Author Topic: Don't Let Water Baptism Stop You From The Ultimate Goal!  (Read 506 times)

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Offline Amos Ministries

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Re: Don't Let Water Baptism Stop You From The Ultimate Goal!
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2021, 06:23:16 PM »
Hey Eik: not sure why by I can't quote each section of your reply, so my replies are in bold.

John the Baptist did.

No, he did not.

Matthew 11:11 - Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."


Luke 1:17 "He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,' and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."

Matthew 17:3 & 5: Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, ?This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!?

The spirit of Elijah is not the same as the fullness of the Spirit Jesus had.

John 1:15 - John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, ?This is the one I spoke about when I said, ?He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.??)

John 5:36 NLT - But I have a greater witness than John?my teachings and my miracles. The Father gave me these works to accomplish, and they prove that he sent me.

John 1:27 -  Though his ministry follows mine, I?m not even worthy to be his slave and untie the straps of his sandal.?

Matthew 3:11 - "'I baptize with water those who repent of their sins and turn to God. But someone is coming soon who is greater than I am--so much greater that I'm not worthy even to be his slave and carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

Mark 1:7 - John announced: ?Someone is coming soon who is greater than I am?so much greater that I?m not even worthy to stoop down like a slave and untie the straps of his sandals.

Luke 3:16 - John answered their questions by saying, ?I baptize you with[a] water; but someone is coming soon who is greater than I am?so much greater that I?m not even worthy to be his slave and untie the straps of his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.[

Acts 13:25 - As John was finishing his ministry he asked, ?Do you think I am the Messiah? No, I am not! But he is coming soon?and I?m not even worthy to be his slave and untie the sandals on his feet.?


The closest the bible comes to "repentance in spirit" is Rom 7:6 (newness is spirit). A person's spirit must become alive to God, as opposed to being dead. Frequently this only comes by expelling the evil spirits living in a person. However repentance itself is strictly a matter of bodily activity and of the heart.

1 Peter 3:21 - and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also?not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

True. It's an endless cycle of hearing and repenting.

Agreed!

It's not what the bible says. It says he "believed."

Acts 8:13 says - Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.
He only believed due tot he signs and wonders.


Yet I accept his understanding of the message was very, very shallow; for he immediately saw the message as a means to personal financial gain.




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Offline eik

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Re: Don't Let Water Baptism Stop You From The Ultimate Goal!
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2021, 02:02:51 PM »
Hey Eik: not sure why by I can't quote each section of your reply, so my replies are in bold.
I think you put quotes within quotes. Too many levels of quotes.

My replies:

John the Baptist: clearly had the Holy Spirit. What Jesus was referring to when saying that Christians have or are more than he, is the complete forgiveness of sins and access to the Holy of holies that came after Christ's resurrection, and the ability to converse with God. It is referring to their elevated status courtesy of the work of Christ. I can't see that Jesus was either seeking to diminish John having the Holy Spirit or disparage the nature of his work. He was pointing to the nature of the salvation that came through himself.

Simon Magus: When Acts refers to his belief, I think it infers what is alluded to in Jhn 14:11 "believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or at least believe because of the work you have seen me do."

You can believe this much of Christ without ever repenting of your sins. So many do profess such a belief.






Offline Amos Ministries

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Re: Don't Let Water Baptism Stop You From The Ultimate Goal!
« Reply #10 on: January 07, 2021, 06:12:55 PM »
I think you put quotes within quotes. Too many levels of quotes.

My replies:

John the Baptist: clearly had the Holy Spirit. What Jesus was referring to when saying that Christians have or are more than he, is the complete forgiveness of sins and access to the Holy of holies that came after Christ's resurrection, and the ability to converse with God. It is referring to their elevated status courtesy of the work of Christ.

John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit, but not in its fullness.

John 16:7 - But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

John 14:16 - And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever--

John 14:26 - But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 7:39 - But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

John 15:26 - "When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father--the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father--he will testify about me.

Quote
I can't see that Jesus was either seeking to diminish John having the Holy Spirit or disparage the nature of his work. He was pointing to the nature of the salvation that came through himself.

No, John the Baptist did not have the fullness of the spirit and it was John who diminished himself.

John 1:27 - He is the one who comes after me, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie."

Quote
Simon Magus: When Acts refers to his belief, I think it infers what is alluded to in Jhn 14:11 "believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or at least believe because of the work you have seen me do."

Most translations say: 'believe me of the works themselves.'

The works of Jesus was his teachings - his interpretation. Not signs, wonders and miracles. That is why Paul states it is by faith and not works. Meaning it's our faith in Jesus' interpretation not our own interpretation of God's word.

Simon however, believed only because of the miracles as he was formerly a magician, who caused people to believe in him through tricks, and was attempting to bring that same mentality of belief through tricks into Christianity.

Quote
You can believe this much of Christ without ever repenting of your sins. So many do profess such a belief.

Now this statement we are in full agreement with!

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Offline eik

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Re: Don't Let Water Baptism Stop You From The Ultimate Goal!
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2021, 05:41:10 PM »
John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit, but not in its fullness.

John 16:7 - But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

John 14:16 - And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever--

John 14:26 - But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 7:39 - But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

John 15:26 - "When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father--the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father--he will testify about me.

No, John the Baptist did not have the fullness of the spirit and it was John who diminished himself.

John 1:27 - He is the one who comes after me, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie."
No one has or had the fulness of the Spirit except Christ himself. "Jhn 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him."

The Holy Spirit is given by measure to humans, which includes believers and God's appointed prophets: Neh 9:30 "Yet many years didst thou forbear them, and testifiedst against them by thy spirit in thy prophets:"


Most translations say: 'believe me of the works themselves.'

The works of Jesus was his teachings - his interpretation. Not signs, wonders and miracles. That is why Paul states it is by faith and not works. Meaning it's our faith in Jesus' interpretation not our own interpretation of God's word.
Not so. The work of Jesus was everything he did. When Paul says "by faith and not by works" he meant "not justified by the works of the law of Moses," i.e. the legal requirements of the Old Testament law. You are confusing different things. Faith is based on evidence and can include the miracles of Christ i.e. Christ's work. Simon's faith was a shallow faith and limited to acceptance of the evidence of the miracles of God by believers.

Simon however, believed only because of the miracles as he was formerly a magician, who caused people to believe in him through tricks, and was attempting to bring that same mentality of belief through tricks into Christianity.
He never repented of being a magician. That was his problem.

Offline Amos Ministries

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Re: Don't Let Water Baptism Stop You From The Ultimate Goal!
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2021, 06:08:47 PM »
Ephesians  4:13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

John 1:16
From His fullness we have all received grace upon grace.

 Matthew 10:25  Students are to be like their teacher, and slaves are to be like their master. And since I, the master of the household, have been called the prince of demons, the members of my household will be called by even worse names!

 John 14:12 ?I tell you the truth, anyone who believes in me will do the same works I have done, and even greater works, because I am going to be with the Father. 

So we are meant to have the fulness of the spirit like Jesus, that was the point of Jesus the Messiah coming.
Please provide me with a scripture in the New Testament that states that God gives limitations on the spirit he provides us.

 Regarding works it is not referring to the works of Moses, it is referring  to the works of people that try to interpret the law that was given through Moses they interpret it the wrong way rather than by faith excepting Jesus his interpretation of how to fulfil the law in our lives As Jesus said I came to fulfil the law not to abolish. I think regarding the Simon the magician issue you?re essentially saying you agree with what I?m saying.

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Offline eik

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Re: Don't Let Water Baptism Stop You From The Ultimate Goal!
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2021, 09:56:59 AM »
Please provide me with a scripture in the New Testament that states that God gives limitations on the spirit he provides us.
The very words of John 3:34 assume it. However the teaching of Christ clearly includes the concept in Matthew 25:29; "For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away."

The work of Christ is to "believe" on him.  John 6:29.

As the concept of faith being weak, and strong, exists, as does the concept of spiritual maturity, so does the measure of the Holy Spirit given to a person. What one can imbibe from the Holy Spirit is variable.

It's not to make an objective claim about the nature of the Spirit. It's to make an objective claim about the degree of influence the Holy Spirit can have over a person.

Regarding works it is not referring to the works of Moses, it is referring  to the works of people that try to interpret the law that was given through Moses they interpret it the wrong way rather than by faith excepting Jesus his interpretation of how to fulfil the law in our lives.
The concept of justification by works (the OT way) is radically different from justification by faith in Christ. When the bible speaks of works, it is alluding to one of two completely different things: works done to procure justification under the OT law, and works done because of faith in God. The former are no longer necessary. The latter are vital to keep faith alive.

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Re: Don't Let Water Baptism Stop You From The Ultimate Goal!
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2021, 06:30:48 PM »
Other translations of John 3:34 say

English Standard Version - For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure.
Berean Study Bible - For the One whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.
New King James Version - For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
New American Standard Bible - For He whom God sent speaks the words of God; for He does not give the Spirit sparingly.

These translations (and many more) do not say it in the way you interpret. It is said that God does not give the Spirit with limitations period not just for Jesus.

John 1:16 - For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.

Ephesians 3:19 - and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

Quote
The very words of John 3:34 assume it. However the teaching of Christ clearly includes the concept in Matthew 25:29; "For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away."

This scripture is referring to the truths God gives and if people compromise and manipulate any truths, it will even cause them to compromise the truths they formerly had understood. I don't believe this scripture is speaking specifically of the Holy Spirit.

But I do agree that you can lose the Holy Spirit in your life by compromising, manipulating and twisting the truth. I do think that it's the person who compromised doing and not God giving the Spirit with a limitation. But rather the person causing the Spirit to diminish in their life.

Quote
As the concept of faith being weak, and strong, exists, as does the concept of spiritual maturity, so does the measure of the Holy Spirit given to a person. What one can imbibe from the Holy Spirit is variable.

I believe that yes, you can lose the Holy Spirit but that it is the compromiser that is the cause of losing it - not God giving it with different measures to different people.

Quote
The concept of justification by works (the OT way) is radically different from justification by faith in Christ. When the bible speaks of works, it is alluding to one of two completely different things: works done to procure justification under the OT law, and works done because of faith in God. The former are no longer necessary. The latter are vital to keep faith alive.

There is nothing wrong with the law. The law is perfect. It is peoples' interpretation that is wrong. The law was so perfect that it was left to interpretation. But Jesus explained the practical application and interpretation of the law. This was the Messiah's work. The Samaritan woman at the well said when the Messiah comes, he will explain all things and Jesus said "I am he". Now, we don't have to do this word anymore. To righteously apply the law, we just have to have faith in Jesus' interpretation of the law. This is what it means to have faith and not works. Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it. His teachings show us how to fulfill the law but your statement above is stating he came to abolish the law.
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Re: Don't Let Water Baptism Stop You From The Ultimate Goal!
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2021, 01:21:23 PM »
Other translations of John 3:34 say

English Standard Version - For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure.
Berean Study Bible - For the One whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.
New King James Version - For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
New American Standard Bible - For He whom God sent speaks the words of God; for He does not give the Spirit sparingly.

These translations (and many more) do not say it in the way you interpret. It is said that God does not give the Spirit with limitations period not just for Jesus.

John 1:16 - For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.

Ephesians 3:19 - and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

This scripture is referring to the truths God gives and if people compromise and manipulate any truths, it will even cause them to compromise the truths they formerly had understood. I don't believe this scripture is speaking specifically of the Holy Spirit.

But I do agree that you can lose the Holy Spirit in your life by compromising, manipulating and twisting the truth. I do think that it's the person who compromised doing and not God giving the Spirit with a limitation. But rather the person causing the Spirit to diminish in their life.

I believe that yes, you can lose the Holy Spirit but that it is the compromiser that is the cause of losing it - not God giving it with different measures to different people.
It's not about compromise, but it's about how much a person can take of the Holy Spirit. As God said to Moses, if anyone sees the face of God they will die. Ex 33:20. This couldn't have applied to Christ. Man cannot fully imbibe God until he has trained himself to do it, or rather until God has trained him. Again it is not the Holy Spirit that is being divided but the ability of man to be filled by him. Thus Stephen on his martyrdom could see what noone else could see, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Acts 7:56

There is nothing wrong with the law. The law is perfect. It is peoples' interpretation that is wrong. The law was so perfect that it was left to interpretation. But Jesus explained the practical application and interpretation of the law. This was the Messiah's work. The Samaritan woman at the well said when the Messiah comes, he will explain all things and Jesus said "I am he". Now, we don't have to do this word anymore. To righteously apply the law, we just have to have faith in Jesus' interpretation of the law. This is what it means to have faith and not works. Jesus said he came to fulfill the law, not to abolish it. His teachings show us how to fulfill the law but your statement above is stating he came to abolish the law.
Yes and no. Practically he absolished the lower commandments, with their harsh rules and theirs do's and don'ts i.e. the traditions of men Col 2:8. This includes circumcision. I don't really agree that it was "left to interpretation" for the Pharisees merely abolished the law. The law could only be fulfilled in one way which was the way Christ did it.

So we have the concept of the law being fulfilled without having to obey the lower commands, for as Jesus taught, some commands were much highers than others. It is this hierarchy of spirituality that we have to get to grips with.



 

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