Author Topic: Genesis  (Read 31346 times)

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Offline eik

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #232 on: April 13, 2021, 06:41:51 AM »
Hi eik,
What message from God are you seeing in Genesis here?  The writing is meant to convey a message to us, so I just wondered how you find God speaking to you spiritually in it?
  Its good to try to understand the word, and we can always find more questions the more we read, but the most important thing is what is God saying to you in this chapter, through the story of Noah?  The study of the word and theology is great, but it is only as great as the extent to which we are spiritually receiving from God in doing it.
Personally I don't get hung up on finding problems and trying to answer all the questions, because that isn't the main purpose of the Bible.  Rather its a message to man to restore and redeem, him from his sinful state to have a union with God.
The Titanic may have accommodated 3,300 people, but the most important difference between the Titanic and the Ark is that the Titanic sank and the Ark saved and redeemed those who were on board - and this is the underlying message here.  Are we building our lives spiritually on the Lord Jesus as our anchor, as Lord of what we say, think and do,....or are we building our life upon the sand, that Jesus said the storm would wash away?...or the Titanic (man's work) that sinks?
Hi DavidaBrother

The message of Noah is one of salvation in exchange for personal righteousness and faith, and shows the plan of salvation from the dawn of civilization. I agree that Noah prophecies the last day, when the believers of God's household will be saved. And I refer to the Philippian Jailer Act 16:34 "And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house."

How often it is that the bible only mentions the heads of households in the OT, or the notable people. Here "with all his house" is specifically added by the NT, but I wonder how many times it is omitted in the OT, and where it is implied.

Gen 12:4 "So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran."

It is only in a subsequent verse we learn that others went with him.

And then you might have supposed that in Gen 12:10 "And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine was grievous in the land" the bible is referring just to Abrams' deliverance, but it obviously includes all his servants and all his wife's servants, and which is partly why he came to the notice to Pharaoh

I agree that we can distinguish between the historical detail and the message, and that the message, e.g. in 1 Pet 3:20 was concerned with the teaching of salvation and that it will ultimately only apply to a very few souls.

It's interesting that the Titanic was named after a line of ancient gods, "titans."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titans

Yet it is even more significant that the titans occupied even in ancient mythology the same place as demons do today.

From wiki:
Quote
"The Titans, as a group, represent a pre-Olympian order.[27] Hesiod uses the expression "the former gods" (theoi proteroi) in reference to the Titans.[28] They were the banished gods, who were no longer part of the upper world.[29] Rather they were the gods who dwelt underground in Tartarus,[30] and as such, they may have been thought of as "gods of the underworld", who were the antithesis of, and in opposition to, the Olympians, the gods of the heavens.[31] Hesiod called the Titans "earth-born" (chthonic),[32] and in the Homeric Hymn to Apollo, Hera prays to the Titans "who dwell beneath the earth", calling on them to aid her against Zeus, just as if they were chthonic spirits.[33] In a similar fashion, in the Iliad, Hera, upon swearing an oath by the underworld river Styx, "invoked by name all the gods below Tartarus, that are called Titans" as witnesses.[34]"


The titans occupy the same place in ancient mythology that the fallen angels occupy. Contrast:

From Wiki
Quote
After being overthrown in the Titanomachy, Cronus and his fellow vanquished Titans were cast into Tartarus:

    That is where the Titan gods are hidden under murky gloom by the plans of the cloud-gatherer Zeus, in a dank place, at the farthest part of huge earth. They cannot get out, for Poseidon has set bronze gates upon it, and a wall is extended on both sides.

with

Jde 1:6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

I guess the lesson of the Titanic is to warn the rich against consorting with demons, and things done in their honour or in their name.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titans

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #233 on: April 13, 2021, 11:21:29 AM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply I would prefer to stick to the KJV or the ESV
You said.

Quote
     Well OK, but let's take the story of Adam and Eve. Then suddenly we have Cain founding a city, and marrying. So must have been more men and women around. And I don't buy the theory that he married his sister, because that wouldn't be consistent with the moral law. God doesn't change     

I have given my explanation of this before which is

  Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good             

My contention is human being's were included in everything that creeps on the ground so there were quite a few humans on the planet when God said

     Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth     

So the words our image and let them make perfect sense the word man here should be thought of as mankind.
Now we can take Israel and Christ as examples of what God would do as he did with Israel to take a people for himself out of the world as he took Israel out of Egypt and he will take a people for himself out of the world at
Christ's his second coming.
So the first Adam would have been created in the same way as Israel and Christ.
So the first Adam was contaminated by the angles that came down and Adam was not what God intended him to be and so he was destroyed in the flood.
As for cain he was sent out from the commonwealth  that was Adam and took his wife from those in the world who were not a part of Adam and with them he built a city.
Thats what I believe what do you believe.

Love and Peace
Dave




Offline eik

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #234 on: April 13, 2021, 01:01:19 PM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply I would prefer to stick to the KJV or the ESV
You said.

I have given my explanation of this before which is

  Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good             

My contention is human being's were included in everything that creeps on the ground so there were quite a few humans on the planet when God said

     Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth     

So the words our image and let them make perfect sense the word man here should be thought of as mankind.
I don't agree. "Our" as in "Our image" refers to God in his counsel of angels. So you're saying that because "our" is plural, Adam infers a plurality. Ultimately it does. But initially there was only one Adam, as Gen 2 makes clear. Rom 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world."

The Hebrew word for man is "Adam" not homosapiens. Adam is defined in Gen 2 to mean Adam, the first man who walked in God's Counsel. Adam is thus a special kind of man, a godly man. Later on, "Adam" is used to include his descendants by context, as you have put it the commonwealth of Adam, but which was initially a tribe whom Adam ruled, but extended to those who called on the name of the Lord. That is why Jesus is the "last Adam." If Adam merely referred scientifically to the species of homo-sapiens, the phrase "last Adam" would be utterly meaningless.

That is why I question whether "man" (which today denotes a scientific species) is the right translation in Gen 1:26. I think Adam in Gen 1:26 should be transliterated as "Adam" because it doesn't have an English equivalent word. It includes a religious connotation than "mankind" doesn't.

Adam and his descendants are inferred to be God's people. This is why Noah was righteous.

Now we can take Israel and Christ as examples of what God would do as he did with Israel to take a people for himself out of the world as he took Israel out of Egypt and he will take a people for himself out of the world at  Christ's his second coming.
Christ's second coming is the resurrection and the clothing of the perishable with the imperishable.

Israel is really just an expansion of the numbers of the people of God, from a family group or tribe to a whole peoples and government.

So the first Adam would have been created in the same way as Israel and Christ.
So the first Adam was contaminated by the angles that came down and Adam was not what God intended him to be and so he was destroyed in the flood.
It's true that some of Adam's direct descendants would have been killed, but Noah was not. Some of Adam's descendants may have travelled so far from the flood area as to escape the flood completely. The flood was clearly local to the Persian gulf area but extended very far inland. 

As for cain he was sent out from the commonwealth  that was Adam and took his wife from those in the world who were not a part of Adam and with them he built a city.
I agree, that he went out from Adam's trible.

Thats what I believe what do you believe.
So we have faith originating with Adam, his family and his tribe (pre-written code), then a whole people i.e. Israel, descended from Adam through Noah and their tribe (written code), everyone given the opportunity to participate on the face of the earth (under Christ).

"Image of God" refers to everyone with faith, and even everyone who has been exposed to the practice of human morality handed down via Adam. It may still be of an uncertain nature in semi-civilized and isolated tribes who don't yet have any choice and still exist in the anti-diluvian age. However I guess we are obliged to treat them as capable of human morality. I am thinking of the spear men of the Indian North Sentinel Island (Andaman and Nicobar Islands). These kinds of isolated groups can quickly die out on contact with advanced humanity due to inability to resist diseases. I am sure they make for a good study of what the world was like in the time of Adam and Noah.

Image of God can also be self-derogated from by law breakers, and that is why the law of Moses allows them to be put to death.

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #235 on: April 14, 2021, 10:26:22 AM »
Hi David
Thank you for your reply 229 I can agree with what you say if what we believe Leads us to Christ then that's what matters most that we love God through Jesus Christ that we love our neighbours and our enemies how we arrive at that goal is secondary.
I have wondered do all roads lead to Christ we have so many denominations but the central point to all of them is the cross of Christ and his resurrection so are the scriptures designed that way to bring as many as possible by any means possible to the knowledge of the truth.
After all God will not judge what we believe but what's in our hearts and what he will look for is Love.
As you may have seen I have some strange ideas about creation and you have your ideas and eik has his but if what we believe leads someone to Christ dose it matter how they get there.
So like I say are the scriptures designed that way to bring as many as possible to God.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline DavidaBrother

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #236 on: April 14, 2021, 10:49:00 AM »
Hi Dave, thanks for your response.  One of my first jobs, that I ever had in life, was caring for severely mentally and physically disabled people.  Some of them were in diapers and lived the kind of life some people would describe as "vegetables".  Many could not even understand speech let alone actually speak themselves.  I used to stand by the bedside of these people and pray for them to be healed.  None were.  I had only recently received Christ and been radically changed inside, having an incredible peace, love and joy, that was not only unexplainable but indescribable.  I had to accept that none of these people would ever understand the gospel of Christ, even if they ever heard it!  They had no chance of ever reading, let alone reading the Bible and would certainly never understand main doctrine, let alone theology!  Was God going to punish them and send them to Hell for not receiving Him?  I realised that God does not judge us by this, but that his judgement is based upon his Love and our response to it if we are able to respond to it!  So in my view, God's word and judgement goes far beyond anything that we can actually define and understand, from a plain reading of scripture.  In God's eyes, we are like those people I looked after, in limited intelligence, compared to God.  But we have the ability to respond to God and his word in a way that those people don't.  I believe it is our response to His Love, that will be the measure by which we are judged, both now and in the resurrection.  It will not be our ability to understand the Bible or theology, but our rather our trust in the One who is the Author and our response to Him.
  That said, it is a great interest to me, to try to understand the Bible and its complexity, though I quite acknowledge that I can only grasp a small or limited part of it.  I hope I can learn from you and others here also.
God bless,

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #237 on: April 14, 2021, 11:36:20 AM »
Hi eik
Thank you for your reply you said

Quote
    I don't agree. "Our" as in "Our image" refers to God in his counsel of angels. So you're saying that because "our" is plural, Adam infers a plurality. Ultimately it does. But initially there was only one Adam, as Gen 2 makes clear. Rom 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world       

Yes of course you are right there was only one Adam and he would have been created by God in the same way Israel was and Christ at his second comming was created there would be the head as Moses and Christ were and there would be the woman for Moses it was the priesthood for Christ it was his church and bride.

       So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh. And the rib that the Lord God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man.
Genesis 2:21-‬22 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/gen.2.21-22.ESV       


This is the same as the creation of the church from the water and the blood that came from the side of our Lord.

So the first Adam and the last Adam would be created in the same way.

Quote
   Christ's second coming is the resurrection and the clothing of the perishable with the imperishable.

Israel is really just an expansion of the numbers of the people of God, from a family group or tribe to a whole peoples and government           

I can agree with that the only thing I would say is instead of government I would say monarchy under the King of Kings.

Quote
      It's true that some of Adam's direct descendants would have been killed, but Noah was not. Some of Adam's descendants may have travelled so far from the flood area as to escape the flood completely. The flood was clearly local to the Persian gulf area but extended very far inland       

Again you are adding words to scripture that aren't there all we need to know is that God destroyed everything  he wanted to destroy keep it simple.

Image of God means being in the body of Christ

Love and Peace
Dave
https://bible.com/bible/59/gen.2.21-22.ESV

Offline DavidaBrother

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #238 on: April 14, 2021, 12:05:50 PM »
Dave, I also want to say that the more I read and understand of scripture, the more I stand aghast at it!  The implications of scripture go far beyond a superficial reading of it.  What do you think of the following? :
If we take a Timeline and compare it with a Number line with Zero in the middle, negative numbers to the left and positive numbers to the right, the appearance of Christ being approximately at Zero in the Timeline; 2021 being towards the extreme right of the Timeline; and 3000-6000 BC being the extreme left of the Timeline:
  In a number line, all the negative numbers to the left of Zero are in relation to zero, just as all the positive numbers to the right of the Zero are in relation to zero also.
 Christ is crucified for our sins at about AD 30 and resurrects. 
All those who believe in Christ for their Redemption obtain THROUGH FAITH in his name by his Blood, AFTER the crucifixion are saved.
All those who believe in the Messiah for their Redemption obtain THROUGH FAITH in Him BEFORE the appearance of Christ and his crucifixion are saved also.
....why is this?   It is because Christ is The Word and God already decided that the Messiah would be the Lamb slain from the Foundation of the World.  This means that his Redemption was already available BEFORE Christ came physically in the flesh, because in God's mind and in God's faith, Christ was already crucified! - else why is he the Lamb slain from the Foundation of the World?  The faith exercised to the Right of Christ in AD 30, is in relation to Christ, no matter how far to the right on the Timeline it is.
The faith exercised to the Left of Christ in AD 30, is in relation to Christ, no matter how far to the left on the Timeline it is.
The only difference between left and right of the Timeline, is in the Revelation of Christ, NOT in his existence as an object of faith!
  I think all would agree that God is perfect - if he isn't then he can't be God.  If God is perfect, his justice must be perfect.  If his justice is perfect then his Redemption must be equally obtainable before Christ came, as after he came - otherwise He unfairly applied Redemption only to those people he seemingly arbitrarily gave it to after Jesus came.
Abraham was reckoned to be righteous by faith.  In faith Abraham and Moses and David all looked in faith to the Messiah and though they did not understand it, for their Redemption.
  Again, I throw this out for you!  I could be wrong, but if I am, why?

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #239 on: April 15, 2021, 03:43:02 PM »
Hi David
Thank you for your reply what came to mind was this from St Paul

      12  For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

 13  (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

 14  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

 15  Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) note note

 16  In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel     


I can agree that its through faith we will be saved but looking at what Paul says above the law still has a purpose I think this may need more though maybe  a separate thread.

The other thing you mentioned  which caught my attention was.

Quote
     Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

  Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.       

The question being if all Gods works were finished from the foundation of the world would mean that everything we read in scripture was done and dusted and could not be altered.
So everything we read in Genesis is everything  God would do from the beginning  to the end of revelations so the creation account can be read after revelations and it would be the history of what God has done.
I can agree that there is a hight and depth to scripture that is vast but we should not add to scripture but stick to the words we have.

Love and Peace
Dave

 

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