Author Topic: Predesdination  (Read 698 times)

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Offline John

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2019, 10:49:17 AM »

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Francis,
 Just what do these words mean then:-
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he, predestined, he also called, those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified

Then eph 1v 5:-
In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship
and v 11  In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.

We have, 'foreknew', 'predestined', 'called', 'chosen'
What does the words mean?

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Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2019, 03:08:59 PM »
Tes,
         You missed two vital choices.
Adam chose to eat the fruit.
He also chose not to confess when God challenged him.

Salvation was planned before creation, so God knew this would happen.


true

Offline davetaff

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2019, 11:42:15 AM »
Hi John
You said

Quote
.
We have, 'foreknew', 'predestined', 'called', 'chosen'
What does the words mean       

A lot depends on what Paul means by we and us dose this mean all believers or only those who are chosen as he was and the other Apostles those who were predestined to preach the word of God.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline francis drake

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2019, 03:26:07 PM »
Francis,
 Just what do these words mean then:-
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew
Everything hinges around this word, "foreknew, foreknowledge".
Foreknowledge refers to God, who dwells outside of time, knowing beforehand, prior to creation, every decision each man or woman would make in life.
In no way does foreknowledge imply that God forces those decisions on man, they are freely made decisions and entirely man's own choices.
But God, who dwells outside of time, knows every one of them in advance.

Thus God knew in advance every single man or woman who will surrender to the convicting power of the Holy Spirit, and welcome God within.
From that foreknowledge alone, all God's promises to his children spring.

Scripture does not say any man is predestined to say yes to God.
But once he says yes, he becomes a child of God. John1v12But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to be children of God?to those believing in His name,
And as a child of God, there is a plan prepared for him.
Quote
29. For those He foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son,
Again, this is only for God's own sons according to the Father's foreknowledge of that man's surrender to God's Spirit.
Quote
that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
The many brothers and sisters of that the Father foreknew.
Quote
30 And those he, predestined, he also called,
Those he foreknew he predestined and called to service.
Quote
those he called, he also justified;
Those he foreknew, he called and justified.
Quote
those he justified, he also glorified
Those he foreknew, he justified and glorified.
Quote


Then eph 1v 5:-
In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship
You've taken it out of context which obscures the real meaning. Here's the preceding verse.
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world for us to be holy and blameless before Him, in love
From this, you can see that again in His perfect foreknowledge, God chose all the men who were "in him", ie. those who had surrendered to His Spirit.
Quote
and v 11  In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.
So, having singled out ("chosen") those who were already his, the Father predestines them according to His master plan etc.

Quite simple really when you throw out Calvin's doctrine of demons.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline John

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2019, 04:57:06 PM »
Francis,
           Those same words can be understood to mean that it is God who choice us.
You understan them one way I another.
The main difference is that I give All the glory to God and you give some of the glory and responcibility to man.

Offline francis drake

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2019, 09:45:56 PM »
Francis,
           Those same words can be understood to mean that it is God who choice us.
You understan them one way I another.

When you interpret scripture, it has to marry in with the whole of scripture, not just thse few verses in isolation.
Your interpretation contradicts the whole narrative of scripture from end to end.

Everywhere in scripture, the Lord demands that man makes his own freewill decisions, and on the basis of those decisions, God takes action.

Your interpretation makes a complete nonsense of Paul's statements here.-
Romans1v18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, suppressing the truth by unrighteousness,
To suppress the truth, that truth must have been revealed to all men.

19because the known of God is manifest among them, for God has revealed it to them.
And here we see it confirmed that such truth about God has been revealed to them.

20For from the creation of the world His invisible qualities, both His eternal power and divinity, are clearly seen, being understood by the things made, for them to be without excuse.
Again this confirms that the eternal invisible God is clearly seen by every man.

If that were not true, then man would have a perfectly valid excuse before God at the last judgement.
Quote
The main difference is that I give All the glory to God and you give some of the glory and responcibility to man.
There's nothing glorious about the type of God you describe, a God with no mercy arbitrarily choosing to give life to some and consign the rest to punishment.

Your God contradicts much of his own scriptures.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2019, 05:34:23 PM »
Hi Frances
You said
Quote
Everywhere in scripture, the Lord demands that man makes his own freewill decisions, and on the basis of those decisions, God takes action.
   

I have done a word search for freewill and it only appeared in the OT for the temple sacrifices this of course could mean that God wants the freewill sacrifices of ourselves which makes sense.
Then we have the problem of Jonah he said no to God but God brought him back to do the work God wanted him to do so did God override his freewill.

Then we have this.

Joh 15:16  Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
       

To me this means Christ chose his Apostles they did not choose him in which case they had no choice so I stand by what I have said befor their are those who are chosen and there are those who are called two different groups those who are called make their own freewill choice and offer themselves to God.

Love and Peace
 Dave

Offline Nostalgia

Re: Predesdination
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2019, 07:04:33 PM »
Matthew 23:37

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