Author Topic: Do angels have free will?  (Read 2186 times)

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Tes Johnson

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Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #64 on: May 27, 2020, 12:15:50 AM »

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It's the old argument that that it was about the King of Tyre..

Hi @strobe   love your username BTW...

What you are saying is that  God  uses satan...

I'm not sure that God ever intended for life to be what it is like now..


You may argue that God "knows all things"  therefore He knew that mankind would fall  /this argument / does'nt really work/ as God could have  just given us a Garden without satan - but still with free will [as Adam and Eve had ..

Hence you would still have people who looked after themselves and others that looked after others [ the selfish and the unselfish]

If God uses satan - then you bring ]ahh I'm thinking ahead of you] Isaiah 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. [KJB]

Of course because He is God He must now become the creator of evil..


The problem was that God created an Angel with free will and that Angel rebelled... God created satan to be perfect - the same as He created the Garden to be perfect -and Adam and Eve...

God never created death - I mean why wouild He do that ?

The second plan -was to birth Jesus...

There is a problem with my theology...when I go into the new earth after death "what is to stop me from rebelling ?

I see your argument 2thatGod knows all things - so why would He   create a perfect world knowing that satan would destroy it..In fact I can go one up on you - by experiencing  his effect on my life [as the disciples did] and hearing God speak ..

I know that satan can atack first hand - but I am not  convionced that although God created satan - He thererfore uses satan to atack the very people that God.. protects / overshadows [ look at the names of God and see His character...]


His Character is not death/destroy/etc..

I know it - because I have lived it..


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Tes Johnson

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Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #65 on: May 27, 2020, 12:46:50 AM »


okay well you can now  argue

 
Exodus 12:23   


For the Lord will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the Lord will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to come in to your houses to smite you.


Thinking ahead of you...

 Of course this was The Angel of the Lord




Tes Johnson

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Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #66 on: May 27, 2020, 12:52:30 AM »
What God created was perfect [ it was the way it was meant to be]

Your arguing God's foreknowledge against - God's Will and our will and angels will's

Hiowever God is perfect.


Yeah I love this stuff..

Tes Johnson

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Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #67 on: May 27, 2020, 01:04:31 AM »

Okay @strobe - I will leave you with this thought...

Why would God create opposition to  Himself

I mean why woukld God oppose Himself  - see: Mark 3:24  If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end.


It's like saying "As God is sovereign - He must have started the Corona virus"




Your argument is invalid..


Offline strobe

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Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #68 on: May 27, 2020, 04:09:10 AM »
It's the old argument that that it was about the King of Tyre..

Hi @strobe   love your username BTW...

What you are saying is that  God  uses satan...

I'm not sure that God ever intended for life to be what it is like now..

You may argue that God "knows all things"  therefore He knew that mankind would fall  /this argument / does'nt really work/ as God could have  just given us a Garden without satan - but still with free will [as Adam and Eve had ..

Hence you would still have people who looked after themselves and others that looked after others [ the selfish and the unselfish]

If God uses satan - then you bring ]ahh I'm thinking ahead of you] Isaiah 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. [KJB]

Of course because He is God He must now become the creator of evil..

The problem was that God created an Angel with free will and that Angel rebelled... God created satan to be perfect - the same as He created the Garden to be perfect -and Adam and Eve...

God never created death - I mean why wouild He do that ?

The second plan -was to birth Jesus...

There is a problem with my theology...when I go into the new earth after death "what is to stop me from rebelling ?

I see your argument 2thatGod knows all things - so why would He   create a perfect world knowing that satan would destroy it..In fact I can go one up on you - by experiencing  his effect on my life [as the disciples did] and hearing God speak ..

I know that satan can atack first hand - but I am not  convionced that although God created satan - He thererfore uses satan to atack the very people that God.. protects / overshadows [ look at the names of God and see His character...]

His Character is not death/destroy/etc..

I know it - because I have lived it..
It's an old argument is it? And there was I thinking I was all modern. Still, the oldies are the best though. I am not necessarily arguing the point, just posing the question though, and I think it's a perfectly reasonable question.
If God created Satan as a perfect being, how could he rebel? A perfect being would never rebel unless rebellion was his purpose and in God's will.
My argument is that mankind was created with free will and fell at the first hurdle as was required so that in the end, once God's plan is seen through we would have perfect free will and be perfect and holy.
Satan was and is a necessary part of that plan and required him to tempt and cause Adam and Eve to sin. Satan may have free will, I am not sure but MUST have been doing God's will and be part of God's perfect plan.
I think this is a valid argument but it does imply that Satan is not deserving of being destroyed, just put right in the same way as unrepentant man will need to be.
Thanks for the compliment but you can all can me Stephen if you prefer, that's where the st in strobe comes from, the robe being from my other name so that works out quite nicely.
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

Offline Christianna

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Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #69 on: May 27, 2020, 05:40:05 AM »
Hello @strobe your thread has given a lot of discussion.
There was someone called Roger Tutt, who has your views.
Are you a friend or relative of him, I wonder?

Offline strobe

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Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #70 on: May 27, 2020, 08:42:26 AM »
Hello @strobe your thread has given a lot of discussion.
There was someone called Roger Tutt, who has your views.
Are you a friend or relative of him, I wonder?

Sorry, definitely not a close relative. Never heard that name before. Was he a poster on here?
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

Offline Winnie

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Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #71 on: May 27, 2020, 12:57:33 PM »
It's an old argument is it? And there was I thinking I was all modern. Still, the oldies are the best though. I am not necessarily arguing the point, just posing the question though, and I think it's a perfectly reasonable question.

If God created Satan as a perfect being, how could he rebel? A perfect being would never rebel unless rebellion was his purpose and in God's will.
My argument is that mankind was created with free will and fell at the first hurdle as was required so that in the end, once God's plan is seen through we would have perfect free will and be perfect and holy.

Satan was and is a necessary part of that plan and required him to tempt and cause Adam and Eve to sin. Satan may have free will, I am not sure but MUST have been doing God's will and be part of God's perfect plan.

I think this is a valid argument but it does imply that Satan is not deserving of being destroyed, just put right in the same way as unrepentant man will need to be.

Thanks for the compliment but you can all can me Stephen if you prefer, that's where the st in strobe comes from, the robe being from my other name so that works out quite nicely.

'He that committeth sin is of the devil;
for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
For this purpose the Son of God was manifested,
that He might destroy the works of the devil.'

(1 John 3:8 ) 

Hello Stephen,

Thank you for explaining your user name: I was thinking of strobe, as in 'strobe lighting':)

Coming to your thoughts expressed in the quote above. In order to hold this belief you have to ignore much that is written in God's word: especially in regard to Satan's end, for it is well documented. In Ezekiel 28:16-19 God says,

1) I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God.
I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.


2) I will cast thee to the earth.
I will lay thee before kings


3) I will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee and it shall devour thee.
I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth.


4) Thou shalt be a terror
Never shalt thou be any more.


* Can anything be clearer than that?  The first movement deprives the anointed cherub of his glory and office.  The second casts him to the earth as a spectacle to kings.  The third sees him reduced to ashes by the fire brought from the midst of himself.  The fourth speaks of the effect of his destruction upon others.

* This punishment is future:- 'And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world : he was cast out unto the earth'
(Rev. 12:9 )

* 'I will bring forth a fire from the midst of thee' (Ezek 28:18 )

The fire that belonged to his exalted station, the continual accompaniment of Divine glory, that fire, when once the Divine protection is withdrawn, becomes the very instrument of his destruction, for we are not left in uncertainty regarding it's effect - 'It shall devour thee to ashes on the earth'. With this in mind Malachi 4:3 can be read:-

'And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet.'

* Do you not believe that God's word is true?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

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