Author Topic: Do angels have free will?  (Read 2192 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Christianna

  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 974
Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #48 on: May 24, 2020, 03:24:00 PM »

Welcome to the Biblical and Theology Section of 1Faith

[Raise a Debate] @ 1faith

Your post will be answered shortly

Raise a Debate - by posting bait !
But my point was that every knee will bend and every tongue confess.
Every means all of them with no exceptions as far as I know.

Does that mean though that  they will have friendship, and fellowship with Jesus , through individual redemption and consequently have eternal life?

Welcome to the Biblical and Theology Section of 1Faith

[Raise a Debate] @ 1faith

Your post will be answered shortly

Raise a Debate - by posting bait !

Offline Winnie

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 147
  • Welcome our New Member
Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #49 on: May 24, 2020, 04:04:51 PM »
But my point was that every knee will bend and every tongue confess.
Every means all of them with no exceptions as far as I know.

'That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
.. of things in heaven,
.... and things in earth,
...... and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.'

(Philippians 2:10-11)   

Hello @strobe,

When all things have been subdued under the feet of Christ, then indeed, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. For those remaining on the earth will be those who acknowledge His Lordship.  All enemies will have been subjugated, the last enemy being death itself (1 Corinthians 15:24-26).

In Christ Jesus
Chris


Online strobe

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100
  • Gender: Male
  • Welcome our New Member
Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2020, 04:10:41 PM »
'That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
.. of things in heaven,
.... and things in earth,
...... and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.'

(Philippians 2:10-11)   

Hello @strobe,

When all things have been subdued under the feet of Christ and God become 'all in al,l' then indeed, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. For those remaining on the earth will be those who acknowledge His Lordship.  All enemies will have been destroyed, the last enemy being death itself.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
No no no no no !!!!
It's there in black and white and you have quoted it.
in heaven
in earth
under the earth
you can't say that just means people on earth.
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

Offline Winnie

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 147
  • Welcome our New Member
Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #51 on: May 24, 2020, 04:24:26 PM »
No no no no no !!!!
It's there in black and white and you have quoted it.
in heaven
in earth
under the earth
you can't say that just means people on earth.

Hello @strobe,

Yes, indeed, as you say, 'in heaven' and 'in earth' and 'under the earth' which I omitted, for as it says in (Ephesians 1:9-10) 

'Having made known unto us the mystery of His will,
according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times
He might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heaven,
and which are on earth;
even in Him: ... '


* As you say, God will gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him. But that necessitates that all enemies be placed under His feet (or subjucated), which was the point I was making.  The last enemy to be destroyed being death itself.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Online strobe

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 100
  • Gender: Male
  • Welcome our New Member
Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2020, 10:11:01 AM »
Hello @strobe,

Yes, indeed, as you say, 'in heaven' and 'in earth' and 'under the earth' which I omitted, for as it says in (Ephesians 1:9-10) 

'Having made known unto us the mystery of His will,
according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times
He might gather together in one all things in Christ,
both which are in heaven,
and which are on earth;
even in Him: ... '


* As you say, God will gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him. But that necessitates that all enemies be placed under His feet (or subjucated), which was the point I was making.  The last enemy to be destroyed being death itself.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
Okay, I've gone over this again and again and still I really don't understand. I may be stupid so please make it clear to me.
It seems to me you are saying you can ignore what Paul said to the Philippians because he said something else to the Ephesians that you agree with and you can use to support your view that God will annihilate people who don't accept Him.
Please just imagine you are one of the Philippians for a moment and received this message from Paul. You would have no knowledge of the message he sent to the Ephesians so you can take his letter you received in isolation.
God will not be satisfied until He has saved ALL PEOPLE whether they are in heaven, on earth or under the earth and God WILL be satisfied. Why are you so resistant to this? Is not accepting Jesus a work and is it not the case that salvation is not by works lest anyone boast? Do you not think that God has no way of overcoming the resistance of people to accept His salvation without taking away their free will? He managed it with me while I was still on earth but I believe He would have managed it if I had been under the earth too.
1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
John 17:2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.
Romans 8:
38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Love and peace in Jesus Christ
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

Online Christianna

  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 974
Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2020, 11:05:40 AM »
Hello Strobe,

I would love everyone to have eternal life and I pray for so many people. Jesus told us to pray for our enemies and it goes against my natural part but I pray for people who have hurt before, that they will come to know Jesus and have eternal life.
I love the scriptures you have put down. Just there are other scriptures I struggle with. If I'm honest I do not like these scriptures perhaps @Winnie @Deborah can explain them.
This scripture hurts so much if I'm honest but must have a plausible explanation.

Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name  And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!

Offline Deborah

  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 889
  • Gender: Female
  • New :
    • Discovering the Bible
Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #54 on: May 25, 2020, 12:29:31 PM »
Okay, I've gone over this again and again and still I really don't understand. I may be stupid so please make it clear to me.
It seems to me you are saying you can ignore what Paul said to the Philippians because he said something else to the Ephesians that you agree with and you can use to support your view that God will annihilate people who don't accept Him.
Please just imagine you are one of the Philippians for a moment and received this message from Paul. You would have no knowledge of the message he sent to the Ephesians so you can take his letter you received in isolation.
God will not be satisfied until He has saved ALL PEOPLE whether they are in heaven, on earth or under the earth and God WILL be satisfied. Why are you so resistant to this? Is not accepting Jesus a work and is it not the case that salvation is not by works lest anyone boast? Do you not think that God has no way of overcoming the resistance of people to accept His salvation without taking away their free will? He managed it with me while I was still on earth but I believe He would have managed it if I had been under the earth too.
1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
John 17:2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.
Romans 8:
38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Love and peace in Jesus Christ

Hello Strobe,

I would love everyone to have eternal life and I pray for so many people. Jesus told us to pray for our enemies and it goes against my natural part but I pray for people who have hurt before, that they will come to know Jesus and have eternal life.
I love the scriptures you have put down. Just there are other scriptures I struggle with. If I'm honest I do not like these scriptures perhaps @Winnie @Deborah can explain them.
This scripture hurts so much if I'm honest but must have a plausible explanation.

Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name  And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!


Will every single individual be saved? People get to have strong opinions about this. Obviously, we would all like everyone to be saved (even if we believe they won't) - but you can't approach Scripture with the aim of proving what you already want to believe. Whatever doctrine we end up with has to take into account the whole of the Bible - not just those verses that support our preferred point of view. Unfortunately, in these debated people tend to end up quoting Scripture verses at each other and no-one tries to synthesise both sides of the argument into a coherent whole. That's why I try to stay out of these debates.

But since Christianna has asked...

The Scriptures that Strobe has listed appear to support universalism (at least on first reading). However, there are many other Scriptures (such as the one Christianna has quoted) that appear to state that at least some will not be saved. There is also the argument that, if everyone is going to be saved anyway, why bother with evangelism? - yet we are commanded to preach the Gospel throughout the world.

One thing to point out is that the word "all" in Scripture doesn't always mean "100%". (See Exodus 9, where in verse 6 "all" the livestock of the Egyptians die from a plague, yet in verses 19 & 20 the Egyptians still have livestock that need protecting from the hail!) Sometimes "all" doesn't mean "all without exception" (i.e. everyone) but "all without distinction" (i.e. all kinds of people). Context is very important here.

I Timothy 4:10 God is able and willing to save the whole world - but why "especially" those who believe? Because to access that salvation, we have to place our trust in Jesus.
John 6:37 "All those the Father gives Me..." - well, that isn't necessarily everyone, is it? It's "everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him." (verse 40)
John 12:32 Jesus becomes a world-famous person due to His death and resurrection - but it doesn't necessarily follow that all who know of Him will believe in Him.
John 12:47 Jesus came to save, not to judge - but in the very next breath He says, "There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not accept My words; the very words that I have spoken will condemn them at the last day." (John 12:48)
John 17:2 Eternal life is for "all those the Father has given Him" - not everyone.
Romans 8:38,39 is talking about believers only.

Matthew 7:21-23 A solemn warning from Jesus that merely being a "church member" or even a miracle-worker is not a free ticket to salvation. He knows our hearts, and He knows who really does belong to Him and who is putting on a show.

Philippian 2:10,11 - could mean that every single thing in the universe (even demons?) will acknowledge Christ as Lord (and therefore be saved). Or it could mean that some will bow willingly and others only under duress (on their way to Hell?). Or that in the end only those who submit to Christ will enjoy the new creation.

To my mind, Jesus laid such emphasis on the reality of condemnation, judgement and Hell, and the importance of choosing to follow Him now, that universalism simply cannot fit into this overall picture and it's easier to re-interpret the "pro-universalism" verses. But that doesn't mean I like the idea of people going to Hell. And it's possible I could be wrong.
"Resist the devil, standing firm in the faith." (I Peter 5:9)

Online Christianna

  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 974
Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #55 on: May 25, 2020, 12:57:43 PM »
Thank you @Deborah

Welcome to the Biblical and Theology Section of 1Faith

[Raise a Debate] @ 1faith

Your post will be answered shortly

Raise a Debate - by posting bait !
 


SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal