Author Topic: Do angels have free will?  (Read 2193 times)

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Offline Winnie

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Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2020, 03:11:26 PM »

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For the present (and I have long held the same inclination) Annihilation sits more comfortably than "eternal torment in the lake of fire for anyone other than the Devil. the Beast, and the False Prophet", and also sits more comfortably than Ultimate Universal Reconciliation for everyone else.
Its what I call the 'happy medium' (and no, I'm not a spiritualist loopy: ).

Hello @Theo,

Ultimately it is not what we are comfortable with that matters though is it?  But what is actually written concerning these things.  Truth is what endures, not our feelings regarding it.  Though I agree with you on both counts.   :D

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

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Online Christianna

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Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2020, 04:27:16 PM »
For the present (and I have long held the same inclination) Annihilation sits more comfortably than "eternal torment in the lake of fire for anyone other than the Devil. the Beast, and the False Prophet", and also sits more comfortably than Ultimate Universal Reconciliation for everyone else.
Its what I call the 'happy medium' (and no, I'm not a spiritualist loopy: ).


Hello 😊 @Theo

In Revelations it talks of the devil's  torment for ever and so do other scriptures with people, but that's not consistent with other scriptures, and so it seemed that the forever torment was referring to the rest of their existence, until they were annihilated. Also expressed as gnashing teeth, a plant destroyed by its roots so it cannot regrow.
There's so much there to describe annihilation and even for the devil.

Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. Ezekiel 28:17-19

If the devil will be annihilated and then so will people refusing the gospel of Christ.

@strobe
We talked about the will of God and that He doesn't want any to perish but all to come to repentance.
That God hates the death of the wicked. Ezekiel 33:10:12 Ezekiel 18:23

That's the same for many of us. We would like everyone to have eternal life.
Yet that's not what the scriptures say. It's not automatic, but takes a response to respond to Christ and trust in Him in repentance .

God gave us freewill as @davetaff reminded us and so we can love God freely, and without force. The gift of freewill is what has prevented all from turning to Christ.
For as said it's the will of God and His love that wants all to turn to Him.
 

Theo

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Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2020, 08:57:36 AM »
Hello @Theo,

Ultimately it is not what we are comfortable with that matters though is it?  But what is actually written concerning these things.  Truth is what endures, not our feelings regarding it.  Though I agree with you on both counts.   :D

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

But is not "the truth that endures" that which God's Holy Spirit writes into the "fleshy tables of our hearts" rather than what we see when we physically read something, written thousands of years ago, the original manuscripts of which God allowed to disappear, and the copies of which have spawned 100 different English translation versions?
I recognise your penchant for recourse to translations of greek words, but never forget God's purpose in allowing the actual original words to disappear in order that we should not allow 'Bibliolatry' to subordinate the work allotted to the Holy Spirit at the point of Christ's "glorification" and return to His Father's right hand.
The 'Bible' is not the third person of the Godhead; subordinating the Holy Spirit into a subjective fourth place.
I allow God's Holy Spirit his full, unquenched, role, as I read "You are our epistle written in our hearts, forasmuch as you are clearly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing ; but our sufficiency is of God;
who also has made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for whereas the letter kills, it is the spirit that gives life"
.

Offline davetaff

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Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2020, 10:52:55 AM »
Hi Theo
Interesting post but we still need the written word of God without it we cannot bring people to know God and turn to him in repentance and receive the Holy Spirit and live.
I also believe the God of all creation is more than able to produce a bible in any language he chooses and it will be good for his purpose which is to instruct people not just academics but ordinary men and women God wants us to understand what he is saying and we can't do that if we have to learn three ancient languages to do that.
When our Lord came into the world he did not go to the academics of his day he went to ordinary uneducated Fisher men because they would understand what he was saying.

The English bible as we have it is as God wants it to be otherwise it would mean that mere man could interfere with God's word changing the meaning of the English words serves no useful purpose just muddied  the waters.
I have looked at some of Strong's  definitions and sometimes a Greek word can have several different meanings in which case you could write several different versions of the bible.
God has to be the translator of the bible it's the only thing that makes sense it's not to hard to understand it's all about Love and creation.

Love and peace
Dave

Offline Winnie

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Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2020, 06:28:18 PM »
But is not "the truth that endures" that which God's Holy Spirit writes into the "fleshy tables of our hearts" rather than what we see when we physically read something, written thousands of years ago, the original manuscripts of which God allowed to disappear, and the copies of which have spawned 100 different English translation versions?
Hi Theo,

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.  So, I believe that the reading or 'hearing' of the word of God is essential for our faith initially, and for our growth in grace and truth and in the knowledge of Him following that initial entrance of faith.
Quote
I recognise your penchant for recourse to translations of Greek words, but never forget God's purpose in allowing the actual original words to disappear in order that we should not allow 'Bibliolatry' to subordinate the work allotted to the Holy Spirit at the point of Christ's "glorification" and return to His Father's right hand.
* No, I do that if I feel I need to, but I am happy with my version of choice for the most part.  It is made necessary sometimes, when the meaning of a text is challenged on the forum, it is then that I look at the meaning of the original Greek or Hebrew words in a concordance, and see how it is used elsewhere in Scripture, or, look in the Greek or Hebrew interlinear Bibles online.  I do find though, that the context of a word will supply it's meaning better than anything.  :D
Quote
The 'Bible' is not the third person of the Godhead; subordinating the Holy Spirit into a subjective fourth place.
* Of course not, I agree, but it is the Holy Spirit's sword.
Quote
I allow God's Holy Spirit his full, unquenched, role, as I read "You are our epistle written in our hearts, forasmuch as you are clearly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
* Yes, I praise God for the work of the Holy Spirit, Who takes of the things of Christ and makes them ours.
Quote
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing ; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also has made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for whereas the letter kills, it is the spirit that gives life".
* I am not a Minister of the New Testament as Paul and his fellow-workers were in 2 Corinthians 3:6: but if I were, I, like them, would shew by the Scriptures that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. (Acts 18:28).  The 'letter that killeth' referred to in 2 Corinthians, was the law, as the context reveals, and not the Scriptures themselves. I am very thankful to the word of God, for it was through the hearing of it's words that I came to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and received life through His Name.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris[/size]

Online strobe

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Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #45 on: May 24, 2020, 12:53:22 PM »

Hello  @Theo

In Revelations it talks of the devil's  torment for ever and so do other scriptures with people, but that's not consistent with other scriptures, and so it seemed that the forever torment was referring to the rest of their existence, until they were annihilated. Also expressed as gnashing teeth, a plant destroyed by its roots so it cannot regrow.
There's so much there to describe annihilation and even for the devil.

Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. Ezekiel 28:17-19

If the devil will be annihilated and then so will people refusing the gospel of Christ.

@strobe
We talked about the will of God and that He doesn't want any to perish but all to come to repentance.
That God hates the death of the wicked. Ezekiel 33:10:12 Ezekiel 18:23

That's the same for many of us. We would like everyone to have eternal life.
Yet that's not what the scriptures say. It's not automatic, but takes a response to respond to Christ and trust in Him in repentance .

God gave us freewill as @davetaff reminded us and so we can love God freely, and without force. The gift of freewill is what has prevented all from turning to Christ.
For as said it's the will of God and His love that wants all to turn to Him.
Hi Christianna
I think Philippians chapter 2 might also be relevant here:
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Also isn't exactly the same terminology in Revelation (BTW small point but it's not plural) is not only used to describe the fate of the devil but also people. So how can you accept that the devil is tormented forever when people are annihilated forever?
Love, peace and warmth x
P.S. I've read your post properly now so ignore the final point!
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

Online Christianna

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Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #46 on: May 24, 2020, 01:59:22 PM »
Hello Strobe,
 :D I think that there's been a little misunderstanding.
I quoted Ezekiel 28 to show the devil's annihilation.

The idea of a literal fire is unrealistic. It must be metaphoric language. There is much there showing torment but not for all eternity. Over the total destruction of the whole person, unwilling to respond to the love and forgiveness for sins , unwilling to repent and resulting from death to total death.

That to me shows that God gives us freewill.
If everyone was redeemed, it would be going against their own choices. Not everyone wants eternal life.

There is the judgement of God and I don't think it's all wrathful, although comes into it. Just everything brought to light and justified.

Apart from that it's life or death, as people choose and some will have regret but continue to not respond to God. It's not what I want but what the Bible says. We can't close our eyes to it as Winnie said.

Online strobe

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Re: Do angels have free will?
« Reply #47 on: May 24, 2020, 02:41:59 PM »
Hello Strobe,
 :D I think that there's been a little misunderstanding.
I quoted Ezekiel 28 to show the devil's annihilation.

The idea of a literal fire is unrealistic. It must be metaphoric language. There is much there showing torment but not for all eternity. Over the total destruction of the whole person, unwilling to respond to the love and forgiveness for sins , unwilling to repent and resulting from death to total death.

That to me shows that God gives us freewill.
If everyone was redeemed, it would be going against their own choices. Not everyone wants eternal life.

There is the judgement of God and I don't think it's all wrathful, although comes into it. Just everything brought to light and justified.

Apart from that it's life or death, as people choose and some will have regret but continue to not respond to God. It's not what I want but what the Bible says. We can't close our eyes to it as Winnie said.

But my point was that every knee will bend and every tongue confess.
Every means all of them with no exceptions as far as I know.
StRobe - As in Adam ... so in Christ

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