Author Topic: Genesis  (Read 31341 times)

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Offline DavidaBrother

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #224 on: April 11, 2021, 01:24:56 PM »
Thank you Dave for your welcome and fellowship.  It is good to share the Word of God and to help one another, especially when we are living today in a time of  unprecedented attack on the Bible and a world rife with deceptions in every place imaginable!  And how easy it is to fall into error on things, as I myself can testify!
I don't think there has ever been a time when it is more important to learn, know, communicate and defend the Bible and its message, than today, as anyone familiar with the social media will know!  Therefore I think forums like this one, can play an important role and be a helpful resource to all of us?
   I think it is helpful to read the expert on scripture, Jesus's words about Noah, in the passage Luke 17:24-37 >>
"For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day. 25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot?they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, 29 but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all? 30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. 35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.?[j] 37 And they said to him, ?Where, Lord?? He said to them, ?Where the corpse[k] is, there the vultures[l] will gather.? >>
 I think this passage tells us about the event of the flood being similar to the future coming, of the Son of Man.  In His coming, there will be a sign right across the sky which will demonstrate the power and majesty of God.  Similarly in the covenant of Noah, there was a sign of a rainbow across the sky as a reminder of God's covenant with Noah, demonstrating his authority and faithfulness.  Tragically, as in the flood when men were oblivious to God and didn't regard Him, so too in the coming of the Son of Man, it seems men will be disregarding God and their accountability to Him.  Those who elsewhere in the gospels are described as the virgins with oil, will be ready to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, as were those who entered the Ark!  In Luke, "two women will be grinding together - one will be taken and the other left" - and here we see a separation of the "sheep and the goats", according to God's judgement of the righteousness of people.  Since Jesus said that the coming of the Son of Man will be like the Ark narrative, then I think we should safely understand that the inference is that not only was Noah righteous, but his his family who he was the head and teacher of, were also.  Since Noah preached to the community, we are safe to assume that this infers he taught his own family to regard God.  I do believe in the specific words of God, but from my perspective, I'm always needing to remind myself that beyond the specific literal words of the text, there are inferences which we should take into account also, like this.
  If the foregoing is correct as I see it, then yes this does suggest that no one else except Noah and his family were considered worthy before God to receive God's grace ("Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord" - Genesis 6:8, using the Hebrew word: חֵן chen for 'grace', which has the meanings: (kindness, favor) or objectively (beauty): - favour, grace[-ious], pleasant, precious, [well-] favoured.).  I think the message here is that Noah wasn't perfect, but that he pleased God and God favoured him and his family, whereas the rest of mankind displeased God to the point of grieving Him, because "every thought of their heart was wickedness").  It is easy to forget that in Genesis 2, that God had close intimacy with his created Adam and Eve, but this stands in stark contrast to the utter disregard for God as we see in the days of Noah and will see in the days of the 'coming of the Son of Man'!
  I'm not sure if I am reading your comment correctly, but in your last line you seem to be raising the question as to why the world had to 'wait' for Jesus to come to restore the broken image of God in man??  If I'm right in understanding your 'contention' here, then I think that is because it is difficult for humanity to grasp the nature of the Messiah!  I can't pretend to understand the nature of the Messiah fully and nor can any of us, but I do believe this:-  It goes far beyond the standard narrative that most of us take for granted!  In most of our human understanding of Jesus, we think of Him being born 2000 years ago, but we understand that he is before all things and created all things, as a matter of doctrinal belief.  Yet few of us can grasp that because he is eternal and was "slain before the foundation of the world" for the redemption of humanity and to restore man to the image of God,...that the required faith which for us is "post resurrection" to receive that redemption, was also available by faith "pre-resurrection", otherwise Abraham would not be considered righteous before God.  This means that all those who obtained through faith, redemption in the Messiah before his coming, will be joined by those who obtain redemption by faith, after Jesus's resurrection on earth.
  [Caveat: as I said, I don't know all things and I'm open to be corrected here, but this is currently my perspective of the matter which you have quite understandably raised.]

Offline eik

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #225 on: April 11, 2021, 04:34:18 PM »
In summary, if men did "begin to call upon the name of the Lord", then by the time of Noah, this active pursuit of God must have come to an end apart from Noah and his family - hence God destroying all other people.
The references to Noah, Abraham etc often leave out the fact (a) that these people were potentates on the earth, (b) had loads of servants. Thus we learn only in one place that Abraham could command 318 armed men from which it is estimated that he had a following of 2000 persons, men, women, children and the slaves he had (12:16; 15:2; 16:1).
https://www.studylight.org/language-studies/difficult-sayings.html?article=509

Similarly with Noah, whose retinue could well have been massive, given that he was well established in the land. Also see the size of the ark (rather large for 8 people). It would have taken hundreds or thousands of people to built it.

So I could reckon that Noah could also have had up to circa 2000 people on the ark with him which the bible just doesn't mention, given the ark's dimenions of 450 x 75 x 45ft, which compares with 850 x 92 x 64 for the Titanic.
https://www.studylight.org/language-studies/difficult-sayings.html?article=509

Offline DavidaBrother

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #226 on: April 11, 2021, 06:53:17 PM »
Hello to you.  Well that's an interesting idea.  And as you say, Noah could have employed people from the local population - these are practical possibilities.  We aren't told that however.  In Genesis 7:7 "And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons' wives with him went into the ark to escape the waters of the flood." - it is very specific about the extent of those who escaped in the ark and in 7:23 "He blotted out every living thing that was on the face of the ground, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens. They were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those who were with him in the ark."
  I respect other people's views, but for me, the most important thing about Genesis, is the message it is giving us.  Personally, I'm not hung up on the most literal interpretation of early Genesis and I don't view early Genesis as a science book or precise history book.  Rather, my perspective is that God is giving us a profound message that is instructive in theology and redemption for mankind, in which from the earliest times God is a God of Covenants which he has provided for man progressively over time.  God's message and voice in Genesis, is for me, far more important than a literal interpretation of the early chapters.
  So my perspective is that in Genesis we see God looking for a people who will seek Him, follow Him and obey Him, who will have faith in Him - followed by a dividing of people separated for Him - and we see this same theme repeated over and over again in the Bible, for the purpose of the Redemption of all things in the Messiah.

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #227 on: April 12, 2021, 01:27:49 PM »
The references to Noah, Abraham etc often leave out the fact (a) that these people were potentates on the earth, (b) had loads of servants. Thus we learn only in one place that Abraham could command 318 armed men from which it is estimated that he had a following of 2000 persons, men, women, children and the slaves he had (12:16; 15:2; 16:1).
https://www.studylight.org/language-studies/difficult-sayings.html?article=509

Similarly with Noah, whose retinue could well have been massive, given that he was well established in the land. Also see the size of the ark (rather large for 8 people). It would have taken hundreds or thousands of people to built it.

So I could reckon that Noah could also have had up to circa 2000 people on the ark with him which the bible just doesn't mention, given the ark's dimenions of 450 x 75 x 45ft, which compares with 850 x 92 x 64 for the Titanic.

Hi eik
Complete fabrications with no support in scripture adding words to Gods word is not a good thing thats why we have so many denominations.

Love and Peace
Dave
https://www.studylight.org/language-studies/difficult-sayings.html?article=509

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #228 on: April 12, 2021, 02:21:31 PM »
Hi David
Thank you for your post 224 for myself I believe that only Noah was righteous there is no mention in scripture of any of his family being righteous.
Yes you right about the state of the world just before the flood and the state of the world at the coming of our Lord Noah's  world was destroyed with water this world will be destroyed with fire our God is a consuming fire.

      Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen       

As for Cain and Able the older brother kills the younger brother as I see it it mirrors what happens after the flood Israel the older brother kills Christ the younger brother when Eve gives birth to seth a replacement for Able mirrors  the resurrection.
Genesis is the story of the creation of man in the image of God which is Jesus Christ at his second coming Chtrist is the Head the church is his body he is the man the church is his woman.

The creation account in Genesis can be applied to Israel and Christ.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline DavidaBrother

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #229 on: April 12, 2021, 05:26:06 PM »
Hi Dave, Well that's ok to believe 'Noah was the only righteous person'.  Taking the text literally, word for word, that would be the conclusion that you would indeed come to.  I respect your view.  I take a slightly different approach to my reading, but try not to be licentious.  In my approach, I see a great deal that is in the text of the Bible, that is inferred, but which may not be specifically stated overtly in words. In my approach, I try to understand what the author is expecting the reader to draw from his words, rather than simply the words themselves as written.  As there are many different genres of writing in the Bible, I try to be aware of which genre or type of writing I am reading, aswell.  A particular example of this is when the writing is in a poetic style, such as Psalms and Isaiah.  I find that the poetic style of Isaiah is infinitely more powerful in conveying thoughts, than the prose style, although both of these styles expect the reader to "read between the lines".
  In modern day speech, American conversation being one example, often things are spoken, where the hearer is expected to draw conclusions that are not specifically mentioned in exact words - and if we only understood the actual words spoken, we would probably miss 90% of what was actually being conveyed by the speaker.  Something like this also occurs in the Bible very frequently.  This is why I said that I believe the writer is inferring that Noah, who taught/preached to the community, will have taught his own family, none of whom apparently argued with him and didn't get "on board" with him in the Ark.  (I think if they thought he had 'lost his marbles', then they would probably had said: "Right that's it!  You've gone too far this time - I've had it with you and your God!"  - a well known film comes to mind about a modern day Noah!)
Secondly, for me, Jesus's words are authoritative, in that he said the coming of the Son of Man will be like the days of Noah with the Ark and the Flood where 'the sheep and the goats' are divided with only 'the sheep' being saved....one is taken and the other left!  ie - sinners do not stand in the congregation of the righteous and nor will they be in Heaven.  My reading of this is that Jesus was likening the Ark, to His coming selection of those who are deemed worthy to enter his Kingdom, while those who are not are left out and that those who were deemed unworthy or unrighteous would not be permitted to enter the Ark.  This would be my reasons for reading it the way I do, but I quite understand that this is not how you understand it.
   Your ideas about Cain and Able and Christ are interesting.  I think Abel's blood cries from the ground - but so does Jesus's blood and there is in this picture, a definite type of theme of justice - Abel's blood demanding justice and Jesus's blood paying for the redemption of sinners.  Abel is a shadow/figure of the Christ to come.  Abel offers the best sacrifice he can - Jesus offers himself as the sacrifice - their blood is recognised by the Father and compels a response from Him. Abel's blood is regarded in faithfulness by God and Jesus's blood is the New Covenant of redemption.
  Thanks for being able to discuss passages - its encouraging - and God bless,

Offline eik

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #230 on: April 12, 2021, 07:44:33 PM »
Hi eik
Complete fabrications with no support in scripture adding words to Gods word is not a good thing thats why we have so many denominations.

Love and Peace
Dave
Well OK, but let's take the story of Adam and Eve. Then suddenly we have Cain founding a city, and marrying. So must have been more men and women around. And I don't buy the theory that he married his sister, because that wouldn't be consistent with the moral law. God doesn't change.

Now a similar thing is recounted in the Book of Jubilees (considered canonical by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church as well as Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jews). In the Book of Jubilees (160?150 BC) the names of the wives of Noah, Shem, Ham and Japheth are as follows:

    Wife of Noah ? Emzara
    Wife of Shem ? Sedeqetelebab
    Wife of Ham ? Na'eltama'uk
    Wife of Japheth ? 'Adataneses

It adds that the three sons each built a city named after their wives. How do you suppose that the three sons are going to build cities unless they had servants to help them?

How would you personally build a city? And you've omitted the circumstantial evidence of the size of the ark. That is very good circumstantial evidence of more than 8 people being saved. You don't need a boat half the size of the titanic for eight people, even if you do take some animals along with you. The titanic accomodated 3,300 persons.




Offline DavidaBrother

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #231 on: April 13, 2021, 12:17:06 AM »
Hi eik,
What message from God are you seeing in Genesis here?  The writing is meant to convey a message to us, so I just wondered how you find God speaking to you spiritually in it?
  Its good to try to understand the word, and we can always find more questions the more we read, but the most important thing is what is God saying to you in this chapter, through the story of Noah?  The study of the word and theology is great, but it is only as great as the extent to which we are spiritually receiving from God in doing it.
Personally I don't get hung up on finding problems and trying to answer all the questions, because that isn't the main purpose of the Bible.  Rather its a message to man to restore and redeem, him from his sinful state to have a union with God.
The Titanic may have accommodated 3,300 people, but the most important difference between the Titanic and the Ark is that the Titanic sank and the Ark saved and redeemed those who were on board - and this is the underlying message here.  Are we building our lives spiritually on the Lord Jesus as our anchor, as Lord of what we say, think and do,....or are we building our life upon the sand, that Jesus said the storm would wash away?...or the Titanic (man's work) that sinks?

 

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