Author Topic: Genesis  (Read 4398 times)

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Offline Deborah

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #104 on: August 09, 2020, 07:55:19 PM »
Replies #101 and #102

Hello @Deborah,

I never thought I would have to ask you for a scriptural basis for the beliefs you enter, but I must, for where is all this coming from?  It all seems like a story from a children's book of fantasy.  Where has Deborah gone? First davetaff and now you!! On the strength of your reply I will either leave the forum or stay, for I don't want to be in this position any more.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

What exactly is the problem, Chris? Is it that I don't believe that the early chapters of Genesis were meant to be taken literally? I don't believe that the book of Revelation should be taken literally, either!

My interpretation may be personal (I don't necessarily expect anyone here to agree with me), but I don't think it is contradicted by anything else in Scripture, or by science. I have been reading quite a lot around Genesis during the last few years, and actually I've said nothing original - it has all been discussed by theologians more expert than me, and even if you disagree, it shouldn't be dismissed as "children's fantasy".

If you have any specific issues, I'm happy to discuss them.
"Blessed is the one who always trembles before God,
but whoever hardens their heart falls into trouble." (Proverbs 28:14)

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #105 on: August 10, 2020, 12:55:54 PM »
Hi Chris
You said
Quote
   
Perhaps you would show me where it says this in the word of God itself, Dave. The only references I have to muzzling the ox in the law is in Deut.25:4, and it does not say anything there to indicate that it should be used in the way you have used it.           

I am only saying what St paul said concerning this law which was.

    For it is written in the Law of Moses, ?You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.? Is it for oxen that God is concerned? Does he not certainly speak for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop.
1 Corinthians 9:9-‬10 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.9.9-10.ESV       


Paul says this law was written for him and those with him this begs the question how should we see all the other laws.

You said
Quote
     
* The Olive Tree represents Israel's religious privileges.  What you say is nonsense             
]

Do you have any scripture to support this statement.

Quote
    The Lord Jesus Christ is the subject of all Scripture.  However Moses wrote of the Lord prophetically in Deuteronomy 18:15-19, see also Acts 3:22 and Acts 7:37.

This is the end for me, Dave, I will not respond to any more of the products of your imagination       

If Christ is the subject of all scripture then the creation account in Genesis can well include him.

If what I say is only my imagination  then it should be easy to disprove it with  scripture.

Love and Peace
Dave
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.9.9-10.ESV

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #106 on: August 10, 2020, 01:53:38 PM »
I've had a very busy week, so I've fallen behind you a bit. Will try to catch up...

Genesis 2:8-14

The universe is God's Temple. And just as the temple in Jerusalem had outer courts and an inner sanctuary, so does the universe. Eden was the inner sanctuary, the 'holy of holies' where God's presence was manifested (see Genesis 3:8 ). Here was complete order; outside was (relative) chaos.

Where was Eden? On a mountain-top, apparently (as four rivers flow from it inn different directions); but the geography bears no relationship to the earth as we know it - the Tigris and Euphrates are in Mesopotamia, but Cush is in Africa! So this is evidently symbolic: Eden is the source of all life, goodness and prosperity in the world.

Humans are mortal (made from dust); but inside the sanctuary (Eden) is the source of immortality - represented by the tree of life. The tree of knowledge is also representative: of the moral choice that is fundamental to being in the image of God.



Hi Deborah
Nice to see you back we can agree on that Genesis should not be read literally  you said about the four rivers I think you'll  find that they started  out as one river that divided into four river's I have wondered if this can be seen spiritually the first river is the word of God which  gets divided by mankind.

The tree of knowledge  is Israel only they had law which gave them the knowledge  of good and evil the tree of life is our Lord Jesus Christ direct access to him was denied  us when he was taken into heaven but he will come again.

Genesis 2:15-17
I can agree with you that there were lots more humans on earth in those times man in the image of God can include large numbers Israel is a good example.

Genesis 2:15-17
The creation of the woman if we are both right and there were lots of humans in the world then it stands  to reason there where plenty of woman
The story of the creation  of the woman is very simular to the crucifixion  of our Lord and the creation of his bride the Church so we can conclude that the woman can consist of millions of individuals mirrors Israel priesthood.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Deborah

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #107 on: August 11, 2020, 05:04:12 PM »
Should the early chapters of Genesis be taken "literally"?

This is an important question. It's important to realise, though, that Christians have always disagreed over the answer! (By "always", I mean going back to the early Church Fathers). Augustine of Hippo struggled with literal readings of Genesis, pointing out that light (Genesis 1:3) could not have preceded in time the creation of the sun (Genesis 1:14,15). And this was long before the science of evolution!

It could be that the non-literal interpreters of Genesis 1-11 are 'selling out' to modern science too quickly. But more and more theologians are exploring this, and it isn't just because of the science. There are clues even in Genesis itself that the early chapters are different from the 'family histories' of Abraham and his descendants, which make up the bulk of the book - in other words, that they belong to a different genre of writing and therefore need to be interpreted differently. The creation story in Genesis 1, for example, follows a pattern found throughout ancient Middle Eastern cultures (although it also shows significant differences). This is why Bible scholars are coming round to the view that the earth was originally intended to be God's temple, with human beings as His priests. (The fact that it was created in seven days fits into this sacred pattern; similarly, the Tabernacle was made in seven months, and Solomon's Temple was built in seven years).

The stories of Abraham's family were presumably handed down orally through the generations until written down by Moses. This should indeed be classified as 'history' - but we cannot therefore assume that chapters 1-11 are in the same category. Abraham is firmly rooted in both geography and history; the places where he lived are known to us, and we are given enough cultural detail to date him to around 2100 BC. We cannot say the same for Noah. Nor can we locate the Garden of Eden, despite the geographical information given; two of the rivers named are on different continents (Genesis 2:10-14)! It's a bit like looking at one of those old maps, where America is missing but Australia fills the southern hemisphere, and recognisable places are mixed up with statements of "here be dragons" on uncharted territory.

The stories in the first part of Genesis also have a very different 'feel' to those in the later chapters in the way they are narrated. The characters frequently have conversations with God (or with the devil, in Eve's case), but rarely talk to each other. When they do speak, most of the recorded dialogue takes the form of prophetic pronouncements or 'oracles' (e.g. Genesis 2:23; 4:23,24). This is not 'real life', but commentary on it.

A lot of people do assume that a non-literal interpretation equates to 'believing that it never actually happened'. Not so. For example: I'm convinced that the Fall was a real event in the early history of the human race. But if we had been there at the time, would we have been able to see a literal tree and hear a snake talk? Not necessarily. It's quite possible that the whole thing, like all temptations, took place inside Adam's and Eve's heads. But the way the story is told brings out the issues much more clearly than a 'literal' telling would - and is utterly unforgettable into the bargain.
"Blessed is the one who always trembles before God,
but whoever hardens their heart falls into trouble." (Proverbs 28:14)

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #108 on: August 12, 2020, 01:34:21 PM »
Hi Deborah
Thank you for an interesting  post if we should not take Genesis literally  what dose it mean.
For myself I believe one can take a litaral view if we put it in to a different time frame and start with Noah after the flood and take the following words of Isaiah literally.

    declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ?My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,?
Isaiah 46:10 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/isa.46.10.ESV       


To me this means in Genesis God tells us the beginning and end of creation the end is man in the image of God which is Jesus Christ at his second comming God uses Genesis as a template  to do this starting with Noah then following the Genesis account applying it to humanity.
Consider day four the creation of sun moon and stars it makes no sense  but if we see the sun as representing our Lord Jesus  the light of the world the moon the Church the reflected light of the sun ( the words of St Paul come to mind we see in a mirror  darkly ) the stars are the children of Christ and  his Church.
This happend 4000 years after the flood 4 days.

Love and Peace
Dave


https://bible.com/bible/59/isa.46.10.ESV

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #109 on: August 15, 2020, 11:51:53 AM »
Hi
So how dose God tell us the end from the beginning dose he use parables is Genesis A set of parables using  people a good example would be Cain and Able.
We know that Israel is Gods son as is Christ which  of course makes them brothers the older brother Israel kills the younger brother Jesus.
Cain is banished from Eden to the land of Nod Israel in 70 AD ceased to be a nation and became wonder's  of the earth.
Then God replaces Able with Seth which represents the resurrection through Seths son Enosh people began to call on the name of the lord can mean through the son of the father men started to call on the name of the Lord.

Of course if Genesis is a set of parables it removes the necessity  to try to equate it with evolution.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Deborah

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #110 on: August 15, 2020, 12:09:13 PM »

Of course if Genesis is a set of parables it removes the necessity  to try to equate it with evolution.

Love and Peace
Dave

But if Genesis is only a set of parables, it tells us nothing about our origins - or about why we are estranged from God.
"Blessed is the one who always trembles before God,
but whoever hardens their heart falls into trouble." (Proverbs 28:14)

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis
« Reply #111 on: August 15, 2020, 03:42:16 PM »
But if Genesis is only a set of parables, it tells us nothing about our origins - or about why we are estranged from God.

Hi Deborah
Thank you for reply I don't think the origins of life are in question Genesis 1 takes care of that God is the creator and giver of life Genesis 1 is the creation of all things the only thing that spoils it is the word day.
what I am trying to say is when our Lord came into the world he taught the people in parables and we know  all things are created for him and through him so would he from the beginning teach us through parables there are quite a few stories in genesis which  can be likened to later times especially to the history of Israel and to Christ.

Love and Peace
Dave

 

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