Author Topic: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping  (Read 1633 times)

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Offline Amos Ministries

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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2021, 04:35:01 PM »

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Exactly so. He was pointing out that to follow Christ was what was necessary.

How else do you follow Christ if not by doing what he has commanded us to do?

John 14:15 - "If you love me, keep my commands.

John 14:24 - Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

1 John 2:6 - Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Jesus did.

Jesus had no house or riches but God provided for his needs and this is what God promises to do for us if we give up our possessions and put the Holy Spirit first priority in our lives.

Luke 12:22-34 - 22Then Jesus said to his disciples: ?Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life b ? 26Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?

27?Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you?you of little faith! 29And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

32?Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

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Christ never said that the mere possession of a cloak, purse, money, job or wife or anything else was a barrier to following Christ. He said it may be. That is so. Clearly it would have been especially so in the days of his life on earth, because his words were not then written in a book. If you wanted to learn from Christ you literally had to follow him in person. And so you had to give what you were doing. And the gulf between rich and poor was very great indeed.

What you're saying makes no sense because it's pure compromise and manipulation.

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And now, it's not so simple to just literally give up all to follow Christ

All you care about is the world's ways and money. You have no faith. Of course they had taxes, rent, debt in ancient Israel just as it is today. Your statement is foolish.
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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2021, 05:25:12 PM »
Exactly so. He was pointing out that to follow Christ was what was necessary.

Christ never said that the mere possession of a cloak, purse, money, job or wife or anything else was a barrier to following Christ. He said it may be. That is so. Clearly it would have been especially so in the days of his life on earth, because his words were not then written in a book. If you wanted to learn from Christ you literally had to follow him in person. And so you had to give what you were doing. And the gulf between rich and poor was very great indeed.

And now, it's not so simple to just literally give up all to follow Christ, and not quite so necessary due his words being written down, unless what you're giving up is inherently sinful, which it may be, such as an inherently sinful occupation.

Moreover if you give it up in a disorderly way, you may be excommunicating yourself from the profit making section of society. 1 Cor 14:40 "But all things must be done appropriately and in an orderly manner."

If you have rent or a mortgage or Council tax to pay, you'll become destitute in less time than you expect and no-one is going to help those who "give it all up." Prov 6:11 "poverty will come upon you like a robber, and need like a bandit."


Don't discount the divorce from the wife if you fail to maintain her, which will strip you of most of your assets, especially if there are children involved. Unless you want to be some kind of permanent charity worker, fair enough. But the beliefs and values of so many charities are no longer Christian, if they ever were. The beliefs and values of so many churches are no longer Christian. Why would you entrust yourself to such people? I wouldn't. I haven't found a single church to whom I would entrust with my livelihood, where I don't agree with the doctrines of so many liberal churches.

Yet the possibility remains that Christ will call a person to do this or that for him, but it will be an orderly transition, and a called transition, which is to say, an inspired vocation. It will not be a case of instantaneously divesting yourself of everything so as to free yourself from the aspersive (i.e. defamatory) taint of "serving money" which is cast by men and not by God (unless you're like Zaccheus).

The point is that Christ's words cannot be decoupled from apostolic practice and what we do know is that it was never apostolic teaching to make every, or any, Gentile believers give up literally absolutely everything to follow a Christ now reigning in heaven.

Acts 2:45 They sold their property and possessions and shared the money with those in need.

Acts 4:34
There were no needy ones among them, because those who owned lands or houses would sell their property, bring the proceeds from the sales,

Acts 4:35
and lay them at the apostles' feet for distribution to anyone as he had need.

Acts 4:36 Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (meaning Son of Encouragement), 37sold a field he owned, brought the money, and laid it at the apostles? feet.

Matthew 19:27 Then Peter answered Him, saying, ?Look, we have given up everything and followed You [becoming Your disciples and accepting You as Teacher and Lord]; what then will there be for us?


Your words contradict the Bible. You speak out of a lack of faith.
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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2021, 06:56:26 AM »
Your words contradict the Bible. You speak out of a lack of faith.
"But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, burdensome loadsa and lay them on men?s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. All their deeds are done for men to see. They broaden their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels.They love the places of honor at banquets, the chief seats in the synagogues, the greetings in the marketplaces, and the title of ?Rabbi? by which they are addressed." Matt 23:2-7

"You shut the kingdom of heaven in men?s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let in those who wish to enter." Matt 23:13

"You have disregarded the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel." Matt 23:24

Ultimately you'll either have to temper you decontextualizing of bible verses with a demonstration that you have the interest of the kingdom of God at heart, or else I'll conclude (I have already concluded) you're no more than a politician using the bible to set out a political agenda, doubtless based on a variant of liberation theology devoted to overthrowing the current political system.

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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2021, 07:33:38 AM »
"But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, burdensome loadsa and lay them on men?s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. All their deeds are done for men to see. They broaden their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels.They love the places of honor at banquets, the chief seats in the synagogues, the greetings in the marketplaces, and the title of ?Rabbi? by which they are addressed." Matt 23:2-7

"You shut the kingdom of heaven in men?s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let in those who wish to enter." Matt 23:13

"You have disregarded the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel." Matt 23:24

Ultimately you'll either have to temper you decontextualizing of bible verses with a demonstration that you have the interest of the kingdom of God at heart, or else I'll conclude (I have already concluded) you're no more than a politician using the bible to set out a political agenda, doubtless based on a variant of liberation theology devoted to overthrowing the current political system.

What is it that you think I gain by you giving up all. I?m not telling you to give me your money I?m telling you that the Bible says to give it to the poor. You love your money, you will see and do anything to keep it. Of course you will arrive at that conclusion because you love your money you will say and do anything to keep your money for that is your true love. Because you love your money you despise the words of Jesus for you can only love one and you love your money and so you despise Jesus. I don?t have to prove anything to you it is your salvation on the line not mine I?ve told you the truth, let your blood be on your own head. Nothing about this is political I don?t know what you?re talking about but you will say anything to keep your money. Even if it doesn?t make sense, you make no sense but because of your love of money and lack of faith you are saying things that mean nothing. But your money will not save you on the great and terrible day of the Lord.
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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2021, 11:48:20 AM »
What is it that you think I gain by you giving up all. I?m not telling you to give me your money I?m telling you that the Bible says to give it to the poor. You love your money,
Do I? How do you know? Who told you that? If you're so knowledgable tell me how much money I have.

I have already inquired of you which poor should I give my money too in a land of social security. You have refused to answer the question. Moreover you have decontextualized the command of Jesus, where "the poor" was the elect poor of the Israelite nation.

Did Jesus ever command anyone to give the Gentile poor a single cent? No.

Did Jesus even associate with the Gentile poor? No.

Which poor are you talking about, and why are you telling me what to do with my money? May be God wan'ts to use my money to promote the gospel, and to promote the kingdom of God, rather that have it squandered on the latest flat screen TV, the last smart phone, the last pair of trainers or whatever.

you will see and do anything to keep it.
I will?

Of course you will arrive at that conclusion because you love your money you will say and do anything to keep your money for that is your true love. Because you love your money you despise the words of Jesus for you can only love one and you love your money and so you despise Jesus. I don?t have to prove anything to you it is your salvation on the line not mine I?ve told you the truth, let your blood be on your own head.
You are talking tripe. You are directly associating salvation with giving away all one's money. Nowhere was that false gospel ever preached to the Gentiles.

I give my limited money to good causes that promote evangelism only. If it's not directly linked to that, I don't give it away. People who have TVs in their house will never get a penny from me.

I only told you that I work or rather did work for a living as my working life is behind me. And you condemn me to hell? Like the last hypocritical Baptist minister who preached to me who lived in a plus GBP1million house, far bigger than the one I live in currently, had security for life, but had the audacity to tell me that I was a money lover just because I had gotten my first job?

"Pastors" are sometimes crazy, and personally I would sack many of them as incompetent. I've come across those who have given up their jobs and whom spend the rest of their lives demanding money off people. Woe to the pastors who pervert the word of God. There is no gospel teaching for anyone to turn themselves into a beggar, as I have pointed out already.

So many have no business being pastors because they have no qualifications in knowledge, in calling or in vocation. What qualifies you?

Nothing about this is political
Tripe. You've already alluded to some alleged "murder" in Americal which shows your credentials. What's that got to do with anything? I don't think there was any conscionable intention to kill, whatever the legal classification, and I'm not saying that punishment isn't warranted. But a deliberate intention to kill? I think not.


I don?t know what you?re talking about but you will say anything to keep your money. Even if it doesn?t make sense, you make no sense but because of your love of money and lack of faith you are saying things that mean nothing. But your money will not save you on the great and terrible day of the Lord.
If I am so rich, why I am driving around in a 30year old car?

Was Cornelius the Roman Centurion destitute? Did he earn his living? Was he commanded to give up his job by the apostles?

Answer me straight. Yes/No.



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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2021, 11:13:40 PM »
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Do I? How do you know? Who told you that? If you're so knowledgable tell me how much money I have.

How much money you have makes no difference. The point of the matter is whether we can agree that Jesus said we must give up all to be his true disciple. I don't care how much money you have - that's not the point. Even if you only had two pennies, but you refused to give it up for God, you would be a lover of money. The amount of money is not the issue.

Mark 12:41-44 - Jesus sat down near the collection box in the Temple and watched as the crowds dropped in their money. Many rich people put in large amounts. 42Then a poor widow came and dropped in two small coins.j

43Jesus called his disciples to him and said, ?I tell you the truth, this poor widow has given more than all the others who are making contributions. 44For they gave a tiny part of their surplus, but she, poor as she is, has given everything she had to live on.?

Luke 21:1-4 - While Jesus was in the Temple, he watched the rich people dropping their gifts in the collection box. 2Then a poor widow came by and dropped in two small coins.a

3?I tell you the truth,? Jesus said, ?this poor widow has given more than all the rest of them. 4For they have given a tiny part of their surplus, but she, poor as she is, has given everything she has.?

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I have already inquired of you which poor should I give my money too in a land of social security. You have refused to answer the question. Moreover you have decontextualized the command of Jesus, where "the poor" was the elect poor of the Israelite nation.

You are saying there is no one in need in all of England? Sounds like more desperate excuses to hang on to your money....

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Did Jesus ever command anyone to give the Gentile poor a single cent? No.

Jesus did not specify this. Please show me a scripture where Jesus says not to help Gentiles with your money. Let's take a look at how Jesus treated Gentiles. Even though he calls this Gentile woman a 'dog', he still helps her:

Matthew 15:21-28 - Then Jesus left Galilee and went north to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22A Gentile woman who lived there came to him, pleading, ?Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! For my daughter is possessed by a demon that torments her severely.?

23But Jesus gave her no reply, not even a word. Then his disciples urged him to send her away. ?Tell her to go away,? they said. ?She is bothering us with all her begging.?

24Then Jesus said to the woman, ?I was sent only to help God?s lost sheep?the people of Israel.?

25But she came and worshiped him, pleading again, ?Lord, help me!?

26Jesus responded, ?It isn?t right to take food from the children and throw it to the dogs.?

27She replied, ?That?s true, Lord, but even dogs are allowed to eat the scraps that fall beneath their masters? table.?

28?Dear woman,? Jesus said to her, ?your faith is great. Your request is granted.? And her daughter was instantly healed

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Did Jesus even associate with the Gentile poor? No.

Of course he did!
1) Jesus helped the Centurion who was a Gentile,
2) He also helped the Gentile woman in the story mentioned above.
3) Jesus also helped the Samaritans. In fact he stayed with them extra days and Samaritans are people whom the Jews considered idol worshippers!

You're making excuses again....

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Which poor are you talking about, and why are you telling me what to do with my money? May be God wan'ts to use my money to promote the gospel, and to promote the kingdom of God, rather that have it squandered on the latest flat screen TV, the last smart phone, the last pair of trainers or whatever.

Again, I am not telling you what to do with anything. And it's not up to you what people do with the money you give them. Once you've given to them, you've done your part.

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I will?

Yes. You have tried every conceivable angle to dispute the obviously biblical concept of giving up all and relying on God to provide. Your philosophy is based on making your life about seeking after money out of fear and a lack of faith.

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You are talking tripe. You are directly associating salvation with giving away all one's money. Nowhere was that false gospel ever preached to the Gentiles.

Luke 14:33 - So you cannot become my disciple without giving up everything you own.

I have already showed you more than enough scriptures but the love of money has blinded you.

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I give my limited money to good causes that promote evangelism only. If it's not directly linked to that, I don't give it away. People who have TVs in their house will never get a penny from me.
It's not about some charity, it's about giving up all and trusting God for provision.

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I only told you that I work or rather did work for a living as my working life is behind me. And you condemn me to hell? Like the last hypocritical Baptist minister who preached to me who lived in a plus GBP1million house, far bigger than the one I live in currently, had security for life, but had the audacity to tell me that I was a money lover just because I had gotten my first job?

You yourself quoted Matthew 23:3 - So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

So why are you not following your own advise? You are annulling scripture once again.

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"Pastors" are sometimes crazy, and personally I would sack many of them as incompetent. I've come across those who have given up their jobs and whom spend the rest of their lives demanding money off people. Woe to the pastors who pervert the word of God. There is no gospel teaching for anyone to turn themselves into a beggar, as I have pointed out already.

What qualifies you to make this judgment regarding who should preach? Your problem is as soon as you hear 'give up all' you think of 'beggar, poor, destitute' - where is your faith, man? Therefore, you simply cannot fathom how this statement can make any sense. Which one of the disciples do you read about having this kind of outcome? You worship a small god - not the creator of heaven and earth.

You've since edited your comment - and frankly it's becoming a waste of time speaking with you.

I have been holding a dialogue with you for the past 2 weeks - stop twisting the truth.

John 8:43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil,(BC) and you want to carry out your father?s desires.(BD) He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.(BE) 45 Yet because I tell the truth,(BF) you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don?t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says.(BG) The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.?

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Tripe. You've already alluded to some alleged "murder" in Americal which shows your credentials. What's that got to do with anything? I don't think there was any conscionable intention to kill, whatever the legal classification, and I'm not saying that punishment isn't warranted. But a deliberate intention to kill? I think not.

There's nothing political about racism. I have no political agenda when condemning racism. The bible does not condone racism and that is my position. It says in James, that Christians should not be showing any sort of favoritism - as it is a sin. If you show favoritism as a Christian, you are considered a law breaker just as an adulterer or murderer.

The following scriptures actually address 'giving up all' and racism at the same time:

James 2:5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you belong?

8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, ?Love your neighbor as yourself,?you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, ?You shall not commit adultery,?also said, ?You shall not murder.? If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.



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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2021, 06:27:21 PM »
How much money you have makes no difference. The point of the matter is whether we can agree that Jesus said we must give up all to be his true disciple. I don't care how much money you have - that's not the point. Even if you only had two pennies, but you refused to give it up for God, you would be a lover of money. The amount of money is not the issue.
You're just not making any sense. Your whole theological position is flawed.

For a start God owns all the money in the world, for the whole world is God's and everything in it. Humans are just stewards of what God owns. To some he entrusts X, to others Y. See Matthew 25:14-30. It is not having money that is the issue, but what we do with God's money. Do we use it profitably, or do we waste it on expensive toys, women, exotic holidays etc.

If you're going to accuse me of loving money, you going to have to show that I misused what God has entrusted to me. I've never paid for an exotic holiday, I don't wine and dine, my wife doesn't have expensive tastes, I don't have a flashy car or smart phone or TV, and I really am not too sure what your accusing me of. If I buy and sell goods as a hobby, I see it as something of a business. Sometimes I make money from it, some timesI don't. What's it got to do with you?

Mark 12:41-44 - Jesus sat down near the collection box in the Temple and watched as the crowds dropped in their money. Many rich people put in large amounts. 42Then a poor widow came and dropped in two small coins.j

43Jesus called his disciples to him and said, ?I tell you the truth, this poor widow has given more than all the others who are making contributions. 44For they gave a tiny part of their surplus, but she, poor as she is, has given everything she had to live on.?

Luke 21:1-4 - While Jesus was in the Temple, he watched the rich people dropping their gifts in the collection box. 2Then a poor widow came by and dropped in two small coins.a

3?I tell you the truth,? Jesus said, ?this poor widow has given more than all the rest of them. 4For they have given a tiny part of their surplus, but she, poor as she is, has given everything she has.?

You are saying there is no one in need in all of England? Sounds like more desperate excuses to hang on to your money....
I'm not saying that. I'm saying your words are politically motivated. We have a political system which takes care of the poor. I've paid my taxes. They go to the poor. The country we live in is immeasurably wealthier than ancient Israel.

That doesn't mean to say that people aren't in debt. Our society is based on putting people into debt and keeping them in debt. That is where the evil is, and curiously a great deal of that is due to unregulated immigration that the poor keep on voting for. They vote for their own poverty. The more immigration the more competition for housing, the more it costs, the more debt, and the poorer the poor are, because they have no hope of owning their own home and must spend their lives paying money to the rentier class, which I am not.

I don't like the society I live in.  I don't approve of the way it works. But if you're looking to target the rich, you can start with those who own more than one house, of which there are many. I don't happen to fall into that category.

At every stage you seem to be advocating some communist distribution is incumbent on Christians? No. That is exactly what the gospel doesn't advocate. What is advocates is good stewardship. A person who just gives his money away for it to be frittered away is not being a good steward for he has no return. It's all about the return you make.

Moreover you have ignored the matter that the only worthy beneficiaries of largesse in the New Testament are  bible believing Christians. No largesse to pagans from Christians is required. Christian should be using their money to promote the gospel. The pagan poor are for politicians to take care of.

The gospel isn't a basis for communism, which is a non-biblical false religion. Even the apostles allowed that some believers may be rich (1 Timothy 6:17-21). Not that I am rich compared to others, although that doesn't mean to say that I live in social security housing, as I am university educated (2 honours degrees and a Masters degree and a post graduate diploma and an apprenticeship also) and so I am entitled to live in a house that befits me, which is the same house I have been living in for the past 33 years. I don't have to live on a sink housing estate by any rule found in scripture. People who have moved to places where their neighbours don't like them or are of a different class only create endless trouble for themselves. To have pacific neighbours is very important when it comes to housing.

Jesus did not specify this. Please show me a scripture where Jesus says not to help Gentiles with your money. Let's take a look at how Jesus treated Gentiles. Even though he calls this Gentile woman a 'dog', he still helps her:

Matthew 15:21-28 - Then Jesus left Galilee and went north to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22A Gentile woman who lived there came to him, pleading, ?Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! For my daughter is possessed by a demon that torments her severely.?

23But Jesus gave her no reply, not even a word. Then his disciples urged him to send her away. ?Tell her to go away,? they said. ?She is bothering us with all her begging.?

24Then Jesus said to the woman, ?I was sent only to help God?s lost sheep?the people of Israel.?

25But she came and worshiped him, pleading again, ?Lord, help me!?

26Jesus responded, ?It isn?t right to take food from the children and throw it to the dogs.?

27She replied, ?That?s true, Lord, but even dogs are allowed to eat the scraps that fall beneath their masters? table.?

28?Dear woman,? Jesus said to her, ?your faith is great. Your request is granted.? And her daughter was instantly healed

Of course he did!
1) Jesus helped the Centurion who was a Gentile,
2) He also helped the Gentile woman in the story mentioned above.
3) Jesus also helped the Samaritans. In fact he stayed with them extra days and Samaritans are people whom the Jews considered idol worshippers!
Jesus helped those pagans willing to have faith in him, but he did not purposely associate with them.

The verse against helping the pagan poor is from Paul the apostle: 1Ti 5:9 "No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband,"

It's about stewardship. My limited assets ought to go to promote the gospel and to Christians before any pagans. When there are no poor Christians and the gospel is well provided for financially, I will then help the pagan "poor" although frankly even those on social security are rich by Jesus' day's standards.


You're making excuses again....

Again, I am not telling you what to do with anything. And it's not up to you what people do with the money you give them. Once you've given to them, you've done your part.

Yes. You have tried every conceivable angle to dispute the obviously biblical concept of giving up all and relying on God to provide. Your philosophy is based on making your life about seeking after money out of fear and a lack of faith.

Luke 14:33 - So you cannot become my disciple without giving up everything you own.
Let's contextualize this.

Immediately before he says this, he says, talking about the elect of Israel (don't ever forget this)

"Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee. But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just."

So he is accepting that his disciples will be in a position to "makest a dinner or supper" in their own home, where their house is big enough for their own family and others besides.

That doesn't sound to me like he is calling on his disciples to become beggars.

Forsaking everything means  to be willing to follow the call of God wherever it leads. That has always been understood. It is to say you accept that you are a but a steward of God's possessions. It certainly doesn't impose an obligation to sell everything one has, reduce oneself to servitude and become a beggar.

And it doesn't entitle you to call people "money lovers," for that kind of talk comes within the ambit of Mat 5:22 "and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

For that is what you've inferred I am "a fool." You're not preaching the gospel, you're preaching wacko communism, trying to overthrow the world order, even promoting a cult on just one verse that the apostles clearly didn't treat as literal, and why should they. The command of Jesus was a command to follow him, and not one's own interests.

As we know, every cult starts with the demand of the cult leader to give up all. And I don't whether you belong to a cult. Communism is a cult. There are many political cults based on pseudo religion. There is absolutely no benefit in having "no money". To be entrapped by loan sharks, Court judgements, Councils harrassing you for Council Tax, etc, is nothing but a grevious evil.

People who become trapped by a cult destroy their entire lives.

I have already showed you more than enough scriptures but the love of money has blinded you.
It's not about some charity, it's about giving up all and trusting God for provision.
Absolutely not about giving all one's money away to scrounge off others' wealth. Jesus could do that because people wanted to hear what he had to say and he could work miracles. If you're some big evangelist, or some miracle worker, who can attract crowds of people willing to hear you, clearly you can afford to give up secular work. But if you're just an average Jo, I think not.


You yourself quoted Matthew 23:3 - So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

So why are you not following your own advise? You are annulling scripture once again.
What I have preached is that one must obey one's calling. Actually I always felt my calling until now was to become learned in the scriptures, so that I could teach them properly and not be at the mercy of every charlatan preacher or teacher or church whose doctrines are corrupt. For I wasn't converted until I was 19 and I knew nothing of the bible.

What qualifies you to make this judgment regarding who should preach? Your problem is as soon as you hear 'give up all' you think of 'beggar, poor, destitute' - where is your faith, man? Therefore, you simply cannot fathom how this statement can make any sense. Which one of the disciples do you read about having this kind of outcome? You worship a small god - not the creator of heaven and earth.
Not so. I think you're problem is that you cannot see that not everyone is called to do what you do and I don't know what you do. If you're one of these people with strong church connections, in the "in crowd,"  as it were, where people are willing to credit you and pay for your living, and you've got a lot of Kudos, fair enough.

But nothing wrong with working, yet you have condemned those who do. I find that sinful.

Your sums don't add up. As Paul said, you've got to work for your living. Whatever it is, you've got to work. And you don't seem to grasp his point, that you've got to work. Jesus didn't call people to live in Jonestown hanging around doing nothing, or loafing on street corners handing out leaflets (although as an occasional activity it's OK).


You've since edited your comment - and frankly it's becoming a waste of time speaking with you.

I have been holding a dialogue with you for the past 2 weeks - stop twisting the truth.

John 8:43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil,(BC) and you want to carry out your father?s desires.(BD) He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.(BE) 45 Yet because I tell the truth,(BF) you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don?t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says.(BG) The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.?

There's nothing political about racism. I have no political agenda when condemning racism. The bible does not condone racism and that is my position. It says in James, that Christians should not be showing any sort of favoritism - as it is a sin. If you show favoritism as a Christian, you are considered a law breaker just as an adulterer or murderer.
You've been insulting me on this thread for the last two weeks. It's not good to call people money lovers just because they work for a living. It really isn't. It's no function of a Christian to do that. You need to find another way to express yourself.

Racism is 99% political these days. I don't get involved in political arguments and I am not going to get involved in that here. Frankly not interested in anyone who talks politics to me.


The following scriptures actually address 'giving up all' and racism at the same time:

James 2:5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you
belong?

8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, ?Love your neighbor as yourself,?you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11 For he who said, ?You shall not commit adultery,?also said, ?You shall not murder.? If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
Don't worry. I've not dragged any black people to court, nor exploited them, nor sinned against any of them.


Offline Amos Ministries

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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2021, 06:08:21 PM »
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You're just not making any sense. Your whole theological position is flawed.

You're not understanding that we are not giving up all because God needs our money. Rather, we are putting our faith in God instead of our money.

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For a start God owns all the money in the world, for the whole world is God's and everything in it. Humans are just stewards of what God owns. To some he entrusts X, to others Y. See Matthew 25:14-30. It is not having money that is the issue, but what we do with God's money. Do we use it profitably, or do we waste it on expensive toys, women, exotic holidays etc.

Where exactly does the Bible say this, since all the scriptures I have shown you explain that we have to give up our money and possessions? Once again, you re adding to the bible.

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If you're going to accuse me of loving money, you going to have to show that I misused what God has entrusted to me. I've never paid for an exotic holiday, I don't wine and dine, my wife doesn't have expensive tastes, I don't have a flashy car or smart phone or TV, and I really am not too sure what your accusing me of. If I buy and sell goods as a hobby, I see it as something of a business. Sometimes I make money from it, some timesI don't. What's it got to do with you?

I'm only telling you what the Bible says which is you have to give up your money and possessions in order to truly follow Jesus, since this is what he did. When Jesus was in the wilderness, it was Satan who offered him wealth, power and riches and Jesus resisted. IN order not to have the love of money, we must give it up or else, our love for God is just lip service.

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I'm not saying that. I'm saying your words are politically motivated. We have a political system which takes care of the poor. I've paid my taxes. They go to the poor. The country we live in is immeasurably wealthier than ancient Israel.

Are you stating there are absolutely no homeless people in England?

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At every stage you seem to be advocating some communist distribution is incumbent on Christians? No. That is exactly what the gospel doesn't advocate. What is advocates is good stewardship. A person who just gives his money away for it to be frittered away is not being a good steward for he has no return. It's all about the return you make.

These are your opinions but they are not rooted in scriptural teachings of Jesus. If we are supposed to be good stewards of what God has given, then Jesus and the disciples failed miserably...which I do not believe for a second.

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Moreover you have ignored the matter that the only worthy beneficiaries of largesse in the New Testament are  bible believing Christians. No largesse to pagans from Christians is required. Christian should be using their money to promote the gospel. The pagan poor are for politicians to take care of.

Jesus said to give to all who ask - not just a chosen few. Once again you are adding exceptions to the Bible which are unbiblical.

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The gospel isn't a basis for communism, which is a non-biblical false religion. Even the apostles allowed that some believers may be rich (1 Timothy 6:17-21).

No, the Apostles are stating that those with unrighteous wealth should give it away to gain friends in order to speak the Gospel to, until your money is gone. But remember, God will add more to us and we must keep giving.

Luke 16:9 - I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

1 Timothy 6:17-21 - Instruct those who are rich in this present world not to be conceited or to fix their hope on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly supplies us with all things to enjoy. 18Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, 19storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is life indeed. 20O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called ?knowledge?? 21which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith. Grace be with you.

This scripture is speaking about our very argument - that the rich need to give away their worldly wealth and not hang on to it. Worldly wealth includes houses, money, etc.

Paul is warning Timothy not to listen to empty chatter which is what you are speaking and opposing arguments. You have swerved away from the faith through your professions. You are reading this scripture to say that they can some how give away their money just enough to also keep it. You cannot serve both God and money.

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Not that I am rich compared to others, although that doesn't mean to say that I live in social security housing, as I am university educated (2 honours degrees and a Masters degree and a post graduate diploma and an apprenticeship also) and so I am entitled to live in a house that befits me, which is the same house I have been living in for the past 33 years. I don't have to live on a sink housing estate by any rule found in scripture.

I do not see your position in the Bible, that education is an exception to giving up all. Paul was educated; he considered himself the best of the best - yet he counts it all as garbage. He gave up everything. Luke was also a physician.

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People who have moved to places where their neighbours don't like them or are of a different class only create endless trouble for themselves.

You base your understanding of the scriptures on worldly emotions and not on biblical facts. This is why I say you lack faith.

Mark 8:33 - But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. ?Get behind me, Satan!? he said. ?You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.?

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Jesus helped those pagans willing to have faith in him, but he did not purposely associate with them.

You were originally stating that we are not to give money or assist Pagans. I'm beginning to think you just like to argue for the sake of it....

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The verse against helping the pagan poor is from Paul the apostle: 1Ti 5:9 "No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband,"

Where does this state 'pagan'?

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It's about stewardship. My limited assets ought to go to promote the gospel and to Christians before any pagans. When there are no poor Christians and the gospel is well provided for financially, I will then help the pagan "poor" although frankly even those on social security are rich by Jesus' day's standards.

You promote the gospel to pagan as well as Christians. Either way, you are to give them your possessions. 'Give to all who ask' did not say Christians only or Christians first.

You are not supposed to be a steward, you are supposed to be a slave. Slaves have nothing - they are indebted to their masters and rely on them for everything. They don't have a side hustle that provides for them and then serve their Masters when they can.

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That doesn't sound to me like he is calling on his disciples to become beggars.

How many times do I have to say that once you give up all, GOD WILL ADD UNTO YOU! For a man with so many degrees, you sure can't comprehend a basic statement; GIVE UP ALL AND GOD WILL PROVIDE. Where in this statement do you see, give up all and become a beggar? You are thinking according to your flesh and so you cannot see with your spiritual eyes because you have become blinded by the worries of this world. It has choked out the message of salvation in your life. All you can think about is how to feed your stomach and keep your house. You sound like the man who sat back and was proud of all that he had accumulated and then Jesus says "FOOL - THIS NIGHT, YOUR SOUL WILL BE REQUIRED OF YOU!".

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Forsaking everything means  to be willing to follow the call of God wherever it leads. That has always been understood. It is to say you accept that you are a but a steward of God's possessions. It certainly doesn't impose an obligation to sell everything one has, reduce oneself to servitude and become a beggar.

You are omitting the fact that God will provide. You must not add or remove from the Bible.

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And it doesn't entitle you to call people "money lovers," for that kind of talk comes within the ambit of Mat 5:22 "and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

You are denying the words of Jesus. Therefore you are not a brother, you are a neighbor.

Leviticus 19:17 - ?You shall not hate your fellow countryman in your heart; you may certainly rebuke your neighbor, but you are not to incur sin because of him.

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For that is what you've inferred I am "a fool." You're not preaching the gospel, you're preaching wacko communism, trying to overthrow the world order, even promoting a cult on just one verse that the apostles clearly didn't treat as literal, and why should they. The command of Jesus was a command to follow him, and not one's own interests.

All the disciples gave up all - so of course they took Jesus' words literally! I have shown you the scriptures - read it back as I'm not showing you again, you're wasting my time.

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As we know, every cult starts with the demand of the cult leader to give up all. And I don't whether you belong to a cult. Communism is a cult. There are many political cults based on pseudo religion. There is absolutely no benefit in having "no money". To be entrapped by loan sharks, Court judgements, Councils harrassing you for Council Tax, etc, is nothing but a grevious evil.

You are the one who belongs to a cult - promoting your love of money. You are speaking contrary to Jesus. It's not like I benefit anything from preaching this message - I am not telling anyone to give up all and give it to me!

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Absolutely not about giving all one's money away to scrounge off others' wealth.

Once again, you omit the part that God will provide - LACK OF FAITH.

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Jesus could do that because people wanted to hear what he had to say and he could work miracles. If you're some big evangelist, or some miracle worker, who can attract crowds of people willing to hear you, clearly you can afford to give up secular work.

John the Baptist had nothing and performed no miracles, yet God provided for him.

Matthew 3:4 - John?s clothes were made of camel?s hair, and he had a leather belt around his waist. His food was locusts and wild honey.

John 10:4 - After he has gathered his own flock, he walks ahead of them, and they follow him because they know his voice.

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What I have preached is that one must obey one's calling. Actually I always felt my calling until now was to become learned in the scriptures, so that I could teach them properly and not be at the mercy of every charlatan preacher or teacher or church whose doctrines are corrupt. For I wasn't converted until I was 19 and I knew nothing of the bible.

You are following your own interpretations and not Jesus' interpretation. You are adding exceptions to the words of Jesus due to your lack of faith.

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Not so. I think you're problem is that you cannot see that not everyone is called to do what you do and I don't know what you do.
We are ALL called to give up our possessions and follow Jesus, or else we are not his disciples/followers.

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If you're one of these people with strong church connections, in the "in crowd,"  as it were, where people are willing to credit you and pay for your living, and you've got a lot of Kudos, fair enough.
No I have never taken any money from anyone. My website has no donation page either - you can check.

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Your sums don't add up. As Paul said, you've got to work for your living. Whatever it is, you've got to work. And you don't seem to grasp his point, that you've got to work. Jesus didn't call people to live in Jonestown hanging around doing nothing, or loafing on street corners handing out leaflets (although as an occasional activity it's OK).

What you're saying about Paul is false. If this is what Paul said, then he is calling all the disciples, Apostles and 1st Century church worse than unbelievers! So obviously, it is YOU who is misinterpreting these scriptures.

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Don't worry. I've not dragged any black people to court, nor exploited them, nor sinned against any of them.

Good for you!!




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