Author Topic: Predesdination  (Read 699 times)

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Offline francis drake

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2019, 10:31:00 PM »

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Matthew 23:37

Good verse.
This verse completely refutes the ideology that God chooses, or predestines some to salvation and some to death.

Jesus desperately wanted to save the inhabitants of Jerusalem, but they refused and rejected him.
Sellers of predestination claim that it is not us, but God who chooses who he saves. If that is the case, why couldn't Jesus simply override their freewill and save them?



Matt23v37Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

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Offline davetaff

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2019, 04:19:41 PM »
Hi
Came across this verse from Daniel thought it mite be relevant.

.35  And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou         

Daniel is a wonderful book of prophesies from his time to the end of time and what the above verse shows is God has a plan and he will see that that plan will be completed according to his will.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline francis drake

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2019, 05:48:49 PM »
Hi
Came across this verse from Daniel thought it mite be relevant.

.35  And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou         

Daniel is a wonderful book of prophesies from his time to the end of time and what the above verse shows is God has a plan and he will see that that plan will be completed according to his will.

Love and Peace
Dave
It still doesn't demonstrate that God predestines certain people to eternal life and others to eternal death.
The bible is full of verses where God calls on man to make his choices, which makes no sense at all if man has no choice.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2019, 01:01:23 AM »


Also depends on which covenant you are living under at the time...


Offline francis drake

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2019, 12:21:48 PM »

Also depends on which covenant you are living under at the time...


How do you work that out, given that there was a long period of time before any covenants were given?

The doctrine that before creation, God predestined some people to eternal life and some to eternal damnation, if true, must apply to all mankind.
And don't forget that even in the OT, the majority of the world had never ever heard of the covenant God made with Abraham.

Thankfully, the doctrine that God sovereignly preselects people for life or death is a complete lie with no biblical support.

From beginning to end of scripture, God has always demanded that man makes his own choice.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2019, 01:31:57 PM »
It still doesn't demonstrate that God predestines certain people to eternal life and others to eternal death.
The bible is full of verses where God calls on man to make his choices, which makes no sense at all if man has no choice.

Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply I don't think you are not reading my posts properly I'm agreeing with you the only thing I am saying is there is a very small number that have been chosen by him the rest of humanity 99% have the freewill to choose salvation or not.
You say the bible is full of verses that support what you say but I can't find any.

I have given you scripture which I believe supports what I say but you seem to ignore them.
Let me put it this way say you are in your garden working when a complete stranger comes up to you and says follow me what would you say.
This is what happened to the Apostles they dropped what they were doing and followed Christ the words follow me were a command not a request.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline francis drake

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2019, 09:52:57 PM »
Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply I don't think you are not reading my posts properly I'm agreeing with you the only thing I am saying is there is a very small number that have been chosen by him the rest of humanity 99% have the freewill to choose salvation or not.
There is no 99% and 1%.
100% of mankind has free choice, as Romans1 states in the clearest of terms.
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You say the bible is full of verses that support what you say but I can't find any.
Try Romans1 for a start.
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I have given you scripture which I believe supports what I say but you seem to ignore them.
You quoted
John 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
But this was Jesus's call to service as his disciples and apostles. He was not calling them to be born again or saved.
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Let me put it this way say you are in your garden working when a complete stranger comes up to you and says follow me what would you say.
I'd tell him to take a hike!
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This is what happened to the Apostles they dropped what they were doing and followed Christ the words follow me were a command not a request.
Sorry Dave, but this was provably a request and not a command. They always had freedom to go.
Apart from Judas, these were not unbelievers, but humble God fearing Jews, and as I said above, Jesus was calling them for service not salvation.

John's gospel shows that the disciples had complete freedom to walk away and stop following Jesus.-
John6v66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye go away also? 


If the twelve had no freewill about following Jesus, why did he ask if they were going to leave him?
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2019, 12:34:54 PM »
Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply very thought provoking I have read Romans 1 and find very little in it to negate what I have said except verse I.

. 1  Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God         

But as Paul states here he was called to be an Apostle not a disciple there is a difference an Apostle is one who is sent to preach the gospel to call disciples to follow Christ.

.     John 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.   [/color

This supports what I have said not what you have said.
If the Apostles were not saved his could Christ say the following.

      Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel   

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. Sorry Dave, but this was provably a request and not a command. They always had freedom to go.
Apart from Judas, these were not unbelievers, but humble God fearing Jews, and as I said above, Jesus was calling them for service not salvation         

You will need to prove it to me how on earth could they possibly know that the one who said to them follow me was the son of God
So why did they leave everything and followed Christ.

As for
.   66  From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 67  Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

 68  Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

 69  And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

 70  Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil         


I think St Peter answers your question and Christ again says he has chosen them.

Love and Peace
Dave




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