Author Topic: The law  (Read 589 times)

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Online davetaff

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Re: The law
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2020, 02:44:52 PM »
Hello @davetaff,

You and I have discussed the use that the Apostle Paul made of Deuteronomy 25:4 in 1 Corinthians 9:9 and 1 Timothy 5:18 before, to show that the workman is worthy of his hire, and nothing more than that. 

Hi Chris
sorry to be a pain its just this with the ox keeps nagging at the back of my brain why did Paul use it in this way as I have said before Israel is the first Adam of this creation and Christ the last Adam so was the Law given to the man of flesh as written the ox was just an ox but when the Law was applied to the last Adam it becomes spiritual it takes on a different meaning       



* The law was given, by God, through the mediator-ship of Moses, with the nation of Israel, as part of the covenant God made with them at Sinai.

can't argue with that and the law did not go away but Christ gave us a better way to obey the Law through Love and this is not easy by any means we are required to love our enemies and those who hate us and God showed us his Love when he gave his only begotten for us sinners         

* The teaching concerning the the first man - Adam, and of Christ - as the second man is made clear in 1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 5.  It needs no other explanation.

we know Israel is Gods son   Hos_11:1  When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.    so Israel is the first Adam and Christ the last Adam Christ follows the same path as Israel the older brother kills the younger everything is told to us in Genesis needs no other explanation.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris


Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Cariad

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Re: The law
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2020, 04:04:33 PM »
Quote
Cariad:-
Hello @davetaff,
You and I have discussed the use that the Apostle Paul made of Deuteronomy 25:4 in 1 Corinthians 9:9 and 1 Timothy 5:18 before, to show that the workman is worthy of his hire, and nothing more than that.
Hi Chris
sorry to be a pain its just this with the ox keeps nagging at the back of my brain why did Paul use it in this way as I have said before Israel is the first Adam of this creation and Christ the last Adam so was the Law given to the man of flesh as written the ox was just an ox but when the Law was applied to the last Adam it becomes spiritual it takes on a different meaning       
Quote
Cariad:-
* The law was given, by God, through the mediator-ship of Moses, with the nation of Israel, as part of the covenant God made with them at Sinai.
can't argue with that and the law did not go away but Christ gave us a better way to obey the Law through Love and this is not easy by any means we are required to love our enemies and those who hate us and God showed us his Love when he gave his only begotten for us sinners         
Quote
Cariad:-
* The teaching concerning the the first man - Adam, and of Christ - as the second man is made clear in 1 Corinthians 15 and Romans 5.  It needs no other explanation.

we know Israel is Gods son   Hos_11:1  When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.    so Israel is the first Adam and Christ the last Adam Christ follows the same path as Israel the older brother kills the younger everything is told to us in Genesis needs no other explanation.

Love and Peace
Dave

Hi @davetaff,

Thank you for your response, lets take a look at this:-

'Thou shalt not muzzle the ox when he treadeth out the corn.'
(Deut. 25:4) 

* The ox was used to tread the corn, exposing the grain, and the ox was not muzzled, for he was allowed to eat what he needed, it was a way of taking care of the ox's welfare, it was his due.  In Proverbs 12:10a, it says, 'A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast:' , in other words, he takes care of his welfare.

'Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges?
who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof?
or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
Say I these things as a man?
or saith not the law the same also?

.. For it is written in the law of Moses,
.... Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn.
...... Doth God take care for oxen?
........ Or saith He it altogether for our sakes?
For our sakes, no doubt, this is written:
.. that he that ploweth should plow in hope;
.... and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
...... If we have sown unto you spiritual things,
........ is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?'

(1 Corinthians 9:7-11)   

* In 1 Corinthians 9:9 - Paul is having to defend his Apostleship yet again, and he shows that he could have taken of their hospitality and ate and drunk at their expense, for a workman (like himself in the Lord's service) was worthy of his hire, but he did not,  Paul earned his own keep, because he did not want to hinder the work of the gospel.  He preached the gospel without charge, he would not abuse his power (1 Corinthians 9:16-19), for his reward was of God.

* In 1 Timothy 5:17-18, Paul uses the example of Deuteronomy 25:4 again:-

'Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour,
especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
For the scripture saith, 'Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn.'
And, 'The labourer is worthy of his reward'.'

(1 Timothy 5:17-18)   

* As you can see, Dave, the context shows that the law concerning allowing the ox to eat what he wanted of the corn he was treading, was simply being used to show that the one who administered the truth of the gospel, (or spiritual things) was within their rights to expect to share in the 'carnal things' of those they taught, in the form of hospitality, or food and drink, but as in the case of Paul, he waved that away in order to let nothing hinder the work of the gospel, by earning his own living and supplying his own needs.  Though was grateful to those who supplied his need out of love for him (Philippians 4:18-20)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris



 
 

Online davetaff

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Re: The law
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2020, 12:29:06 PM »
Hi Chris
Thanks for your reply can't  fault it a very good explanation makes perfect sense.
I still have that nagging feeling there is more to the law than meets the eye mind I have that feeling about the whole of the OT.

Love and peace
Dave

Online davetaff

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Re: The law
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2020, 01:17:34 PM »
Hi
I would like to return to this scripture.

    To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord : I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.  When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?  Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.  Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
Isaiah 1:11-‬14 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/isa.1.11-14.KJV             


All the above things were required  under the law so why was God not pleased I think it was because Israel had not followed the whole law their heart was not right there was no love for their fellow man he goes on to say.

      And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.  Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;  Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
Isaiah 1:15-‬17 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/isa.1.15-17.KJV     
      bbbb

To follow the law is to love our fellow man if we wish God th hear our prayers  our hearts must be right with God we must wash ourselves  in the water and blood of Christ through baptism to be put to death with the sword of his mouth the word of God  to be reborn into the body of Christ.

Love and Peace
Dave
   
https://bible.com/bible/1/isa.1.11-14.KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/isa.1.15-17.KJV

Offline John

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Re: The law
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2020, 05:03:36 PM »
Missing the point again Dave,
                                      The Israelites were following the rules in the law. But they were doing in as a rite, as something that had to be done. It wasn't that they didn't love other people it as that they didn't love God.

I've made this point before it is how we love God that matters as unless that is right everything else is pointless for us your quote says, God doesn't want unthinking loveless obdience, he want loving obedience that spills over into every aspect of our lives.

Online davetaff

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Re: The law
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2020, 01:36:39 PM »
Hi John
Thank you for your reply  yes Israel did what the law requires but it was of no avail their heart was not right there was no Love in there heart for God or their fellow man.
Our Lord Jesus told us the best way to comply with the law which was.

       Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.   This is the first and great commandment.   And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.   On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Matthew 22:37-‬40 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/mat.22.37-40.KJV   


Its not enough jest to love God we have to love our fellow man as well and not just those who love us our Lord also said.

        But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;   That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.   For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Matthew 5:44-‬46 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/mat.5.44-46.KJV     


So Love is the fulfilment  of the law and this is where Israel failed.

Love and Peace
Dave
https://bible.com/bible/1/mat.22.37-40.KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/mat.5.44-46.KJV

 

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