elect of God. There is nothing in scripture that suggests that the apostles devoted themselves to serving the needs of the pagan poor.

You would not end up sleeping on the streets either since you?re meeting the part of the scripture in Luke chapter 12 that states if you seek the kingdom of heaven and it?s righteousness first God will add these things to you meaning food clothing you needs.
Not so. If you make yourself intentionally homeless the local authority has no duty to house you. Nowhere do any of the apostles teach that one should make oneself homeless.

It is clear that a change took place upon Jesus' death. What applied in the time of his life no longer applied after his death. His teaching on possessions changed:

Luk 22:35
"Then Jesus asked them, ?When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?? ?Nothing,? they answered. He said to them, ?But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don?t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: ?And he was numbered with the transgressors."

You see in this day, Christians are numbers amongst the transgressors. They cannot depend on a pagan society for sustenance. If they make themselves debtors, they will indeed become debtors unless their friendly neighbourhood church takes pity on them. It won't always. Our pagan societies will not treat such people kindly as you have pointed out.


We must have faith in God?s words and Jesus?s teachings if he says he will add these things to us without us toiling or seeking it then we must believe it. His word is eternal it is not only relevant for Back  then it is relevant today in our modern world as well it is wrong to say that God could only provide back then but in today?s world he can no longer provide that?s an excuse.
You are not reading the teachings of Christ right. You need to understand that the period of Christ's ministry in the nation of Israel is not the same context as today's pagan society.


https://digitalcommons.pepperdine.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1773&context=leaven

Offline Amos Ministries

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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2021, 05:11:35 PM »
Quote
I never said that: I merely said we can't necessarily apply the words of Jesus literally today. I don't think that is open to challenge. We have to make sense of them.

We understand Jesus and his message by faith and not logic. The scriptures state it is impossible to please God without faith.

Quote
The disciples didn't necessarily give up their trades.

Yes they did. Peter and Andrew left their nets and heir father and followed Jesus. Peter states "we have given up everything to follow you!" (Matt 19:27). Matthew the tax collector closed up his books and followed Jesus too.

Quote
Paul the tent maker continued to practice his, all his life.
This is not true. The bible states that Paul 'robbed' other churches to be able to preach to the Corinthians 2 Cor 11:8
He was supported by the church in Macedonia.

Quote
Thus they were not paupers. We should not think the discriples went around begging, living is wretched poverty with no money, like the Franciscan friars.

Peter said "gold and silver I do not have"

2 Corinthians 6:10 -  sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything.

Jesus said 'the son of man has no place to lay his head.'

Quote
///edited.

The Christians after the time of Christ did not give up everything. Paul says each person should retain his station in life, except for apostles, obviously. The apostles at least were at the head of a mega church that was growing exponentially. Not that the Christians in Jerusalem were rich. They were clearly very poor because other churches organized collections for them. Yet there were enough Christians to provide for them. It wouldn't have been true if every discriple had renounced their living.

I think it?s wrong to compare the Apostles to the current church who do not give up anything for Jesus, after the Apostles gave up all their possessions and more importantly, their lives for Jesus.

Quote
Yet it did not mean that they were required to sell everything to make their own families destitute. Here is an exegesis I copied which suggests that they didn't:

Luke 14:33 - In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

Quote
"Zacchaeus, whose  story follows thatof the rich ruler,  wasn't  told  to sell everything.  Instead, Zacchaeus  determined  to give half of what he had to the poor and promised to repay fourfold anyone he had cheated (Luke 19:8 ).

Zacchaeus said he would give ? to the poor and out of the other half, he would repay everyone he cheated as a chief tax collector - that must probably was a lot! Essentially Zaccheus is saying ?all?.


Quote
We are told that Levi left every-thing and followed Jesus,  but the next thing we are told is that he provided a "great feast" at his house for Jesus (Luke5:27-39)

This would depend on timelines.

Quote
Yet it is not altogether clear that Peter sold his house and left his wife and mother-in-lawhomeless. In fact, Mark suggests that Peter's  house became a base of operations  for Jesus in Capemaum  (Mark1:29-32)."


We don?t know if he owned or rented - I didn?t say he was homeless.

Quote
"Anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." 1 Tim 5:8

In this case, you are completely disregarding the scripture where Jesus states if you put the kingdom of heaven first, God will add the things that you need without you seeking for it. So of course, you would not be destitute. And out of what God provides, you must look after your family (Luke 12)

Quote
The poor that Jesus was referring to was of course the Israelite poor, the elect of God. Today's poor pagans who are for the most part not Christians are not the elect of God. There is nothing in scripture that suggests that the apostles devoted themselves to serving the needs of the pagan poor.

You are assuming that all poor are pagans? What about the Christian poor?

Quote
Not so. If you make yourself intentionally homeless the local authority has no duty to house you. Nowhere do any of the apostles teach that one should make oneself homeless.

What I?m saying is in Luke 12, Jesus says if you give up all, God will provide. Even the 1st century church understood this concept.

Acts 2:45 - They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.

Acts 4:34-35 - that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles? feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

Quote
Luk 22:35
?..and if you don?t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 

Jesus was not referring to a literal sword. This is made obvious when you consider how he rebuked Peter for using a sword. Also, if you continue to read the next verse, you will see what Jesus meant.

Verse 38 The disciples said, ?See, Lord, here are two swords.? ?That?s enough!? he replied.

Not literal items but spiritual, otherwise Peter would have been lying when he said ?gold and silver I do not have?.

Quote
You see in this day, Christians are numbers amongst the transgressors. They cannot depend on a pagan society for sustenance. If they make themselves debtors, they will indeed become debtors unless their friendly neighbourhood church takes pity on them. It won't always. Our pagan societies will not treat such people kindly as you have pointed out.
 

Why are you stating Christians need to rely on pagan societies? You lack the faith to know that God will provide if you put the kingdom of heaven first as per luke 12. Then Jesus says (also in luke 12) ?so then go and sell your possessions and give it to the poor?.

Quote
You are not reading the teachings of Christ right. You need to understand that the period of Christ's ministry in the nation of Israel is not the same context as today's pagan society.

This statement is a complete fabrication and excuse for you not to follow the teachings of Jesus. I do not agree at all ?o you of little faith!?

Being poor was the same or possibly worse that today - it?s not an excuses to disobey the teachings of Jesus.

Luke 14:33 - In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.






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Offline eik

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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2021, 10:26:35 PM »
We understand Jesus and his message by faith and not logic. The scriptures state it is impossible to please God without faith.
True, but it is also impossible to please God unless you understand the context to a message. Jesus is not here, this isn't the nation of Israel but the "last days," when antichrist has come and circa 90% of the population doesn't believe the bible is literally true. We can't afford to make ourselves dependent on others whom might impose upon our faiths some unconsionable doctrine.

For so many churches do not put up with sound doctrine.

In the USA, pastors will be sacked if they offend their congregations, who hold the keys to their purses. What is better? That you are self-sufficient and maintain your conscience, or that you become obligated to surrender your conscience to others who hold your purse strings? And so good pastors can spend their lives in penury just because they will not succumb to the liberal demands of congregations.

Paul has prophesied that many will surrender to deceiving spirits. We need to take note that forfeiting possessions necessary for living, such as secular work, such as a house to live in, has real disadvantages even for faith, where so many liberal church leaders do everything to increase their congregations at the expense of sound theology, because they espy that political correctness rather than theological correctness is the key to a good living.

Yes they did. Peter and Andrew left their nets and heir father and followed Jesus. Peter states "we have given up everything to follow you!" (Matt 19:27). Matthew the tax collector closed up his books and followed Jesus too.
It's what I conceded.

This is not true. The bible states that Paul 'robbed' other churches to be able to preach to the Corinthians 2 Cor 11:8
He was supported by the church in Macedonia.
The two are not mutually exclusive.

2Th 3:8 "nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you."

Peter said "gold and silver I do not have"
Coins were mostly in bronze in those days, except the higher denominations.

2 Corinthians 6:10 -  sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything.
That is, nothing as contrasted with others. Obviously he had his personal possessions.

Jesus said 'the son of man has no place to lay his head.'
Yet he found places and was supported by many followers.

I think it?s wrong to compare the Apostles to the current church who do not give up anything for Jesus, after the Apostles gave up all their possessions and more importantly, their lives for Jesus.
You may well be right.

Luke 14:33 - In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
He was talking to his personal followers. Please do not extend the context outside of Christ's ministry on earth, which was a special case. And they didn't give up their houses.

Zacchaeus said he would give ? to the poor and out of the other half, he would repay everyone he cheated as a chief tax collector - that must probably was a lot! Essentially Zaccheus is saying ?all?.
Not necessarily. Just speculation on your part.

In this case, you are completely disregarding the scripture where Jesus states if you put the kingdom of heaven first, God will add the things that you need without you seeking for it. So of course, you would not be destitute. And out of what God provides, you must look after your family (Luke 12)
I think you have to have a sense of reality, otherwise reality will catch up with you. Nothing comes to those who don't search for it. You can't walk around in a daze going your own way. Putting the kingdom of God first is key though.

You are assuming that all poor are pagans? What about the Christian poor?
I made no such assumption. I just said the poor includes many pagans, who are often poor through their own deliberate fault.

What I?m saying is in Luke 12, Jesus says if you give up all, God will provide. Even the 1st century church understood this concept.
That presumes you can find a source of revenue. Paul "robbed" other churches. Not everyone has that luxury.

Acts 2:45 - They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need.
It was a debt free society, unlike ours. Obviously if someone has a large estate, they can do the same.

Acts 4:34-35 - that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles? feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

Jesus was not referring to a literal sword. This is made obvious when you consider how he rebuked Peter for using a sword. Also, if you continue to read the next verse, you will see what Jesus meant.
Verse 38 The disciples said, ?See, Lord, here are two swords.? ?That?s enough!? he replied.

Not literal items but spiritual, otherwise Peter would have been lying when he said ?gold and silver I do not have?.
Of course he was referring to a literal sword. It's just that they didn't need it to defend Jesus.

Why are you stating Christians need to rely on pagan societies? You lack the faith to know that God will provide if you put the kingdom of heaven first as per luke 12. Then Jesus says (also in luke 12) ?so then go and sell your possessions and give it to the poor?.
Well if you're so rich that you can label others as poor, fine. It's all a question of how rich you are. If you're on the breadline, there's not much you can do. Don't forget about the hundreds of thousands shut up in horrible old peoples homes because they didn't save enough money for retirement.

This statement is a complete fabrication and excuse for you not to follow the teachings of Jesus. I do not agree at all ?o you of little faith!?

Being poor was the same or possibly worse that today - it?s not an excuses to disobey the teachings of Jesus.

Luke 14:33 - In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.
I fear you are somewhat deceived. The Catholics had begging orders, when the land was overrun with beggars who never did anything useful and were often immoral. There is nothing wrong with work, and nothing wrong with using wages profitably and nothing wrong in owning your own home.

If you cannot or will not see a distinction between the period of Christ's ministry and what came after it, I think we will have to disagree. We live in pagan societies and not in the land of Israel. We live in the era of antichrist, and churches that are given over to heresy. I find it remarkable you are so willing to recommend sponging off others.

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