Don't Let Water Baptism Stop You From The Ultimate Goal!

[Amos Ministries]

gain it is not the Holy Spirit that is being divided but the ability of man to be filled by him.

So regarding this we are in agreement!

It's not about compromise, but it's about how much a person can take of the Holy Spirit. As God said to Moses, if anyone sees the face of God they will die. Ex 33:20. This couldn't have applied to Christ.

No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

This applies to Christ as well. Christ has made God known to us. Yet John 6:46 says not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father.

And so we can see there's no different between understanding God (meaning to see God with our spiritual eyes) and seeing God with our physical eyes. Same with Moses, although Exodus 33:20 says But,? he said, ?you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.?

Exodus 33:11 - Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his assistant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.

Deuteronomy 34:10 - Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,

Numbers 12:8 explains this a bit more - With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses??

Moses understood and saw God with his spiritual eyes but did not actually see God with his physical eyes.

Yes and no. Practically he absolished the lower commandments, with their harsh rules and theirs do's and don'ts i.e. the traditions of men Col 2:8. This includes circumcision. I don't really agree that it was "left to interpretation" for the Pharisees merely abolished the law. The law could only be fulfilled in one way which was the way Christ did it.

Correct, but the Pharisees had the temple system, which made up for their flawed interpretation. Jesus replaced the temple system, making it obsolete. The temple system with its sacrifices, allowed the Pharisees to understand the law according to their own interpretation. But since Jesus, there is only one way to fulfill the law and that is through Jesus' teachings.

So we have the concept of the law being fulfilled without having to obey the lower commands, for as Jesus taught, some commands were much highers than others. It is this hierarchy of spirituality that we have to get to grips with.

Jesus abolished denominational traditions which you are calling 'lower commandments'. Denominational traditions are essentially exceptions which were not party of the law from the beginning. Through a lack of faith, and the law being so perfect, it sounds like its open to interpretation and the Pharisees added exceptions. This is what Jesus essentially abolished, these exceptions they added to the law - that's how Jesus fulfilled the law.

[eik]

And so we can see there's no different between understanding God (meaning to see God with our spiritual eyes) and seeing God with our physical eyes. Same with Moses, although Exodus 33:20 says But,? he said, ?you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.?

Exodus 33:11 - Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. When Moses turned again into the camp, his assistant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, would not depart from the tent.

Deuteronomy 34:10 - Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,

Numbers 12:8 explains this a bit more - With him I speak mouth to mouth, clearly, and not in riddles, and he beholds the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses??

Moses understood and saw God with his spiritual eyes but did not actually see God with his physical eyes.

I disagree that to see God with our spiritual eyes is the same as seeing the face of God. If discerning God spiritually involved "seeing God" then Christ would not have been the only one to see God, nor even the first, as you yourself have pointed out. For many prophets with the Holy Spirit preceded the coming of Christ.

When it says God talked with Moses face to face, it could equally be interpreted "presence to presence" i.e. direct interaction. That's not to say that Moses didn't see the glory of God: he did, but not the full glory, because he was only talking with an angel of God (the law was put into effect by angels - Hebrews).

The point is that God is invisible to mortal man, but Christ being previously on the throne of God, saw God's face because he was God, which is why, when he was made a man, he was filled with the Holy Spirit more than anyone else, because only he could possess the Holy Spirit to its fullest extent.

Correct, but the Pharisees had the temple system, which made up for their fDeuteronomy 34:10 lawed interpretation. Jesus replaced the temple system, making it obsolete. The temple system with its sacrifices, allowed the Pharisees to understand the law according to their own interpretation. But since Jesus, there is only one way to fulfill the law and that is through Jesus' teachings.

The sacrificial system was a system of justification by rule observance including temple worship prescribed by the Old Testament. It long predated "Pharisaic traditions." It was the law of Moses. Christ instituted a new system of justification apart from law, by faith, which upholds the law, by which is meant the spiritual law, but not the former prescription for justification by rule observance. We have to be clear that all the former "petty" rules under the Old Testament were for justification. Those justified by faith do not have to obey them, because they are no longer profitable, even if at one time they were profitable. The age of science is upon us. We can eat pork because we can make it safe to eat. We don't need ritual washings etc, nor do we need to dig holes in the ground, because we have modern plumbing systems. Yet there is still a whole host of Old Testament rules that Christians are obligated to obey, because they are part of the spiritual law.

Jesus abolished denominational traditions which you are calling 'lower commandments'. Denominational traditions are essentially exceptions which were not party of the law from the beginning. Through a lack of faith, and the law being so perfect, it sounds like its open to interpretation and the Pharisees added exceptions. This is what Jesus essentially abolished, these exceptions they added to the law - that's how Jesus fulfilled the law.

I agree, preovided you include in the "denominational" traditions the full gamut of Old Testament writ peculiar to the Jews, and that you apprehend by "denomination" a different system of justification from sin.

[Amos Ministries]

I disagree that to see God with our spiritual eyes is the same as seeing the face of God. If discerning God spiritually involved "seeing God" then Christ would not have been the only one to see God,

Jesus was the only one ever to fully understand who God is and his characteristics and he has made God's characteristics known to us.

John 1:18 - No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

John 7:16-17 - Jesus answered them and said, ?My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.

For many prophets with the Holy Spirit preceded the coming of Christ.

None of the prophets understood God fully like Jesus. This was the purpose of the Messiah; to make God fully known.

John 4:25-26 - The woman said, ?I know the Messiah is coming?the one who is called Christ. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.?

26 Then Jesus told her, ?I am the Messiah!?

When it says God talked with Moses face to face, it could equally be interpreted "presence to presence" i.e. direct interaction.

No, because in the same chapter, it says no one can look upon God and live.

That's not to say that Moses didn't see the glory of God: he did, but not the full glory, because he was only talking with an angel of God (the law was put into effect by angels - Hebrews).

You're kind of going in circles here....

The point is that God is invisible to mortal man, but Christ being previously on the throne of God, saw God's face because he was God, which is why, when he was made a man, he was filled with the Holy Spirit more than anyone else,

No, as I already said I don't agree. The Holy Spirit is not given in measure. Jesus had a greater measure that the people before he came but not the people after he came.

which upholds the law, by which is meant the spiritual law, but not the former prescription for justification by rule observance.

This concept is not biblical. The New Testament still states we cannot eat meat with blood in it and also that wives need to cover their heads when prophesying or praying in church.

Romans 3:31 - Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

Matthew 5:17 - Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

We have to be clear that all the former "petty" rules under the Old Testament were for justification. Those justified by faith do not have to obey them, because they are no longer profitable, even if at one time they were profitable.

This is to subtly allude to Jesus having abolished the law but with your lips, stating that he did not.

Romans 10:3-4 - Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God?s righteousness. 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

The Jews were trying to fulfill the law through their own interpretation which is by works. But we can only fulfill the law through accepting Jesus' interpretation of the law which is done so by faith.

The age of science is upon us. We can eat pork because we can make it safe to eat. We don't need ritual washings

Agreed

Yet there is still a whole host of Old Testament rules that Christians are obligated to obey, because they are part of the spiritual law.

There is no spiritual law. There is only the law through Jesus' interpretation of it, if this is what you mean by spiritual law, then I agree.

It is all about interpretation.

Matthew 19:17 - ?Why do you ask me about what is good?? Jesus replied. ?There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.?

Luke 10:26 - He said to him, ?What is written in the Law? How do you read it??

I agree, preovided you include in the "denominational" traditions the full gamut of Old Testament writ peculiar to the Jews, and that you apprehend by "denomination" a different system of justification from sin.

Agreed.

[eik]

Jesus was the only one ever to fully understand who God is and his characteristics and he has made God's characteristics known to us.

John 1:18 - No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

John 7:16-17 - Jesus answered them and said, ?My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.

None of the prophets understood God fully like Jesus. This was the purpose of the Messiah; to make God fully known.

John 4:25-26 - The woman said, ?I know the Messiah is coming?the one who is called Christ. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.?

26 Then Jesus told her, ?I am the Messiah!?

No, because in the same chapter, it says no one can look upon God and live.

You're kind of going in circles here....

No, as I already said I don't agree. The Holy Spirit is not given in measure. Jesus had a greater measure that the people before he came but not the people after he came.

I disagree. He was the only begotten Son of God. All others are adopted, only Jesus was the true son of God. To Jesus was given a name higher than any other. He is before all things. It is absurd to equate Jesus with any other believer, either as to what he received from God on earth or after he was resurrected.

This concept is not biblical. The New Testament still states we cannot eat meat with blood in it and also that wives need to cover their heads when prophesying or praying in church.

I don't disagree, though I personally don't eat much meat as I prefer fish.

Romans 3:31 - Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.

Matthew 5:17 - Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

This is to subtly allude to Jesus having abolished the law but with your lips, stating that he did not.

Jesus has made the unspiritual elements of the law redundant. That is beyond dispute.

Act 11:9 "But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."

So many things have been cleansed to the believer that were previously unclean. This is the new covenant.

Jesus has not abolished he law, but restructured it according to the new plan of jusification by faith in Christ.

Restructuring entails the effective abolition of many of the lower elements of the law, especially concerned only with justification before God. That is to say, the elements that have almost no impact on other human beings.

Romans 10:3-4 - Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God?s righteousness. 4 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

The Jews were trying to fulfill the law through their own interpretation which is by works. But we can only fulfill the law through accepting Jesus' interpretation of the law which is done so by faith.

Agreed

There is no spiritual law. There is only the law through Jesus' interpretation of it, if this is what you mean by spiritual law, then I agree.

Then we agree.

It is all about interpretation.

I agree, but its also about understanding which elements of the law are unprofitable and which are profitable in the age of justification by faith.

[Amos Ministries]

I disagree. He was the only begotten Son of God. All others are adopted, only Jesus was the true son of God. To Jesus was given a name higher than any other. He is before all things. It is absurd to equate Jesus with any other believer, either as to what he received from God on earth or after he was resurrected.

John 14:11-12 - Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves. 12?Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

John 17:6 - ?I have revealed you to the ones you gave me from this world. They were always yours. You gave them to me, and they have kept your word."

John 17:11 - ?I have revealed you to the ones you gave me from this world. They were always yours. You gave them to me, and they have kept your word.

There is no name greater and a true believer has the same name. I am stating that no one is greater that Jesus, but we have the same Holy Spirit fulness that Jesus had.

Luke 6:40 - A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone when he is fully trained will be like his teacher.

John 17:20-23 - ?I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

      22?The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

But the part where you say that Jesus always was the son from the beginning and us being adopted, is true. This however, does not mean that we have less of the Spirit and can never have the fullness of the spirit here on earth.

Jesus has made the unspiritual elements of the law redundant. That is beyond dispute.

Not eating blood in the meat and the covering of a wife's head when prophesying or praying are physical elements as well, yet these things have not been made redundant with the coming of Christ.

Act 11:9 "But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."

This is regarding specifically all animals being clean, but it also refers to both Jews and Gentiles. So how come the blood is still not clean to consume? The commandment not to consume blood still stands as we see in the New Testament.

So many things have been cleansed to the believer that were previously unclean. This is the new covenant.

Yes, but not everything. Only what the Bible specifies; like consuming meat with blood is still prohibited.

Jesus has not abolished he law, but restructured it according to the new plan of jusification by faith in Christ.

I would say he restored the Law to how it was meant to be, without the traditions of man added.

Restructuring entails the effective abolition of many of the lower elements of the law, especially concerned only with justification before God. That is to say, the elements that have almost no impact on other human beings.

No. What you are summarizing is the traditions of man, not God's law.

I agree, but its also about understanding which elements of the law are unprofitable and which are profitable in the age of justification by faith.

All elements of the law are profitable, but the traditions of man are not profitable.

Jesus said you nullify the power of God by holding on to your traditions.(Mark 7:13).

This includes all denominations. They are all merely traditions of man and they nullify the word of God. This is what is unprofitable - nothing God has ever said can be unprofitable What God makes is perfect - it's humans that pollute what is pure.

God's law is not unprofitable but rather, the exceptions that man has added to it which are their traditions (denominational doctrine) are. During his ministry, Jesus came to restore and reverse what man has messed up. He still does that today for repentant people.

[TJ's]

Yeah the argument is about Jesus in you..

I see a further argument - in that God is self sufficient - so why would He need to provide for anyone.

I know He does - as hwne myself and my wife were taking driving lessons - I past first time  much to my amazement - as I had never past any test or exam [up until that time]

A week later God provided a car - never happened before and never happened since..


So what is the argument here ?


In a way we are giving birth,

Paul himself gave birth to so many gentiles, and he preached through/ in the  synagogues and copied Jesus in preaching to masses..

Paul lost large amounts of money through what he did - he was a tent maker.

But he became the main writer  of the new testament ..

He was willing to give up everything... so that people might see the Light..