Author Topic: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping  (Read 856 times)

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Offline Amos Ministries

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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2021, 06:18:02 PM »

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True, but it is also impossible to please God unless you understand the context to a message.
This is done through faith and not logic.

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Jesus is not here
Jesus may not be here, but the Holy Spirit is here and he will teach us all things!

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2Th 3:8 "nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you."

Paul worked for a time until the church of Macedonia supported him and the scriptures state that Paul went into ministry full time.

1 Corinthians 11:7-9 - Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge? 8I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you. 9And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so.

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Coins were mostly in bronze in those days, except the higher denominations.

I think Peter was figuratively speaking here of money. I've never heard of anyone referring to money as bronze. Lol.

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That is, nothing as contrasted with others. Obviously he had his personal possessions.

1 Timothy 6:7-10 - For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Philippians 4:10-16 -  I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. 11 I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. 12 I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. 13 I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

14 Yet it was good of you to share in my troubles. 15 Moreover, as you Philippians know, in the early days of your acquaintance with the gospel, when I set out from Macedonia, not one church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving, except you only; 16 for even when I was in Thessalonica, you sent me aid more than once when I was in need.

I am saying that Paul gave up everything and then God provided for his needs as per Luke 12:22-34 - Then Jesus said to his disciples: ?Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life[a]? 26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?

27 ?Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you?you of little faith! 29 And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

32 ?Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Anytime someone hears of this requirement to give up all, they straight away imagine having to live in a cardboard box and beg. What a lot of people fail to understand is that God will provide once you give up all. Jesus is trying to explain this through the examples of the birds and the lilies. And rightfully so, he ends by saying "do not be afraid" because forfeiting your possessions is naturally a scary thought. But Jesus assures us that our Father in heaven is faithful.

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Yet he found places and was supported by many followers.

As per Luke 12:22-34 above, God will provide for your needs.

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He was talking to his personal followers. Please do not extend the context outside of Christ's ministry on earth, which was a special case. And they didn't give up their houses.

Yes it does extend to us.

Acts 2:45 - "They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need."

Acts 4:34 - that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 5 and put it at the apostles? feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

Acts 11:26 - and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

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Not necessarily. Just speculation on your part.

When you compare with the other disciples, then it must be, as Jesus did not have double standards.

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I think you have to have a sense of reality, otherwise reality will catch up with you.

This is code word for 'lack of faith'. You must believe the words of Jesus.

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I made no such assumption. I just said the poor includes many pagans, who are often poor through their own deliberate fault.

Same with the rich - most are pagans! Jesus said blessed are the poor.

James 2:6-7 - But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who oppress you and drag you into court? 7Are they not the ones who blaspheme the noble name by which you have been called?

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That presumes you can find a source of revenue. Paul "robbed" other churches. Not everyone has that luxury.

No, Paul states God provided, this time through the church of Macedonia.

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It was a debt free society, unlike ours. Obviously if someone has a large estate, they can do the same.

Rubbish - they had debtor's prison. There was no luxury of bankruptcy protection, it was worse back then.

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Of course he was referring to a literal sword. It's just that they didn't need it to defend Jesus.

What would be the point of carrying around a weapon if you don't use it? It does not make any mention of the disciples/apostles carrying swords after Jesus' ascension into heaven. Jesus did not carry a sword either. If this was referring to a literal sword, why did Jesus not praise the disciples when they found 2 swords? He rebuked them because they were missing the point - just as you are.

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Well if you're so rich that you can label others as poor, fine. It's all a question of how rich you are. If you're on the breadline, there's not much you can do. Don't forget about the hundreds of thousands shut up in horrible old peoples homes because they didn't save enough money for retirement.

This is my point. God is calling us to give up our possessions and suffer in order to enter the kingdom of heaven and enjoy eternal life.

Luke 16:9-31 -  I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

10 ?Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. 11 So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? 12 And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else?s property, who will give you property of your own?

13 ?No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.?

14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15 He said to them, ?You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God?s sight.

Additional Teachings
16 ?The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it. 17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

18 ?Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 ?There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man?s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 ?The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham?s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ?Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.?

25 ?But Abraham replied, ?Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.?

27 ?He answered, ?Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.?

29 ?Abraham replied, ?They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.?

30 ??No, father Abraham,? he said, ?but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.?

31 ?He said to him, ?If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.??

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I fear you are somewhat deceived. The Catholics had begging orders, when the land was overrun with beggars who never did anything useful and were often immoral. There is nothing wrong with work, and nothing wrong with using wages profitably and nothing wrong in owning your own home.

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If you cannot or will not see a distinction between the period of Christ's ministry and what came after it, I think we will have to disagree.
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Yes, then we must disagree. You lack faith and are trying to argue and make exceptions.

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We live in pagan societies and not in the land of Israel. We live in the era of antichrist, and churches that are given over to heresy. I find it remarkable you are so willing to recommend sponging off others.

All the disciples went to pagan societies - what are you talking about?



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Offline eik

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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2021, 07:45:52 PM »
This is done through faith and not logic.
Jesus may not be here, but the Holy Spirit is here and he will teach us all things!

Paul worked for a time until the church of Macedonia supported him and the scriptures state that Paul went into ministry full time.

1 Corinthians 11:7-9 - Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge? 8I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you. 9And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so.

I think Peter was figuratively speaking here of money. I've never heard of anyone referring to money as bronze. Lol.

1 Timothy 6:7-10 - For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9 Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

Philippians 4:10-16 -  I rejoiced greatly in the Lord that at last you renewed your concern for me. Indeed, you were concerned, but you had no opportunity to show it. 11 I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. 12 I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. 13 I can do all this through him who gives me strength.

14 Yet it was good of you to share in my troubles. 15 Moreover, as you Philippians know, in the early days of your acquaintance with the gospel, when I set out from Macedonia, not one church shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving, except you only; 16 for even when I was in Thessalonica, you sent me aid more than once when I was in need.

I am saying that Paul gave up everything and then God provided for his needs as per Luke 12:22-34 - Then Jesus said to his disciples: ?Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life[a]? 26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?

27 ?Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you?you of little faith! 29 And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

32 ?Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Anytime someone hears of this requirement to give up all, they straight away imagine having to live in a cardboard box and beg. What a lot of people fail to understand is that God will provide once you give up all. Jesus is trying to explain this through the examples of the birds and the lilies. And rightfully so, he ends by saying "do not be afraid" because forfeiting your possessions is naturally a scary thought. But Jesus assures us that our Father in heaven is faithful.

As per Luke 12:22-34 above, God will provide for your needs.

Yes it does extend to us.

Acts 2:45 - "They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need."

Acts 4:34 - that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 5 and put it at the apostles? feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.

Acts 11:26 - and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

When you compare with the other disciples, then it must be, as Jesus did not have double standards.

This is code word for 'lack of faith'. You must believe the words of Jesus.

Same with the rich - most are pagans! Jesus said blessed are the poor.

James 2:6-7 - But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who oppress you and drag you into court? 7Are they not the ones who blaspheme the noble name by which you have been called?

No, Paul states God provided, this time through the church of Macedonia.

Rubbish - they had debtor's prison. There was no luxury of bankruptcy protection, it was worse back then.

What would be the point of carrying around a weapon if you don't use it? It does not make any mention of the disciples/apostles carrying swords after Jesus' ascension into heaven. Jesus did not carry a sword either. If this was referring to a literal sword, why did Jesus not praise the disciples when they found 2 swords? He rebuked them because they were missing the point - just as you are.

This is my point. God is calling us to give up our possessions and suffer in order to enter the kingdom of heaven and enjoy eternal life.

Luke 16:9-31 -  I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

10 ?Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. 11 So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? 12 And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else?s property, who will give you property of your own?

13 ?No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.?

14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15 He said to them, ?You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God?s sight.

Additional Teachings
16 ?The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it. 17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

18 ?Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 ?There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man?s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 ?The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham?s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ?Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.?

25 ?But Abraham replied, ?Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.?

27 ?He answered, ?Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.?

29 ?Abraham replied, ?They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.?

30 ??No, father Abraham,? he said, ?but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.?

31 ?He said to him, ?If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.??
.

Yes, then we must disagree. You lack faith and are trying to argue and make exceptions.

All the disciples went to pagan societies - what are you talking about?
The problem I have is that you don't seem to live in the real world. "God will provide" doesn't answer the issue that you raise, which is how any Christian society will provide for itself if as you suggest, everyone merely waits for "God to provide." It will be reduced to serfdom and servitude in no time. The buildings will crumble to dust, the roads will not be mended, the crops not sown and the harvests not reaped. And what sort of example are you setting anyway?

You haven't addressed my point that so many ministers today are indebted to their congregations that they have to conform to what they want otherwise they will be kicked out of their livings. I've had in happen in my experience: just disagree with the church elders and you will be out in no time.

Even in my own experience a pastor of a former church I went to was effectively kicked out of his own church when he suggested the congregation give up their TVs, and ended up with a very small church.

It's one thing  to go on a specific missionary journey with a plan of campaign, knowing that you can rely on others to provide for your needs, or believing there is enough good will for them to do so.

But we can't all be on missionary journeys all of the time.

At least if you have a skilled secular trade, you can then trust God to provide. Trusting God to provide doesn't mean you don't have to do secular work. Nowhere does scripture teach such a thing.

Paul says if you don't provide for your family you're worse than an unbeliever. 1 Tim 5:8. Neither is sponging off social security a good witness, nor leaving your family to do so.






Offline Amos Ministries

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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2021, 10:17:04 PM »
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The problem I have is that you don't seem to live in the real world. "God will provide" doesn't answer the issue that you raise, which is how any Christian society will provide for itself if as you suggest, everyone merely waits for "God to provide." It will be reduced to serfdom and servitude in no time. The buildings will crumble to dust, the roads will not be mended, the crops not sown and the harvests not reaped. And what sort of example are you setting anyway?

Paul state what faith is in:

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

Meaning we must believe what God has promised without seeing any evidence. What I'm saying is we must believe God will provide even though we don't see how he will do it, if we give up all.

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The buildings will crumble to dust, the roads will not be mended, the crops not sown and the harvests not reaped. And what sort of example are you setting anyway?

You are completely lacking faith that God will provide by stating if we wait for God to provide, everything will crumble.

Please understand that only a remnant few will actually obey this command to give up all. So don't worry about the rest of society. The world as we know it will not come to end because Christians have chosen to give up all. There's enough evil and greed in the world to keep things going just fine!
Christian societies or countries are not true followers of Christ. Not even everyone in the church are true followers.

The world will go on exactly how it has been since the time of Jesus, where most are spending their existence on seeking after money and worrying about what they are going to eat, drink and wear!

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You haven't addressed my point that so many ministers today are indebted to their congregations that they have to conform to what they want otherwise they will be kicked out of their livings. I've had in happen in my experience: just disagree with the church elders and you will be out in no time.

Ministers most of all should understand that God will provide and not to be dependant on his congregation. Preaching the gospel is about making people repentant and if ministers are too afraid to offend people, then they become ear-ticklers.

2 Corinthians 7:10 - Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

2 Timothy 4:3 - For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

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Even in my own experience a pastor of a former church I went to was effectively kicked out of his own church when he suggested the congregation give up their TVs, and ended up with a very small church.

Matthew 10:22 - You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Proverbs 29:27 - The righteous detest the dishonest; the wicked detest the upright.

Matthew 24:9 - ?Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.

Mark 13:13 - And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

John 15:18-19 - ?If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

Luke 6:22-24 - Blessed are you when people hate you,
    when they exclude you and insult you
    and reject your name as evil,
        because of the Son of Man.

23 ?Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets.

24 ?But woe to you who are rich,
    for you have already received your comfort.


Acts 7:52 - Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered,

2 Chronicles 36:16 - But they mocked God?s messengers, despised his words and scoffed at his prophets until the wrath of the Lord was aroused against his people and there was no remedy.

Acts 5:41 -  Then they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name.

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It's one thing  to go on a specific missionary journey with a plan of campaign, knowing that you can rely on others to provide for your needs, or believing there is enough good will for them to do so.

This is believing in man and shows no faith in God's ability to provide.

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At least if you have a skilled secular trade, you can then trust God to provide. Trusting God to provide doesn't mean you don't have to do secular work. Nowhere does scripture teach such a thing.

The Great Commission Mark 16:15 - He said to them, ?Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

In no way does the scriptures say that if you give up your possessions, God will not provide for you. Out of what He provides, you must look after your family along with anyone else who asks from you.

Luke 14:33 - In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

Matthew 28:19 - Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Mark 13:10 - And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.

Matthew 16:24 - Then Jesus told his disciples, ?If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Luke 6:30 - Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.

Matthew 5:39 - But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Matthew 5:42 - Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

1 John 2:6 - whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Peter had a wife and mother in law that he looked after, yet he said:

Matthew 19:27 - Then Peter said to him, ?We?ve given up everything to follow you. What will we get??

Then according to your interpretation of this scripture, Peter is worse than an unbeliever!











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Offline eik

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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2021, 11:19:23 AM »
Paul state what faith is in:

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

Meaning we must believe what God has promised without seeing any evidence. What I'm saying is we must believe God will provide even though we don't see how he will do it, if we give up all.

You are completely lacking faith that God will provide by stating if we wait for God to provide, everything will crumble.
I don't take your point of view.

First of all you have condemned nearly everyone who works for their living as a "money lover." That finds no scriptural support. You have condemned them as lacking faith, and even damned. Anyone would say of you that you belonged to a cult, or may be you're just not English? Even in Christian circles if you're not willing to work, you lose credibility very fast. There are many people actively involved in working in the Christian life, combining Christian activity with professional work. That is ideally what you strive for, if that is where your interests lie. There are very few "beggars" so to speak because they don't get a good press and they don't make many converts, unless they try the tithing trick, i.e. "I've spoken the word of God to you so you now owe me 10% of your income." Yet what sort of convert does that make?

Let's look at the history of those who simply expected "God to provide" without having to do work in the UK.

From Wiki:
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The Ordinance of Labourers 1349 was the first major vagrancy law in England and Wales. The ordinance sought to increase the available workforce following the Black Death in England by making idleness (unemployment) an offence. A vagrant was a person who could work but chose not to, and having no fixed abode or lawful occupation, begged. Vagrancy was punishable by human branding or whipping. Vagrants were distinguished from the impotent poor, who were unable to support themselves because of advanced age or sickness.

In the Vagabonds Act 1530, Henry VIII decreed that "beggars who are old and incapable of working receive a beggar's licence. On the other hand, [there should be] whipping and imprisonment for sturdy vagabonds. They are to be tied to the cart-tail and whipped until the blood streams from their bodies, then they are to swear on oath to go back to their birthplace or to serve where they have lived the last three years and to 'put themselves to labour'. For the second arrest for vagabondage the whipping is to be repeated and half the ear sliced off; but for the third relapse the offender is to be executed as a hardened criminal and enemy of the common weal."

In the Vagabonds Act 1547, Edward VI ordained that "if anyone refuses to work, he shall be condemned as a slave to the person who has denounced him as an idler. The master has the right to force him to do any work, no matter how vile, with whip and chains. If the slave is absent for a fortnight, he is condemned to slavery for life and is to be branded on forehead or back with the letter S; if he runs away three times, he is to be executed as a felon...If it happens that a vagabond has been idling about for three days, he is to be taken to his birthplace, branded with a red hot iron with the letter V on his breast, and set to work, in chains, on the roads or at some other labour...Every master may put an iron ring round the neck, arms or legs of his slave, by which to know him more easily."

In England, the Vagabonds Act 1572 passed under Elizabeth I, defined a rogue as a person who had no land, no master, and no legitimate trade or source of income; it included rogues in the class of vagrants or vagabonds. If a person were apprehended as a rogue, he would be stripped to the waist, whipped until bleeding, and a hole, about the compass of an inch about, would be burned through the cartilage of his right ear with a hot iron.[13] A rogue who was charged with a second offence, unless taken in by someone who would give him work for one year, could face execution as a felony. A rogue charged with a third offence would only escape death if someone hired him for two years.

The Vagabonds Act of 1572 decreed that "unlicensed beggars above fourteen years of age are to be severely flogged and branded on the left ear unless someone will take them into service for two years; in case of a repetition of the offence, if they are over eighteen, they are to be executed, unless someone will take them into service for two years; but for the third offence they are to be executed without mercy as felons." The same act laid the legal groundwork for the enforced exile (transportation) of "obdurate idlers" to "such parts beyond the seas as shall be [?] assigned by the Privy Council".[14] At the time, this meant exile for a fixed term to the Virginia Company's plantations in America. Those who returned unlawfully from their place of exile faced death by hanging.

The Vagabonds Act 1597 banished and transplanted "incorrigible and dangerous rogues" overseas.

In late-eighteenth-century Middlesex, those suspected of vagrancy could be detained by the constable or watchman and brought before a magistrate who had the legal right to interview them to determine their status.[16] If declared vagrant, they were to be arrested, whipped, and physically expelled from the county by a vagrant contractor, whose job it was to take them to the edge of the county and pass them to the contractor for the next county on the journey.[16] This process would continue until the person reached his or her place of legal settlement, which was often but not always their place of birth.

Based on the findings and recommendations from the 1821 House of Commons Select on Vagrancy,[19] a new Act of Parliament was introduced, 'An Act for the Punishment of Idle and Disorderly Persons, and Rogues and Vagabonds, in that Part of Great Britain called England', commonly known as the Vagrancy Act 1824.[20] The Vagrancy Act 1824 consolidated the previous vagrancy laws and addressed many of the frauds and abuses identified during the select committee hearings. Much reformed since 1824, some of the offences included in it are still enforceable.

Please understand that only a remnant few will actually obey this command to give up all. So don't worry about the rest of society.
The identification of the remnant with those who don't do secular work finds no support from the lips of Jesus:

Matt 24:40,41 "Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left."

The world as we know it will not come to end because Christians have chosen to give up all. There's enough evil and greed in the world to keep things going just fine!
Christian societies or countries are not true followers of Christ. Not even everyone in the church are true followers.
I concur that we can rely on pagans to keep the world ticking over, and then all Christians will become their slaves, as if that was a good thing? Yet that's not to answer the question of how a Christian society can function without work.

Again what you say finds no scriptual support. Nowhere is the remnant identified with those who give up work. The command to give up all is not a command to give up work unless you're a professional miracle worker or evangelist and can live on the donations, or like Simon Magus, a conjurer in which case you're damned.

For not everyone is an evangelist. Not everyone is an apostle. Some have humble spirtual gifts that no-one will pay for. I've not come across anyone paying a prophet to exercise the gift of prophecy. What about women? Are they to do no work?

Read Proverbs. There are many injunctions against idleness and gossipers.


The world will go on exactly how it has been since the time of Jesus, where most are spending their existence on seeking after money and worrying about what they are going to eat, drink and wear!

Ministers most of all should understand that God will provide and not to be dependant on his congregation. Preaching the gospel is about making people repentant and if ministers are too afraid to offend people, then they become ear-ticklers.
Exactly so. That's what so many of them are. In fact whole denominations today are given over to political correctness because only in that lies a guranteed source of income for those who will not work for their living.

2 Corinthians 7:10 - Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

2 Timothy 4:3 - For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Matthew 10:22 - You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Proverbs 29:27 - The righteous detest the dishonest; the wicked detest the upright.

Matthew 24:9 - ?Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake.

Mark 13:13 - And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

John 15:18-19 - ?If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

Luke 6:22-24 - Blessed are you when people hate you,
    when they exclude you and insult you
    and reject your name as evil,
        because of the Son of Man.

23 ?Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their ancestors treated the prophets.

24 ?But woe to you who are rich,
    for you have already received your comfort.


Acts 7:52 - Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered,

2 Chronicles 36:16 - But they mocked God?s messengers, despised his words and scoffed at his prophets until the wrath of the Lord was aroused against his people and there was no remedy.

Acts 5:41 -  Then they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name.
There is nothing in any of this that commands Christians not to work. To identify the rich with those who work is preposterous. The world's wealth is owned by a tiny fraction of those who work for their living.

This is believing in man and shows no faith in God's ability to provide.
It's taking pragmatic steps to avoid vagrancy, which earns no respect and will make no converts. Thus Paul took along money from other churches or earned by his own hands to avoid vagrancy. Christ was attended by many whom provided for him. Being funded from a church is all about having or starting a church movement. If you are in that sort of strong church that provides incomes to those who work for it, fine. Not every church does or can afford to. To suggest that all the early Christians gave up secular work is perverse. There is no evidence for it. The total of the saved is not limited to the apostles and like evangelists.

Yet many movements have become cults. It is an ever present danger of those demanding huge sacrifices from their members.  If you don't work the tendency to cultism is very real because you have to bind people to yourself, to serve your needs, and you foment psychological tricks on people to make them pay you or even work for you when they have no obligation to. Like in Mormonism and many other cults that have bound people to give over huge amounts of their wealth to those who will not work for a living, and whom preach dubious doctrines.

The Great Commission Mark 16:15 - He said to them, ?Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

In no way does the scriptures say that if you give up your possessions, God will not provide for you. Out of what He provides, you must look after your family along with anyone else who asks from you.
Give practical examples of how God provides for someone who gives all their money and possessions away and who will not work.


Luke 14:33 - In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

Matthew 28:19 - Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Mark 13:10 - And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.

Matthew 16:24 - Then Jesus told his disciples, ?If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

Luke 6:30 - Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.

Matthew 5:39 - But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Matthew 5:42 - Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.

1 John 2:6 - whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Peter had a wife and mother in law that he looked after, yet he said:

Matthew 19:27 - Then Peter said to him, ?We?ve given up everything to follow you. What will we get??

Then according to your interpretation of this scripture, Peter is worse than an unbeliever!
Peter still had his house, his fishing nets, his boat. He didn't give them up. He went back to fishing after the resurrection. Moreover, he may even have done that on occasions during Christ's ministry. We don't know. What did they do in the winter, when it was pouring with rain, as it has rained about 50% of the time in the last five months?

Offline Amos Ministries

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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2021, 08:55:03 PM »
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First of all you have condemned nearly everyone who works for their living as a "money lover." That finds no scriptural support.

None of the disciples or first century church worked. They preached the word of God and God provided.

Acts 2:45 - And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Acts 4:34 - that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales3 5and lay them at the apostles? feet for distribution to anyone as he had need.?

I'm saying anyone who wishes to be a disciple of Jesus (which means Christian) must give up their possessions and preach the gospel.

Luke 14:33 - In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

Mark 16:15 - He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Matthew 28:19-20 - Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.?

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You have condemned them as lacking faith, and even damned. Anyone would say of you that you belonged to a cult, or may be you're just not English?

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Even in Christian circles if you're not willing to work, you lose credibility very fast.

Of course they would say these things because they are lovers of money! So they are despising the teachings of Jesus as Jesus said:

Matthew 6:24-34 - ?No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

Do Not Worry

25?Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life e ?

28?And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you?you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, ?What shall we eat?? or ?What shall we drink?? or ?What shall we wear?? 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

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There are many people actively involved in working in the Christian life, combining Christian activity with professional work. That is ideally what you strive for, if that is where your interests lie.

This is not according to Jesus - it's a compromise.

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There are very few "beggars" so to speak because they don't get a good press and they don't make many converts, unless they try the tithing trick, i.e. "I've spoken the word of God to you so you now owe me 10% of your income." Yet what sort of convert does that make?

Your view of the Bible is 'worldly'.

James 4:4 - You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

Quote
The Ordinance of Labourers 1349 was the first major vagrancy law in England and Wales. The ordinance sought to increase the available workforce following the Black Death in England by making idleness (unemployment) an offence. A vagrant was a person who could work but chose not to, and having no fixed abode or lawful occupation, begged. Vagrancy was punishable by human branding or whipping. Vagrants were distinguished from the impotent poor, who were unable to support themselves because of advanced age or sickness.

In the Vagabonds Act 1530, Henry VIII decreed that "beggars who are old and incapable of working receive a beggar's licence. On the other hand, [there should be] whipping and imprisonment for sturdy vagabonds. They are to be tied to the cart-tail and whipped until the blood streams from their bodies, then they are to swear on oath to go back to their birthplace or to serve where they have lived the last three years and to 'put themselves to labour'. For the second arrest for vagabondage the whipping is to be repeated and half the ear sliced off; but for the third relapse the offender is to be executed as a hardened criminal and enemy of the common weal."

In the Vagabonds Act 1547, Edward VI ordained that "if anyone refuses to work, he shall be condemned as a slave to the person who has denounced him as an idler. The master has the right to force him to do any work, no matter how vile, with whip and chains. If the slave is absent for a fortnight, he is condemned to slavery for life and is to be branded on forehead or back with the letter S; if he runs away three times, he is to be executed as a felon...If it happens that a vagabond has been idling about for three days, he is to be taken to his birthplace, branded with a red hot iron with the letter V on his breast, and set to work, in chains, on the roads or at some other labour...Every master may put an iron ring round the neck, arms or legs of his slave, by which to know him more easily."

In England, the Vagabonds Act 1572 passed under Elizabeth I, defined a rogue as a person who had no land, no master, and no legitimate trade or source of income; it included rogues in the class of vagrants or vagabonds. If a person were apprehended as a rogue, he would be stripped to the waist, whipped until bleeding, and a hole, about the compass of an inch about, would be burned through the cartilage of his right ear with a hot iron.[13] A rogue who was charged with a second offence, unless taken in by someone who would give him work for one year, could face execution as a felony. A rogue charged with a third offence would only escape death if someone hired him for two years.

The Vagabonds Act of 1572 decreed that "unlicensed beggars above fourteen years of age are to be severely flogged and branded on the left ear unless someone will take them into service for two years; in case of a repetition of the offence, if they are over eighteen, they are to be executed, unless someone will take them into service for two years; but for the third offence they are to be executed without mercy as felons." The same act laid the legal groundwork for the enforced exile (transportation) of "obdurate idlers" to "such parts beyond the seas as shall be [?] assigned by the Privy Council".[14] At the time, this meant exile for a fixed term to the Virginia Company's plantations in America. Those who returned unlawfully from their place of exile faced death by hanging.

The Vagabonds Act 1597 banished and transplanted "incorrigible and dangerous rogues" overseas.

In late-eighteenth-century Middlesex, those suspected of vagrancy could be detained by the constable or watchman and brought before a magistrate who had the legal right to interview them to determine their status.[16] If declared vagrant, they were to be arrested, whipped, and physically expelled from the county by a vagrant contractor, whose job it was to take them to the edge of the county and pass them to the contractor for the next county on the journey.[16] This process would continue until the person reached his or her place of legal settlement, which was often but not always their place of birth.

Based on the findings and recommendations from the 1821 House of Commons Select on Vagrancy,[19] a new Act of Parliament was introduced, 'An Act for the Punishment of Idle and Disorderly Persons, and Rogues and Vagabonds, in that Part of Great Britain called England', commonly known as the Vagrancy Act 1824.[20] The Vagrancy Act 1824 consolidated the previous vagrancy laws and addressed many of the frauds and abuses identified during the select committee hearings. Much reformed since 1824, some of the offences included in it are still enforceable.

This is not having faith in Jesus' teachings, that if you put the kingdom of heaven first priority, God will provide for you. So sell your possessions and give it to the poor. We must not annul what Jesus has said.

Luke 6:46 - "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?

Matthew 7:21 - "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

James 1:22 - "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says."

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The identification of the remnant with those who don't do secular work finds no support from the lips of Jesus:

Matt 24:40,41 "Two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left."

This is irrelevant to this issue.

Matthew 7:14 - But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Matthew 22:14 - "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Mark 10:24 - The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!

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I concur that we can rely on pagans to keep the world ticking over, and then all Christians will become their slaves, as if that was a good thing? Yet that's not to answer the question of how a Christian society can function without work.

You lack faith in Jesus teachings when it comes to 'many being slaves'. Slaves is slaves to sin and money.

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Again what you say finds no scriptual support. Nowhere is the remnant identified with those who give up work. The command to give up all is not a command to give up work unless you're a professional miracle worker or evangelist and can live on the donations, or like Simon Magus, a conjurer in which case you're damned.

We are ALL meant to give up all and preach the gospel.

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For not everyone is an evangelist. Not everyone is an apostle. Some have humble spirtual gifts that no-one will pay for. I've not come across anyone paying a prophet to exercise the gift of prophecy. What about women? Are they to do no work?

I didn't say people will pay them - I said God will provide.

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Read Proverbs. There are many injunctions against idleness and gossipers.

This means not working in the World. I am speaking about doing the work of God. We must do one or the other.

Luke 2:49 - And He said to them, ?Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father?s business??

John 5:17 - But Jesus answered them, ?My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.?

We are going in circles here. I already stated that according to your interpretation, Peter was worse than an unbeliever along with the rest of the disciples.

Matthew 19:27 - Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"

1 Corinthians 9:5 - Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas?

As we can see, they all had families.

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Exactly so. That's what so many of them are. In fact whole denominations today are given over to political correctness because only in that lies a guranteed source of income for those who will not work for their living.

You are free to follow the false teachers then but I will follow the words of Jesus.

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There is nothing in any of this that commands Christians not to work. To identify the rich with those who work is preposterous. The world's wealth is owned by a tiny fraction of those who work for their living.

You are reading these scriptures without faith.

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It's taking pragmatic steps to avoid vagrancy, which earns no respect and will make no converts. Thus Paul took along money from other churches or earned by his own hands to avoid vagrancy.

Once again, we are going in circles. I have already showed you that God provides however, He wishes to do so such as in the mouth of a fish.

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Yet many movements have become cults. It is an ever present danger of those demanding huge sacrifices from their members.  If you don't work the tendency to cultism is very real because you have to bind people to yourself, to serve your needs, and you foment psychological tricks on people to make them pay you or even work for you when they have no obligation to

You are still looking for people to provide and not God. If God can provide for hundreds of thousands in the wilderness, why can't He provide for you?
To call what Jesus has obviously stated in Luke 14:33 as wrong, is blasphemy.

This is what they called Paul in Acts 24:5 - We have found this man to be a troublemaker who is constantly stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the cult known as the Nazarenes.

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Give practical examples of how God provides for someone who gives all their money and possessions away and who will not work.

Each and every disciple gave up all their possessions and none of them died of starvation or destitution.

Also all the members of the 1st Century church did too.

Acts 2:45 - And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Acts 4:34 - that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales3 5and lay them at the apostles? feet for distribution to anyone as he had need.?

None of them died of destitution or starvation either.

Lastly, I used to own a variety of businesses and was quite well to do. Then I shut the doors and gave them up after realizing this fact in the Bible. It has been 9 years now and God has provided for me in miraculous ways and I do not accept money for my ministry in any way. It all begins with first just accepting the concept that yes, indeed Jesus did say and mean this and lived like this to show us that we must follow his examples and teachings.

1 John 2:6 - Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Jesus did.

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Peter still had his house, his fishing nets, his boat. He didn't give them up. He went back to fishing after the resurrection. Moreover, he may even have done that on occasions during Christ's ministry. We don't know. What did they do in the winter, when it was pouring with rain, as it has rained about 50% of the time in the last five months?

It does not say that the boat Peter returned to was his. It could have been his father's.

Matthew 4:22 - They immediately followed him, leaving the boat and their father behind.

This was the case with James and John. The scriptures don't say Peter returned to his house. It only says he returned to Galilee because this is what Jesus commanded him to do.

Matthew 28:16 - Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.

Matthew 26:32 - But after I have been raised from the dead, I will go ahead of you to Galilee and meet you there.?

Matthew 28:7 - Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you."

Matthew 28:10 - Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me."

Mark 14:28 - But after I am raised from the dead, I will go ahead of you to Galilee and meet you there.?

Mark 16:7 - But go, tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.'"

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Offline eik

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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2021, 05:48:27 PM »
None of the disciples or first century church worked. They preached the word of God and God provided.

Acts 2:45 - And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Acts 4:34 - that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales3 5and lay them at the apostles? feet for distribution to anyone as he had need.?

I'm saying anyone who wishes to be a disciple of Jesus (which means Christian) must give up their possessions and preach the gospel.
You're adding to the bible. Nowhere does it say that they gave up their houses or jobs. You seem to be preaching a brand of communism.

Luke 14:33 - In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

Mark 16:15 - He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

Matthew 28:19-20 - Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.?


Of course they would say these things because they are lovers of money! So they are despising the teachings of Jesus as Jesus said:

Matthew 6:24-34 - ?No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
You take everything to extremes. Just because you work to earn money doesn't mean to say you serve money. That is clearly a false doctrine.

Do Not Worry

25?Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life e ?

28?And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you?you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, ?What shall we eat?? or ?What shall we drink?? or ?What shall we wear?? 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

This is not according to Jesus - it's a compromise.
1 Cor 7:17 "Regardless, each one should lead the life that the Lord has assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is what I prescribe in all the churches."

Note it is the Lord who prescibes a man the life he should live, not you.

The practice of the early church was for people to carry on in their trades unless they became apostles (messengers). cf. Lydia, the dealer in cloth.

Your view of the Bible is 'worldly'.
Realism, as I live in a non-Christian society, where even a 1 bedroom apartment costs GBP10,000 a year to rent.

James 4:4 - You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.

This is not having faith in Jesus' teachings, that if you put the kingdom of heaven first priority, God will provide for you. So sell your possessions and give it to the poor. We must not annul what Jesus has said.
What possessions would they be? I don't even have a TV. And where are the poor and which poor? You mean the ones with smart phones? I don't have one of them either.


Luke 6:46 - "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?

Matthew 7:21 - "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

James 1:22 - "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says."
You do sound like someone who would preach the gospel to someone and expect a financial reward. There are a lot of people in that business today.


This is irrelevant to this issue.
It is by no means irrelevant to the issue as its in the bible.

Matthew 7:14 - But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Matthew 22:14 - "For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Mark 10:24 - The disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said again, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!

You lack faith in Jesus teachings when it comes to 'many being slaves'. Slaves is slaves to sin and money.
Again you judge me. In what respect am I a slave to either sin or money?


We are ALL meant to give up all and preach the gospel.

I didn't say people will pay them - I said God will provide.
Not if you make yourself intentionally homeless. If you join some missionary society, I expect God will provide. But then again, not every Christian can be a missionary otherwise there would be noone to provide for them.

There were an estimated 726 deaths of homeless people in England and Wales registered in 2018, the highest year-to-year increase (22%) since our time series began.

Most of the deaths in 2018 were among men (641 estimated deaths; 88% of the total).

The mean age at death was 45 years for males and 43 years for females in 2018; in the general population of England and Wales, the mean age at death was 76 years for men and 81 years for women.

This means not working in the World. I am speaking about doing the work of God. We must do one or the other.
Not every believer can be a pastor or a preacher or a teacher. Again you pretend that everyone has a gift that they plainly don't have.

Jas 3:1 "Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly."

Luke 2:49 - And He said to them, ?Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father?s business??

John 5:17 - But Jesus answered them, ?My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.?



We are going in circles here. I already stated that according to your interpretation, Peter was worse than an unbeliever along with the rest of the disciples.

Matthew 19:27 - Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"

1 Corinthians 9:5 - Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas?

As we can see, they all had families.
Was Jesus damned because he spent the first 30 years of his life as a carpenter?

According to you he was. He would have been damned had he died before he started his ministry. So would Paul if he had died during his three years spent in Arabia or whereever he spent it after his conversion.

Eph 4:11 "And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,"

You are free to follow the false teachers then but I will follow the words of Jesus.
I follow no false teachers. If I do, tell me which ones.


You are reading these scriptures without faith.

Once again, we are going in circles. I have already showed you that God provides however, He wishes to do so such as in the mouth of a fish.

You are still looking for people to provide and not God. If God can provide for hundreds of thousands in the wilderness, why can't He provide for you?
And how will he provide for one with no money, no shelter and no possessions in a pagan society?

Life isn't like how you say it is. We don't live in Israel, in the clement climate of an established theocracy where people are in the habit of giving. We live in the UK where every household has a ?60,000 debt hanging over their heads or far more, except for the rich. I've never come across a single person in my entire life willing to give me a penny without working for it, except social security.

We live in an age of persecution.

I'm quite well aware that there are a lot of "Christians" happy to live off the wages of others, but that doesn't float my boat.

To call what Jesus has obviously stated in Luke 14:33 as wrong, is blasphemy.

This is what they called Paul in Acts 24:5 - We have found this man to be a troublemaker who is constantly stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the cult known as the Nazarenes.
The conventional interpretation of Luke 14:33 is that "To follow Jesus is to acknowledge that all we own belongs to God and is at his disposal."

As I say, what are you going to ask me to sell to enrich someone else whom doubtless has a TV, a smartphone, and a more expensive car than me and eats more expensive food than me?

What are you talking about?

You seem to be very judgemental.

Each and every disciple gave up all their possessions and none of them died of starvation or destitution.
How do you know? You haven't got the least idea probably because most of your theology is taken from so few bible verses which relate to a very different society to ours. Other verses you maintain are irrelevant, are very relevant. The  peoples of the Roman Empire suffered from all kinds of depradations, even after it have become officially Christian. When Islam came, all the Christians were driven out, or became slaves of Islam in the places they used to inhabit because their mentality was such that they couldn't defend themselves. For the Christian lands were populated with monks and people who didn't work and couldn't organize themselves to defend themselves, and so half the world became given over to Islam to the despite of the gospel, because Christians became idlers and philosophers and judgemental, not doers.

As I have pointed out, you likely would have been classed a vagrant in another period in the UK's history, unless you sponge off the income of others.

The mathematics of the situation are this, as Paul said:

2Th 3:10 "For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat."


Also all the members of the 1st Century church did too.

Acts 2:45 - And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Acts 4:34 - that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales3 5and lay them at the apostles? feet for distribution to anyone as he had need.?

None of them died of destitution or starvation either.

Lastly, I used to own a variety of businesses and was quite well to do. Then I shut the doors and gave them up after realizing this fact in the Bible. It has been 9 years now and God has provided for me in miraculous ways and I do not accept money for my ministry in any way. It all begins with first just accepting the concept that yes, indeed Jesus did say and mean this and lived like this to show us that we must follow his examples and teachings.

1 John 2:6 - Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Jesus did.

It does not say that the boat Peter returned to was his. It could have been his father's.

Matthew 4:22 - They immediately followed him, leaving the boat and their father behind.

This was the case with James and John. The scriptures don't say Peter returned to his house. It only says he returned to Galilee because this is what Jesus commanded him to do.

Matthew 28:16 - Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.

Matthew 26:32 - But after I have been raised from the dead, I will go ahead of you to Galilee and meet you there.?

Matthew 28:7 - Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you."

Matthew 28:10 - Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me."

Mark 14:28 - But after I am raised from the dead, I will go ahead of you to Galilee and meet you there.?

Mark 16:7 - But go, tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.'"
May be it was Peter's boat.

It is Christ who commands, not you. It is not for you to tell people what to do with their possessions. That is between them and God.

Offline Amos Ministries

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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2021, 09:16:05 PM »
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You're adding to the bible. Nowhere does it say that they gave up their houses or jobs. You seem to be preaching a brand of communism.

Luke 14:33 - So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

What do you think 'all his own possessions' means? It's pretty clear. Peter himself even said "Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?" (Matt 19:27)

I think you're arguments are getting a little ridiculous and tedious.

1 John 2:6 - whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

Jesus didn't have anything.

Luke 9:58 - Jesus replied, "Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."

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You take everything to extremes. Just because you work to earn money doesn't mean to say you serve money. That is clearly a false doctrine.

Your doctrine is clearly compromised since Jesus and the disciples did not work. They preached and God provided. You're getting a little ridiculous now.

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Note it is the Lord who prescibes a man the life he should live, not you.

I am not claiming to prescribe anything. Nor did I didn't write Luke 14:33 or Luke 12 or any of the other scriptures in the Bible. You are compromising Jesus' teachings and you want me to go with you. Well, I won't. At this point, I'm just repeating things to you and we are going in circles.

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cf. Lydia, the dealer cloth.

Lydia was obviously a divorced woman. It says she wasn't even baptized yet when she was a dealer of purple cloth. Lol.
But you go ahead and follow Lydia and I'll follow Jesus...like I said, getting ridiculous.

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Realism, actually as I live in a non-Christian society.

Lack of faith, actually.

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What possessions would they be? I don't even have a TV. And where are the poor and which poor? You mean the ones with smart phones? I don't have one of them either.

Yes, that's it! Make an excuse for everything and stick your head in the sand.

Luke 16:14 - The Pharisees, who dearly loved their money, heard all this and scoffed at him.

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You do sound like someone who would preach the gospel to someone and expect a financial reward. There are a lot of people in that business today.
I actually don't ask anyone for money. I have given up all and rely on God to provide and add to me what I need. You are the one who loves money and you are contradicting yourself. Stop being foolish.

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It is by no means irrelevant to the issue as its in the bible.

You're taking things I have said out of context just like you have done with the biblical scriptures. Stop manipulating and compromising.

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Again you judge me. In what respect am I a slave to either sin or money?

1 Corinthians 5:12 - It isn?t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning.

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Not if you make yourself intentionally homeless. If you join some missionary society, I expect God will provide. But then again, not every Christian can be a missionary otherwise there would be noone to provide for them.

Don't worry, the entire world is not going to listen to Jesus' words - history has proven that.

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There were an estimated 726 deaths of homeless people in England and Wales registered in 2018, the highest year-to-year increase (22%) since our time series began.

Most of the deaths in 2018 were among men (641 estimated deaths; 88% of the total).

The mean age at death was 45 years for males and 43 years for females in 2018; in the general population of England and Wales, the mean age at death was 76 years for men and 81 years for women.

Romans 12:2 - Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Jas 3:1 "Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly."

James is stating not to be in a rush to become a teacher.

1 Timothy 1:7 - They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

1 Corinthians 12:4-5 - Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.

You don't seem to understand that the gifts of the spirit compliment the ministry.

Mark 16:20 - Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

Matthew 28:19 - Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

Again, you are contradicting the bible.

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Was Jesus damned because he spent the first 30 years of his life as a carpenter?

Of course not! We all spend a large portion of our lives working, but once we understand the concept Jesus is speaking of, we can either reject it or comply.

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According to you he was. He would have been damned had he died before he started his ministry. So would Paul if he had died during his three years spent in Arabia or whereever he spent it after his conversion.

As for Paul 1 Timothy :13 - Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

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Eph 4:11 "And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,"

Yes, you have to have some kind of ministry - not just looking to feed yourself!

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And how will he provide for one with no money, no shelter and no possessions in a pagan society?

God will provide for the 20th time.

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Life isn't like how you say it is. We don't live in Israel, in the clement climate of an established theocracy where people are in the habit of giving. We live in the UK where every household has a ?60,000 debt hanging over their heads or far more, except for the rich. I've never come across a single person in my entire life willing to give me a penny without working for it, except social security.

Yeah you're right, God has no power in England. lol

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The conventional interpretation of Luke 14:33 is that "To follow Jesus is to acknowledge that all we own belongs to God and is at his disposal."

This is a compromised interpretation - whether it's conventional or not doesn't make it right.

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As I say, what are you going to ask me to sell to enrich someone else whom doubtless has a TV, a smartphone, and a more expensive car than me and eats more expensive food than me?

Luke 16:14 - The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus.

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You seem to be very judgemental.

It isn?t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning.

You are so unrepentant that you can?t stand there being one man that sees you as wrong.

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How do you know? You haven't got the least idea probably because most of your theology is taken from so few bible verses which relate to a very different society to ours.

Matthew 19:27 - ?Look,? Peter replied, ?we have left everything to follow You. What then will there be for us??

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2Th 3:10 "For even when we were with you, we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat."

This means that if you do not work in the world AND you will not do the work of God, then you don't eat. Otherwise, you are stating that Peter was unrighteous and that he shouldn't have left his family and business for Jesus.

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It is Christ who commands, not you. It is not for you to tell people what to do with their possessions. That is between them and God.

And here is what Christ commands: Luke 14:33 - So you cannot become my disciple without giving up everything you own.

I am not telling you to do anything - it is Christ. I am only speaking his words. If I was speaking from my own spirit, it would probably tell you the opposite of give up all. But as I am speaking what Jesus said, it is from the Holy Spirit.

Do what you will, but as you reject this commandment, know you are committing blasphemy.

Luke 6:46 - ?So why do you keep calling me ?Lord, Lord!? when you don?t do what I say?

You love money and not God.

You are wasting my time by going in circles.


Pastor Amos

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Re: The Love Of Money Is Idol Worshipping
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2021, 12:07:01 PM »
Luke 14:33 - So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

What do you think 'all his own possessions' means? It's pretty clear. Peter himself even said "Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?" (Matt 19:27)

I think you're arguments are getting a little ridiculous and tedious.
And so frankly is your refusal to say what you mean and your repetition of verses ad infinitum without admitting contrary verses that hold that not all the disciples did give up their houses and possessions etc.

There is no way anyone can live in a modern society without possessions. Your teaching is false and extremely dangerous. For it directly contradicts the teaching of Christ and the apostles: Luke 22:36 "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

So clearly Jesus allowed for even his own disciples to have possessions.

The point I want you to respond to, is exactly whom is more worthy to keep possessions other than the original possessor, if your teaching holds true? For by your own logic, the mere giving away of possessions to another would constitute a sin, for you have deemed it sinful to have possessions. The only proper thing to do with possessions would be to destroy them all, to render them as of no use, as in your sight they are evil. Too many may be evil, but you have inferred that they are intrinsically evil, which the bible nowhere teaches.

Your teaching is fundmentally Manichean, which is a long known heresy, which equates everything in the material world with evil and values aesthetism for its own ends. You may find it expedient to check out Mani.


You love money and not God.

You are wasting my time by going in circles.
I'll never be a member of your church, whatever it may be, because I don't find your judgementalism remotely Christian.

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