Author Topic: The Jewish community believed in baptism - so why do we need to be baptise - it  (Read 123 times)

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Offline Cf&ff

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The Jewish community believed in baptism - so why do we need to be baptised - it is seen as a commandment .



Offline Deborah

The Jewish community believed in baptism - so why do we need to be baptised - it is seen as a commandment .

In what sense did the Jews "believe in baptism"? It wasn't necessary for circumcised Jews to be baptised; baptism was part of the process by which a Gentile could become a Jew.
John the Baptist's teaching was therefore revolutionary - that Jews also needed cleansing from sin!

As for why we need to be baptised;
https://deborahsbiblestudies.wordpress.com/the-sacraments/baptism/
https://deborahsbiblestudies.wordpress.com/the-sacraments/baptism/
"Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God." (II Corinthians 7:1)

Offline francis drake

In what sense did the Jews "believe in baptism"? It wasn't necessary for circumcised Jews to be baptised; baptism was part of the process by which a Gentile could become a Jew.
John the Baptist's teaching was therefore revolutionary - that Jews also needed cleansing from sin!

As for why we need to be baptised;
https://deborahsbiblestudies.wordpress.com/the-sacraments/baptism/
Actually, baptism was well known and practised by the Jews, especially the Pharisees.

Mark7v3For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash the hands carefully, holding the tradition of the elders; 4and on coming from the market, they do not eat unless they wash (Greek- Baptise themselves); and there are many other things which they received, for them to hold to?washings of cups and vessels and utensils and couches for dining.

Throughout the land of Israel there can be found hundreds of ancient "Mikveh", or baptistry pools with steps going down, with water deep enough for complete immersion. These were used by Jews for ritual purification long before John the Baptist was born. He was merely making use of a long established process as an indication of repentance.
https://deborahsbiblestudies.wordpress.com/the-sacraments/baptism/
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Deborah

Baptism is understood as an initiation rite, though - a one-off. The regular ceremonial baths didn't have quite the same significance.

Quote
Mark7v3For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash the hands carefully, holding the tradition of the elders; 4and on coming from the market, they do not eat unless they wash (Greek- Baptise themselves); and there are many other things which they received, for them to hold to?washings of cups and vessels and utensils and couches for dining.

According to my Greek NT, the washing of the hands is nipto (wash), the washing of themselves is rhantiso (sprinkle), and the washing of the dishes and cups is baptizo (baptise = immerse). So no, they didn't baptise themselves every time they came back from the market!
"Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God." (II Corinthians 7:1)

Offline francis drake

Baptism is understood as an initiation rite, though - a one-off. The regular ceremonial baths didn't have quite the same significance.

According to my Greek NT, the washing of the hands is nipto (wash), the washing of themselves is rhantiso (sprinkle), and the washing of the dishes and cups is baptizo (baptise = immerse). So no, they didn't baptise themselves every time they came back from the market!
Sorry Deborah, you need to go back and read the Greek. The word baptism is unquestionably referring to full immersion of their own bodies.
That's why they've found so many Mikvehs/baptistry pools near the ancient dwellings. I doubt they washed their dishes in them!
You should also know that the tradition is also carried forward to the orthodox Jews today.

Additionally the verse makes no sense that they would immerse/wash/baptise their dishes because they've returned from the market!

You can check it here on Biblehub's interlinear page for that verse.-
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/mark/7-4.htm

You will see that although most translations use wash for that particular word, the Greek says baptisōntai, which at every other location is written as baptise, meaning full immersion.
Either John simply washed people, and Jesus commanded us to simply wash, or baptism means full immersion in all places.
You can't pick and choose.
Simply put, John the baptist didn't invent baptism!

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/mark/7-4.htm
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Deborah

Sorry Deborah, you need to go back and read the Greek. The word baptism is unquestionably referring to full immersion of their own bodies.


We are using different Greek texts! My version differs from yours here - 'baptizo' is not used in my version for the personal washing.

Do remember that 'baptizo' was a perfectly everyday word for 'immerse in water', i.e. 'wash'. It doesn't mean 'baptise' in every context. They washed dishes, they didn't baptise them!
"Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God." (II Corinthians 7:1)

Offline francis drake

We are using different Greek texts! My version differs from yours here - 'baptizo' is not used in my version for the personal washing.

Do remember that 'baptizo' was a perfectly everyday word for 'immerse in water', i.e. 'wash'.

Immersing in water is what I said to you is it not? But that is very different from mere washing which can be done under a tap or water poured from a jug.

Then add the context which states that it happened after they came home from the market, where they mixed with the great unwashed.
Then add the fact that the verse also included the Greek nipto for normal hand washing, we see that full immersion was a religious necessity not just for meals, but whenever they became ritually unclean.

Mark7v3For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash (Greek- nipto) the hands carefully, holding the tradition of the elders; 4and on coming from the market, they do not eat unless they wash (Greek- Baptise themselves); and there are many other things which they received, for them to hold to washings (Greek- Baptise) of cups and vessels and utensils and couches for dining.

Quote
It doesn't mean 'baptise' in every context. They washed dishes, they didn't baptise them!

You cannot escape the fact that baptise means full immersion. (Whether for pots or people.)
You cannot escape the recorded historic fact that they ritually underwent full immersion...???..after contact with the unclean at the market place.
You cannot escape the fact that the Pharisees had mikveh/baptism pools by their dwellings with steps down for full immersion.
You cannot escape the fact that religious Jews still continue the same practices today.
You cannot escape the fact that the Pharisees used ceremonial baptism at the various stages of entry or advancement in their various sects, or consecration into the priesthood.
You cannot escape the fact that the very name Pharisee means a separated one, hence the emphasis on washings.


Finally, you cannot escape the fact that John did not invent baptism, but merely made use of an existing and well known ritual of full bodily immersion.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

Hi
Just wondering does water baptism have any value at all John the Baptist said.

. Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire       

The one who came after him of course was Christ so what was the baptism of Christ how do we acquire it I say it's by being washed ( baptised ) with the water of the word of God this is what cleanses the inside of the cup.
This is the baptism of great worth it is a spiritual baptism the receiving of the spirit with fire.

Love and Peace
Dave