Author Topic: Predesdination  (Read 700 times)

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Offline francis drake

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2019, 10:22:12 PM »

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Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply very thought provoking I have read Romans 1 and find very little in it to negate what I have said except verse I.
Goodness me Dave, you must be blind. The whole of Romans1 is about man's own responsibility for surrendering to God without excuse.
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. 1  Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God         

But as Paul states here he was called to be an Apostle not a disciple there is a difference an Apostle is one who is sent to preach the gospel to call disciples to follow Christ.
I don't dispute Paul was an apostle, but before that he was a disciple.
We read that in Galatians1v11 where he first disappeared to Arabia where he got his revelations from Jesus. Most likely he went to Mount Horeb like Elijah did, but that's a bit of speculation.
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.     John 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.   [/color

This supports what I have said not what you have said.
No Dave, it supports what I said. Jesus was not choosing them for salvation because they were already God fearing Jews. He was only choosing them to serve his ministry.
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If the Apostles were not saved his could Christ say the following.
Of course they were saved, that's what I said already.
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      Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel   

You will need to prove it to me how on earth could they possibly know that the one who said to them follow me was the son of God
So why did they leave everything and followed Christ.
Go read Romans1, read it thoroughly and you will see.
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As for
.   66  From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 67  Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

 68  Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

 69  And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

 70  Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil         


I think St Peter answers your question and Christ again says he has chosen them.
Yes Peter answers, but Jesus's words here and elsewhere make it clear they still had free choice.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

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Offline davetaff

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2019, 11:51:03 AM »
Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply you said.
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. Goodness me Dave, you must be blind. The whole of Romans1 is about man's own responsibility for surrendering to God without excuse         

Quite right it's about all those who are called by those who are chosen there is a difference.

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.    don't dispute Paul was an apostle, but before that he was a disciple.
We read that in Galatians1v11 where he first disappeared to Arabia where he got his revelations from Jesus. Most likely he went to Mount Horeb like Elijah did, but that's a bit of speculation   

Where on earth did you find that faith tail Paul persecuted the church of Christ right up until he met Christ on the road to Damascus
To maintain that Paul was a disciple before that point is pure fabrication.

.  John 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you       

So what you are saying is Jesus got it wrong I suggest you do a word search for the word chosen as I have done and you may be surprised how many have been chosen people like Abram Isaac Jakob the nation of Israel etc.
None of them chose God God chose them as God chose his Apostles.

Love and Peace
Dave


Offline francis drake

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2019, 09:23:34 PM »
Quite right it's about all those who are called by those who are chosen there is a difference.
I haven't a clue what that's got to do with what I said.
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Where on earth did you find that faith tail Paul persecuted the church of Christ right up until he met Christ on the road to Damascus
To maintain that Paul was a disciple before that point is pure fabrication.
After his Damascus Road experience, Saul/Paul left Damascus and disappeared into Arabia, before returning to Damascus. It was 3 years before Paul connected with the other apostles in Jerusalem.
Although it doesn't say so, I believe he went to mount Horeb, like Elijah. Paul was a Pharisee and was deeply trained for ministering to the Jews, but God had told him he was being sent to the Gentiles. Before that could happen, Paul needed a whole load of discipling from the Lord
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.  John 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you       
You keep quoting stuff like this, but again if you post the full verse instead of only half, you can see what it means.it proves my point.
Jn15v16You did not choose Me, but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit?fruit that will remain?so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you.
He appointed them to go and bear fruit etc., not to get born again!
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So what you are saying is Jesus got it wrong I suggest you do a word search for the word chosen as I have done and you may be surprised how many have been chosen people like Abram Isaac Jakob the nation of Israel etc.
None of them chose God God chose them as God chose his Apostles.
Obviously Jesus didn't get it wrong. But you certainly did.
Nowhere does it say that God chose anyone to give them eternal life. Jesus chose God fearing Jews as his disciples so they could be sent to do a job. That's an entirely different choosing.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2019, 12:53:24 PM »
Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply I think it may be useful to look at what started the thread predestination.

.  Ephesians 1

 1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

 2  Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

 3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: note

 4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 6  To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved         


If we look at verse one we see that Paul calls them saints, and then the faithful two different groups.
Verse four states categorically that God had chosen certain people from the foundation of the world who are they?
Verse five here we have that word predestined who is it that are predestined is it everyone I don't think so but it is plain that there those who are predestined.
Verse six take note of " he hath made us accepted in the beloved"
The words hath made means something God has done not what we have done.
So the saints that are chosen are accepted in the beloved as part of the body of Christ.
Don't forget that It was God that created the woman for the first Adam he also creates the woman for the last Adam who is Christ and it is a work of God not the work of man.

Love and Peace
Dave         


Offline francis drake

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2019, 07:13:24 PM »
Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply I think it may be useful to look at what started the thread predestination.

.  Ephesians 1

 1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

 2  Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

 3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: note

 4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

 5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 6  To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved         


If we look at verse one we see that Paul calls them saints, and then the faithful two different groups.
Sorry Dave, but they are not two different groups. Your translation might make it appear that way, but its one in the same the same group. ie. The Ephesians are both the saints and the faithful in Christ Jesus. That is what most translations show, as does the Greek original text.
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Verse four states categorically that God had chosen certain people from the foundation of the world who are they?
Simple. Christ, who knows the end from the beginning, chose those who would respond to him, those who "would be in him".
Predestination only applies to those who already belong to him.
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Verse five here we have that word predestined who is it that are predestined is it everyone I don't think so but it is plain that there those who are predestined.
Those who already belong to Christ have a predestined future to reign with him etc. Nobody is predestined by force to accept Christ.
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Verse six take note of " he hath made us accepted in the beloved"
The words hath made means something God has done not what we have done.
Again, God has made sinful and messed up people acceptable, on account of their surrender and humility towards him.
God only gives grace to the humble.
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So the saints that are chosen are accepted in the beloved as part of the body of Christ.
Nowhere does it state that people are chosen to get born again. Such a notion contradicts basic scripture such as-
James4v6God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
It is basic pride of man which makes him reject his creator. Therefore God will always resist and oppose him. God will never grant the grace of New Birth or Salvation to anyone who will not humble themselves before him.
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Don't forget that It was God that created the woman for the first Adam he also creates the woman for the last Adam who is Christ and it is a work of God not the work of man.
Irrelevant.
But if you want to bring that up, you will remember that Eve had freewill to choose life or death, the Tree of Knowledge or the Tree of Life.
If God predestines people to become saints, why didn't he do that in the garden of Eden to Adam and Eve before they ate of that tree?
Adam and Eve had freewill, and so do we.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2019, 01:15:08 PM »
Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply as for translations I like to stick to the KJV it has served me well up to now and see no reason to change.
So let's look at verse 1 again.

.  1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus         

What is a saint as I understand it they are holy and those who have been chosen to be the body of Christ.
Now let's look at what the wording says about the faithful it says
 " and to the faithful " if it was meant to include the Saints surely it would say " who are faithful " as for other translations I have looked at a few and I am not impressed it seams you can translate the original language in many different ways so which one are we to believe.
For myself I like to stick to the KJV as I think it may have been inspired  can't prove this of course.
After looking at the meaning of words in Strongs it seams to me you could write a completely new bible.

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Simple. Christ, who knows the end from the beginning, chose those who would respond to him, those who "would be in him".
Predestination only applies to those who already belong to him.       
 
you will need to prove this statement from scripture.
Which ever way you look at it they were predestined what scripture do you have to prove that he only chose those who would respond to him how do you know that he did not just pick them at random.

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Those who already belong to Christ have a predestined future to reign with him etc. Nobody is predestined by force to accept Christ.     

Christ chose his apostles not a question of force but a question of obedience.

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Again, God has made sinful and messed up people acceptable, on account of their surrender and humility towards him.
God only gives grace to the humble.

the verse says made acceptable they did not make themselves acceptable those who humbled those who humbled them selves are the disciples who follow Christ.

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Nowhere does it state that people are chosen to get born again. Such a notion contradicts basic scripture such as-
James4v6God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
It is basic pride of man which makes him reject his creator. Therefore God will always resist and oppose him. God will never grant the grace of New Birth or Salvation to anyone who will not humble themselves before him.   

Give me the basic scripture, God gives grace to the humble is not in question I agree but we are talking about those who have been chosen to be the body of Christ if they are in the body they are saved to eternal life.

Are you saying that everyone who is a Christian is part of the body of Christ I dont think so there is a difference between an apostle and a disciple I believe the disciples are the children of God or if you prefer the sons of God

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Irrelevant.
But if you want to bring that up, you will remember that Eve had freewill to choose life or death, the Tree of Knowledge or the Tree of Life.
If God predestines people to become saints, why didn't he do that in the garden of Eden to Adam and Eve before they ate of that tree?
Adam and Eve had freewill, and so do we.     

Of course Eve and Adam had free will that has never been in question and so dose the church but the big difference the first Eve and the second Eve the church is the church has forgivness through the prescious blood of Christ as far as I can see Adam and eve never had the option. 
the tree of Knowledge is sill there we still have the freewill to choose good or evil but now the tree of life is also accessable which is Jesus Christ our Lord praise be to God

Love and Peace
Dave


Offline francis drake

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2019, 06:28:26 PM »
Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply as for translations I like to stick to the KJV it has served me well up to now and see no reason to change.
So let's look at verse 1 again.

.  1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus         

What is a saint as I understand it they are holy and those who have been chosen to be the body of Christ.
The Greek word "hagios" is translated as saint, sanctified, set apart, holy etc

Basically, it just means someone who is set apart by God. But see below for proof.

Strong's Concordance
hagios: sacred, holy
Original Word: ἅγιος, ία, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: hagios
Phonetic Spelling: (hag'-ee-os)
Definition: sacred, holy
Usage: set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred.

The fundamental (core) meaning of (h?gios) is "different" ? thus a temple in the 1st century was hagios ("holy") because different from other buildings (Wm. Barclay).

Basically, a person becomes a "saint", "sanctified", declared "holy", or "set apart", by faith in Christ Jesus. The two are inextricably linked and cannot be separated.

Paul makes this abundantly clear in Acts where he combines the two words together.-
Acts26v18..to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2019, 04:25:03 PM »
Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply interesting.

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The Greek word "hagios" is translated as saint, sanctified, set apart, holy etc

Basically, it just means someone who is set apart by God. But see below for proof.       


That's what I've been saying  along the saints apostles have been chosen by God they are Gods elect
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Strong's Concordance
hagios: sacred, holy
Original Word: ἅγιος, ία, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: hagios
Phonetic Spelling: (hag'-ee-os)
Definition: sacred, holy
Usage: set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred.     

note the last line set apart by God or if you like Chosen by God.
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The fundamental (core) meaning of (h?gios) is "different" ? thus a temple in the 1st century was hagios ("holy") because different from other buildings (Wm. Barclay).   
I don't see where you get the word different I can't see it anywhere in the above who's wm Barkly why should I believe him.

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Basically, a person becomes a "saint", "sanctified", declared "holy", or "set apart", by faith in Christ Jesus. The two are inextricably linked and cannot be separated.       

Are you saying everyone who believes is a saint in that case everyone is chosen by God and there is no freewill, there is an elect chosen by God Christs helper his Eve who is a creation Of God nothing to do with the will of man.


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Paul makes this abundantly clear in Acts where he combines the two words together.-
Acts26v18..to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'       

I think you will find that this is Christ speeking to Paul on the road to Domascus.

Act 26:16  But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Act 26:17  Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
Act 26:18  To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
     


This is Christ telling Paul of the convertion of the Gentiles and yes they will be sanctified but when will that change take place I would say at the first resserrection when they recieve their snow white garments.

but the saint recieved their sanctification when our lord said to them I have Chosen you.


Love and peace

Dave



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