Author Topic: Gifts Of The Spirit Are NOT Proof That You Have The Holy Spirit  (Read 687 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Amos Ministries

  • Pastor Amos
  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80
  • Gender: Male
  • Welcome our New Member
    • Amos Ministries
Re: Gifts Of The Spirit Are NOT Proof That You Have The Holy Spirit
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2021, 10:58:05 PM »

Welcome to the Biblical and Theology Section of 1Faith

[Raise a Debate] @ 1faith

Your post will be answered shortly

Raise a Debate - by posting bait !
Yeah but theres none perfect bit Jesus, so how is that scenario ever going to work?

You must live according to Jesus?s teachings you must not compromise manipulate or twist his teachings where you fall short of his teachings you must ask for forgiveness from God By admitting you sinned  to him and being able to identify them according to Jesus?s teachings and standards. Instead of manipulating and compromising and lowering the standards so that we appear innocent without excepting our shortcomings.

None of us are perfect but Our standards can be perfect if we believe Jesus?s teachings without compromise and manipulation And ask for forgiveness when we fall short.
Pastor Amos

Welcome to the Biblical and Theology Section of 1Faith

[Raise a Debate] @ 1faith

Your post will be answered shortly

Raise a Debate - by posting bait !

Offline francis drake

  • Bible Buddies - together
  • ******
  • Posts: 2559
  • Gender: Male
    • Francis Drake Privateer
Re: Gifts Of The Spirit Are NOT Proof That You Have The Holy Spirit
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2021, 10:00:59 PM »
You must live according to Jesus?s teachings you must not compromise manipulate or twist his teachings where you fall short of his teachings you must ask for forgiveness from God By admitting you sinned  to him and being able to identify them according to Jesus?s teachings and standards. Instead of manipulating and compromising and lowering the standards so that we appear innocent without excepting our shortcomings.
I seem to recall Jesus telling the disciples that our Heavenly Father gives the Holy Spirit to those who ask, not to those who jump through perfectionist hoops.

Lk11v11If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!?
Quote
None of us are perfect but Our standards can be perfect if we believe Jesus?s teachings without compromise and manipulation And ask for forgiveness when we fall short.
It all sounds a bit of cart before the horse to me.
A son has access to his father's house because that's where he was born, not because he has perfect standards.

Matt18v3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.


Nobody gets the Holy Spirit because they have perfected their lives. On the contrary, God gives the Holy Spirit to those whose lives are a mess in order to strengthen and guide them out of that mess
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Amos Ministries

  • Pastor Amos
  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80
  • Gender: Male
  • Welcome our New Member
    • Amos Ministries
Re: Gifts Of The Spirit Are NOT Proof That You Have The Holy Spirit
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2021, 08:21:54 PM »
Quote
I seem to recall Jesus telling the disciples that our Heavenly Father gives the Holy Spirit to those who ask, not to those who jump through perfectionist hoops.

So you believe that you can have the SAME spirit as Jesus while not agreeing or accepting something that he said? How can you share the same spirit while contradicting Jesus? Jesus himself said "my words are spirit".

Quote
Lk11v11If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!?
Acts 5:32 - We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.?
He also says to' seek and knock' which means to obey His commandments.

John 14:23-24 - Jesus replied, ?Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Quote
It all sounds a bit of cart before the horse to me.
A son has access to his father's house because that's where he was born, not because he has perfect standards.

No, man is born in sin. Only through his acceptance of the words and teachings of Jesus without compromising it with his own views, philosophies and experiences, can he receive the Holy Spirit. This is all in reference to a man's philosophies because in action, a man will never be perfect. He will always fall short/transgress. And when he does, he will ask for forgiveness and God is sure to give it. But if a man's philosophy is wrong, he will not be able to identify when he has sinned in order so that he can ask for forgiveness. Without acknowledging sin, he will remain unforgiven.

Quote
Nobody gets the Holy Spirit because they have perfected their lives.

No, faith in the teachings of Jesus must straighten out your philosophical mess and your actions will soon follow through the enablement of the Holy Spirit.

Pastor Amos

Offline francis drake

  • Bible Buddies - together
  • ******
  • Posts: 2559
  • Gender: Male
    • Francis Drake Privateer
Re: Gifts Of The Spirit Are NOT Proof That You Have The Holy Spirit
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2021, 02:28:50 PM »
So you believe that you can have the SAME spirit as Jesus while not agreeing or accepting something that he said? How can you share the same spirit while contradicting Jesus? Jesus himself said "my words are spirit".
Amos, you obviously believe you have the Holy Spirit, yet I can guarantee there are many things in your life that disagree with the Lord.
Unless of course, you have attained to perfection.

Me, I was filled with the Holy Spirit back in the 70s, and am daily being filled, but there are still countless areas of my life that are far from right and still needing attention. And it is the Holy Spirit who convicts leads me into righteousness.
Quote
Acts 5:32 - We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.?
Asking for his spirit to help us,is the first and foremost act of obedience. To think we can sort our lives out before God sends his spirit is complete deception.
Quote
He also says to' seek and knock' which means to obey His commandments.
'Seek and knock' means exactly what it says, 'seek and knock'. It does not mean obey his commandments.
Religion is stuffed full of people ie. Pharisees, who think that strictly following rules gets them to heaven.

Quote
No, man is born in sin.
Yes man is born in sin, but I was talking about reborn sons of God. They have access to their Father's house solely because of birthright, and nothing else.
Quote
Only through his acceptance of the words and teachings of Jesus without compromising it with his own views, philosophies and experiences, can he receive the Holy Spirit.
Sorry Amos, but this is unbiblical religious nonsense. We need the Holy Spirit first, in order to lead us to God's truth, and empower us to deal with sin.
If a man can attain to your demands of perfection before he is filled with the Holy Spirit, what does he need the Holy Spirit for?
I was filled with the Holy Spirit at the start of my walk, not as a reward for successfully completing it!

Quote
But if a man's philosophy is wrong, he will not be able to identify when he has sinned in order so that he can ask for forgiveness. Without acknowledging sin, he will remain unforgiven.
Conviction of sin comes from the Spirit of God working on our consciences, not from knowing all the rules.
Paul makes that clear in Romans.
The Law was given for Law Breakers, as evidence for punishment, and to silence the self righteous who thought they could self perfect.

Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Amos Ministries

  • Pastor Amos
  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80
  • Gender: Male
  • Welcome our New Member
    • Amos Ministries
Re: Gifts Of The Spirit Are NOT Proof That You Have The Holy Spirit
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2021, 08:55:31 PM »
Quote
Amos, you obviously believe you have the Holy Spirit, yet I can guarantee there are many things in your life that disagree with the Lord.
Unless of course, you have attained to perfection.

Me, I was filled with the Holy Spirit back in the 70s, and am daily being filled, but there are still countless areas of my life that are far from right and still needing attention. And it is the Holy Spirit who convicts leads me into righteousness.

You are not understanding what I mean. You must be perfect in understanding. No one can ever be perfect in action. If you are in contradiction to the teachings of Jesus regarding your understanding of  what Jesus stands for, then you do not have his spirit. And I'm not saying this about you directly as I do not know you.

Quote
Asking for his spirit to help us,is the first and foremost act of obedience. To think we can sort our lives out before God sends his spirit is complete deception.

You cannot receive the Spirit without first repenting to God's word in understanding. Then the spirit can enable you to follow through in action.

Quote
'Seek and knock' means exactly what it says, 'seek and knock'. It does not mean obey his commandments.
Religion is stuffed full of people ie. Pharisees, who think that strictly following rules gets them to heaven.

John 14:15 - ?If you love me, keep my commands.

John 14:21 - Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."

John 14:23-24 - Jesus answered and said to him, ?If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24?He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father?s who sent Me.

John 15:10 -  If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father?s commands and remain in his love.

1 John 2:3 - We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands.

1 John 5:3 - In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

2 John 1:6 - 2 John 1:6

You are obviously wrong on this point.

Quote
Yes man is born in sin, but I was talking about reborn sons of God. They have access to their Father's house solely because of birthright, and nothing else.

One is a child of God because he/she believes in the teachings of Jesus.

2 John 1:9 - Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

You are mistaken.

John 8:31 - Jesus said to the people who believed in him, ?You are truly my disciples if you remain faithful to my teachings.

Quote
Sorry Amos, but this is unbiblical religious nonsense. We need the Holy Spirit first, in order to lead us to God's truth, and empower us to deal with sin.
If a man can attain to your demands of perfection before he is filled with the Holy Spirit, what does he need the Holy Spirit for?
I was filled with the Holy Spirit at the start of my walk, not as a reward for successfully completing it!

The Holy Spirit enables us to actually live out Jesus' commandments in action. Repentance is what we need to bring to the table because repentance causes us to understand it. I have proven through many scriptures that it is you who is speaking complete unbiblical nonsense.

Quote
Conviction of sin comes from the Spirit of God working on our consciences

And this spirit works only through the teachings of Jesus and no one else. Meaning this spirit only agrees with Jesus' teachings. So in order to discern whether we are in fact hearing from the Holy Spirit, we must know and understand the teachings of Jesus.

Quote
The Law was given for Law Breakers, as evidence for punishment, and to silence the self righteous who thought they could self perfect.

These people thought they could achieve righteousness without Jesus' teachings. This is not possible and this is indirectly what you are sayin; that you can receive the Holy Spirit by yourself without first knowing the teachings of Jesus thoroughly.

You seem to have edited your original post, but you wrote:
Quote
"I didn't need a bible to tell me killing and stealing was wrong!"
Yes, you did. The whole western world, whether they like it not, were taught Christian values.

Pastor Amos

Offline francis drake

  • Bible Buddies - together
  • ******
  • Posts: 2559
  • Gender: Male
    • Francis Drake Privateer
Re: Gifts Of The Spirit Are NOT Proof That You Have The Holy Spirit
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2021, 10:41:34 PM »
You are not understanding what I mean. You must be perfect in understanding. No one can ever be perfect in action. If you are in contradiction to the teachings of Jesus regarding your understanding of  what Jesus stands for, then you do not have his spirit. And I'm not saying this about you directly as I do not know you.
Lk11v13.Therefore if you, being evil, know to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Father who is in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those asking Him!"
Jesus was very specific, simply ask the Father, and you will receive the Holy Spirit.
You have laden men with all sorts of requirements that God does not require.
Quote
You cannot receive the Spirit without first repenting to God's word in understanding. Then the spirit can enable you to follow through in action.

John 14:15 - ?If you love me, keep my commands.

John 14:21 - Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."

John 14:23-24 - Jesus answered and said to him, ?If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24?He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father?s who sent Me.

John 15:10 -  If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father?s commands and remain in his love.

1 John 2:3 - We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands.

1 John 5:3 - In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,
These verses are talking about disciples, those who already know the Lord, and are therefore irrelevant to the point.
When a man first turns to the Lord, he knows next to nothing of scripture or doctrines. That's when he needs the Holy Spirit, at the very beginning of his walk, to lead and direct him.
Quote
One is a child of God because he/she believes in the teachings of Jesus.
Although it's what most churches teach, it isn't true.
Becoming a child of God has absolutely nothing to do with teachings, but happens when you respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

The OT saints were all born again children of the Lord, yet they knew nothing of the NT Jesus.

The disciples were all born again before Jesus called them, and despite His teachings, consistently refused to accept the notion of Jesus dying for their sins.

I was born again as a child, in a non christian family. I heard God's voice when he spoke to me and told me he lived in my heart. Yet I knew nothing of the bible, or Jesus or NT doctrines till about 10 years later when I met some evangelists. I refused to listen, but finally I realised they were talking about the God I already knew!

My wife, at the age of 3 was repeatedly taken up to heaven like Paul. She was greeted by Jesus, she saw the heavenly city with it's gates of pearl and experienced many things there, including instructions in spiritual warfare. Her mother laughed and thought it was just childish make believe, so she stopped talking about it.

She never read a bible or heard the gospel till she was 18 and joined a youth group. And that's where someone then gave her a bible, which she read from cover to cover, and when she read about the heavenly city, she instantly realised she had been there! Only then did she "become a Christian".
Quote

2 John 1:9 - Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

You are mistaken.

John 8:31 - Jesus said to the people who believed in him, ?You are truly my disciples if you remain faithful to my teachings.
Read your own verse again. Did you see that word 'disciple', that's a completely different subject to being a son of God.
You have to be a son first, long before you might decide to become a disciple.
Quote
The Holy Spirit enables us to actually live out Jesus' commandments in action. Repentance is what we need to bring to the table because repentance causes us to understand it. I have proven through many scriptures that it is you who is speaking complete unbiblical nonsense.
You've proved nothing of the sort.
And facts on the ground also disproves your theology.
Quote
And this spirit works only through the teachings of Jesus and no one else. Meaning this spirit only agrees with Jesus' teachings. So in order to discern whether we are in fact hearing from the Holy Spirit, we must know and understand the teachings of Jesus.
Again this is not true, but completely back to front.
It is the Holy Spirit that quickens scripture to us, not scripture that quickens the spirit. Without the Spirit, scripture is no more than it was to the Pharisees, mere intellectual knowledge.
1Cor2v14But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to understand them, because spiritually they are discerned. 15But he who is spiritual judges all things, but he himself is judged by no one.
Quote
These people thought they could achieve righteousness without Jesus' teachings. This is not possible and this is indirectly what you are sayin; that you can receive the Holy Spirit by yourself without first knowing the teachings of Jesus thoroughly.
Agreed, I am absolutely saying that very thing, that you can receive the Holy Spirit long before "knowing the teachings of Jesus thoroughly!"
I have seen countless people filled and overflowing with the spirit, just as Jesus promised. I have seen tiny children who know nothing, flowing in the spirit and prophesying and praising God in tongues.

You are preaching a typical church gospel, one that maintains the status of the pastor over the Spirit of God, completely contrary to what scripture teaches.

Jesus said in Matthew18v3 3?Truly I tell you,? He said, ?unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
In complete contrast, your teaching says, unless you grow up and learn your bible, you will never enter the kingdom of Heaven.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Amos Ministries

  • Pastor Amos
  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 80
  • Gender: Male
  • Welcome our New Member
    • Amos Ministries
Re: Gifts Of The Spirit Are NOT Proof That You Have The Holy Spirit
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2021, 08:49:40 PM »
Quote
Jesus was very specific, simply ask the Father, and you will receive the Holy Spirit.
You have laden men with all sorts of requirements that God does not require.


How can you receive the Spirit without knowing Jesus?

John 14:23-24 - Jesus answered and said to him, ?If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24?He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father?s who sent
Me.

Quote
These verses are talking about disciples, those who already know the Lord, and are therefore irrelevant to the point.
When a man first turns to the Lord, he knows next to nothing of scripture or doctrines. That's when he needs the Holy Spirit, at the very beginning of his walk, to lead and direct him.

These disciples did not yet have the Holy Spirit and so this is completely relevant to the point. A man needs repentance to understand the scriptures and then the words of Jesus turn a repentant spirit into the Holy Spirit. Water symbolizes a repentant spirit and wine represents the Holy Spirit. This is the meaning behind Jesus changing water into wine.

Quote
Although it's what most churches teach, it isn't true.
Becoming a child of God has absolutely nothing to do with teachings, but happens when you respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

How can you have the conviction of the Holy Spirit withouth first obeying his teachings?

Acts 5:32 - We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

Quote
The OT saints were all born again children of the Lord, yet they knew nothing of the NT Jesus.

This is false.

Luke 10:23-24 - Turning to the disciples, He said privately, ?Blessed are the eyes which see the things you see, 24for I say to you, that many prophets and kings wished to see the things which you see, and did not see them, and to hear the things which you hear, and did not hear them.?

Matthew 13:17 - For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

Matthew 11:11 - Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Quote
The disciples were all born again before Jesus called them, and despite His teachings, consistently refused to accept the notion of Jesus dying
for their sins.

They could not be born again until after Jesus' death, so you are wrong.

John 7:39 - By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Quote
I was born again as a child, in a non christian family. I heard God's voice when he spoke to me and told me he lived in my heart. Yet I knew nothing of the bible, or Jesus or NT doctrines till about 10 years later when I met some evangelists. I refused to listen, but finally I realised they were talking about the God I already knew!

The Holy Spirit only comes with obedience to His word.

Acts 5:32 - We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

What you experienced was repentance.

Quote
My wife, at the age of 3 was repeatedly taken up to heaven like Paul. She was greeted by Jesus, she saw the heavenly city with it's gates of pearl and experienced many things there, including instructions in spiritual warfare. Her mother laughed and thought it was just childish make believe, so she stopped talking about it.

Colossians 2:18 - Take care that no one keeps defrauding you of your prize by delighting in humility and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

Without obedience to the word of God, we must disregard visions. Obedience is key since vision could be from the devil.

2 Corinthians 11:14 - And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

Quote
Read your own verse again. Did you see that word 'disciple', that's a completely different subject to being a son of God.
You have to be a son first, long before you might decide to become a disciple.

You are disregarding 2 John 1:9 - Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

Any many more like this.

Quote
You have to be a son first, long before you might decide to become a disciple.
Complete garbage! A disciple is first. Like in the bible, the disciples became born again on the day of Pentecost. You are arguing with me, yet you do not know these basic things...

Quote
You've proved nothing of the sort.
And facts on the ground also disproves your theology.

Rubbish! You disagree without producing any evidence - just speculation. You have only proven what little you know.

Quote
Again this is not true, but completely back to front.

How will you discern whether what you are hearing is from God unless you can compare it to the teachings of Jesus?

Quote
Without the Spirit, scripture is no more than it was to the Pharisees, mere intellectual knowledge.

No the Pharisees lacked repentance to the teachings of Jesus.

Quote
Agreed, I am absolutely saying that very thing, that you can receive the Holy Spirit long before "knowing the teachings of Jesus thoroughly!"

How can you obtain the Spirit without first knowing Jesus and his teachings? This is not what happened for the disciples. They had to walk with Jesus for 3.5 years before they fully understood Jesus and his teachings. Then they could receive the Holy Spirit.

Quote
I have seen countless people filled and overflowing with the spirit, just as Jesus promised. I have seen tiny children who know nothing, flowing in the spirit and prophesying and praising God in tongues.

What you have see can never be the Holy Spirit unless they first understand the teachings of Jesus. What you have seen is people becoming repentant.

Quote
You are preaching a typical church gospel, one that maintains the status of the pastor over the Spirit of God, completely contrary to what scripture teaches.

No I never said you need a pastor to receive the Holy Spirit. I said you need repentance and to study the scriptures without adding any compromise, exceptions or manipulation in order to receive the Holy Spirit.

Quote
Jesus said in Matthew18v3 3?Truly I tell you,? He said, ?unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
In complete contrast, your teaching says, unless you grow up and learn your bible, you will never enter the kingdom of Heaven.

You have made my point exactly with this scripture. Becoming repentant and willing to change and learn, turning yourself into a blank slate, dependant on God to teach you, like a child - is repentance. This scripture supports what I am saying perfectly. Only fully repentant people can receive the Holy Spirit, not people who mix their own ways with Jesus' teachings. These types of people are not like children. Children don't have an old way of thinking. Everything is new to them. Same goes with the truly repentant person.
Pastor Amos

Welcome to the Biblical and Theology Section of 1Faith

[Raise a Debate] @ 1faith

Your post will be answered shortly

Raise a Debate - by posting bait !
 


SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal