Author Topic: Re: Violation of our will  (Read 308 times)

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Offline davetaff

Re: Violation of our will
« on: June 02, 2018, 04:44:59 PM »

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Hi Tes
You said
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though God will never force a person against their will   


On what scripture do you base this statement I cant think of any off hand.


Love and Peace

Dave



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Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Re: Violation of our will
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2018, 12:39:51 AM »

Aye, you missed

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Or Jonah changed his mind..or a mixture of both [though God will never force a person against their will - He can change their will]  but that's another topic

Okay lets take this to another topic and maybe focus on the Pharoah of egypt and the hardening of his heart.... as in Exodus 9:12  But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.


Which is the typical scriptural argument for God changing hearts...

Lets begin anither topic ....


Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Violation of our will
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2018, 01:09:26 AM »
So did God harden Pharoah's heart or did pharoah harden his [  we  can now only use   scripture  ....]

Unless you have a life experience - that speaks otherwise...










Offline davetaff

Re: Violation of our will
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2018, 11:33:17 AM »
Hi Tes
Thank you for my thread yes God hardens pharaohs heart what does that mean exactly was pharaoh prepared to let Israel go before all the plagues were finished if so then God overruled his freewill but that is speculation.

I believe God hardens pharaohs heart to show who he was the ruler of all creation the final plague was to show there is a difference between the world and God's chosen people

You speak of your personal experience I don't have a problem with that it's like I have said all along God chooses certain individuals for specific purposes the rest of us choose God through them.

Love and Peace
Dave


Offline francis drake

Re: Violation of our will
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2018, 01:23:49 PM »
As always, scripture is taken out of context to prove invalid arguments.

Quoting verses in isolation, it could be interpreted that Pharaoh had a soft heart, but God interfered and made it rock hard, however the full story lays that responsibility entirely at Pharaoh's own feet.
So lets take it verse by verse.
Ex7v3?But I will harden Pharaoh?s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.


But after the initial miracle that Moses performed, turning his staff into a serpent, Pharaoh's magicians did the same, and........
13Yet Pharaoh?s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

Moses did more miracles and.........
22But the magicians of Egypt did the same with their secret arts; and Pharaoh?s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

Then came the plague of frogs, which the magicians could not stop, so Pharaoh pleaded with Moses to remove them...........
8v15But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Take note that Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

Then the plague of gnats...........
8v19Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, ?This is the finger of God.? But Pharaoh?s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Pharaoh refused to listen to his own pagan magicians!

Then the plague of flies on the Egyptian's houses alone, not the Hebrew houses.
v30So Moses went out from Pharaoh and made supplication to the LORD. 31The LORD did as Moses asked, and removed the swarms of flies from Pharaoh, from his servants and from his people; not one remained. 32But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go.
Take note here, it explicitly states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Take note of the additional word "also" in that verse. This tells us that its the same as what had happened previously when it simply told us that Pharaoh's heart was hardened, ie. it was hardened each time by his own freewill rebellion against God.

Then the Lord plagues the Egyptian livestock.
9v6So the LORD did this thing on the next day, and all the livestock of Egypt died; but of the livestock of the sons of Israel, not one died. 7Pharaoh sent, and behold, there was not even one of the livestock of Israel dead. But the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.

Then the plague of dust that turned into boils.
v12And the LORD hardened Pharaoh?s heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

Then we have a clear and concise statement from the Lord against Pharaoh....
v13Then the LORD said to Moses, ?Rise up early in the morning and stand before Pharaoh and say to him, ?Thus says the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, ?Let My people go, that they may serve Me. 14?For this time I will send all My plagues on you and your servants and your people, so that you may know that there is no one like Me in all the earth. 15?For if by now I had put forth My hand and struck you and your people with pestilence, you would then have been cut off from the earth. 16?But, indeed, for this reason I have allowed you to remain, in order to show you My power and in order to proclaim My name through all the earth. 17?Still you exalt yourself against My people by not letting them go.
This shows that it is Pharaoh himself who is exalting himself against God. If God was responsible for forcing Pharaoh to make decisions against God, then this verse shows that God is a liar and a fraud. Pharaoh alone is to blame for his bad choices.

The the plague of hail and fire etc on man and beast of Egypt.
Pharaoh again pleaded with Moses to call a halt........
v34But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned again and hardened his heart, he and his servants. 35Pharaoh?s heart was hardened, and he did not let the sons of Israel go, just as the LORD had spoken through Moses.
So who hardened whose heart? Again it was Pharaoh's freewill decision to sin against God, just as God knew he would.

Now those who are blind will surely leap on the following as proof that God forced evil decisions on Pharaoh..............
10v1Then the LORD said to Moses, ?Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them, 2and that you may tell in the hearing of your son, and of your grandson, how I made a mockery of the Egyptians and how I performed My signs among them, that you may know that I am the LORD.?

But the interpretation of the above is revealed in the next verses.
v3Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said to him, ?Thus says the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, ?How long will you refuse to humble yourself before Me? Let My people go, that they may serve Me.
This makes it plain that refusing to humble himself before the Lord was Pharaoh's own choice. God cannot lay responsibility onto Pharaoh himself for having a proud and hard heart, if God had forced that upon him.
Make your choice, is God a liar or not, because if God lays blame on anyone, he can only do so if that man has a free choice!

Then the plague of locusts............
v16Then Pharaoh hurriedly called for Moses and Aaron, and he said, ?I have sinned against the LORD your God and against you.
Pharaoh himself acknowledges it was his own decision, so why do people keep claiming God made him do it....

17?Now therefore, please forgive my sin only this once, and make supplication to the LORD your God, that He would only remove this death from me.? 18He went out from Pharaoh and made supplication to the LORD. 19So the LORD shifted the wind to a very strong west wind which took up the locusts and drove them into the Red Sea; not one locust was left in all the territory of Egypt. 20But the LORD hardened Pharaoh?s heart, and he did not let the sons of Israel go.

Then the plague of darkness............
v27But the LORD hardened Pharaoh?s heart, and he was not willing to let them go. 28Then Pharaoh said to him, ?Get away from me! Beware, do not see my face again, for in the day you see my face you shall die!? 29Moses said, ?You are right; I shall never see your face again!?

Then the death of Egypt's firstborn, men, cattle, and beast.
v9Then the LORD said to Moses, ?Pharaoh will not listen to you, so that My wonders will be multiplied in the land of Egypt.? 10Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh; yet the LORD hardened Pharaoh?s heart, and he did not let the sons of Israel go out of his land.

Despite the death of all the first born Pharaoh still had fight in him.
8The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and he chased after the sons of Israel as the sons of Israel were going out boldly.
Obviously this is the army that perished in the sea as the Lord finished his judgement against Egypt.

So we have a mixture of words here were Pharaoh hardens his own heart, God hardens it, and it seems to become hardened by itself, all of which has to be taken as a whole and in context.
It states clearly that God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but that isn't the same as God removing his freewill. All it means is that God faced Pharaoh with situations where he had to make freewill choices, either to obey the Lord or rebel.
Knowing the end from the beginning, God knew exactly how Pharaoh would respond. And as with all mankind, each time you refuse God, your heart becomes harder. So the Lord kept upping the stakes and Pharaoh kept hardening against God. So yes, God clearly hardened Pharaoh's heart, but, as the context reveals, never by removing his freewill.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Violation of our will
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2018, 01:44:28 AM »
That's the argument  :D



Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Violation of our will
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2018, 01:52:45 AM »
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though God will never force a person against their will

Not sure why I typed that - maybe it is more about relationship - but to be honest the further I go with God in my own experience "the more I seem out of control" and I see things that happen which are from the spiritual"

One example maybe from scripture would be john  sent to the isle of patmos [so who's Will is this under ?]

Bearijg in mind in this experience [of life]it brought about the book of revelation... and God's revelation.


During this violation of john's will - Giod used this experience...



Paul while being blinded on the road to patmos - was overrtaken by  being "made to see again"

What vilolations of a persons will ... hope you get the drift

Maybe they should have sued - God [ahh I cannot sue spirit]

[not to mention Ananias and Saphira and their death "I am sure they did not want to die - quite so soon"


Now in the court we bring in all factors to try to find the guilty party..

Maybe it was John and his actions...maybe it was "the enemy [satan and his hordes]  .....maybe it was the ruling government at that time.... or maybe God allowed it ...

Other examples of violation are my being dead as in lazarus - but being raised back to life...

Battles being fought - but God deciding the winning army  ... etc etc


How dare God interfere in our battle ...




Yes I am now arguing the opposite - that God can violate a persons [or groups] will...

You have to prove me wrong...


I mean - God changed history [His - Story] all the time by interupting time and space...


Did David's son die because of sin or because of God interrupting in David's time and life ?

Davids son died because he slept with bathsheba and a judgement was performed [violation] of a will...







Offline francis drake

Re: Violation of our will
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2018, 02:57:46 PM »


Not sure why I typed that - maybe it is more about relationship - but to be honest the further I go with God in my own experience "the more I seem out of control" and I see things that happen which are from the spiritual"
You make the mistake of confusing violation of our will by God, and the regular violation of our will by other people such as legal or illegal authorities.

If we surrender our lives to the Lord, and regularly declare, "Thy will be done" in prayer or worship, as I am sure you do, then we cannot pretend when God changes our circumstances that he has somehow violated our will!
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One example maybe from scripture would be john  sent to the isle of patmos [so who's Will is this under ?]
John was exiled to Patmos by the Roman authorities. What's so puzzling about that Tes?
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Bearijg in mind in this experience [of life]it brought about the book of revelation... and God's revelation.


During this violation of john's will - Giod used this experience...
I say again that John's will was not violated by God, which is what this thread is about!
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Paul while being blinded on the road to Patmos - was overtaken by  being "made to see again"
The subject of Paul Damascus Road experience maybe needs a whole thread itself. But basically, Paul was raised as a Pharisee at the feet of Gamaliel. Gamaliel, clearly a believer, was one of the defenders of the apostles at their inquisition by the Sanhedrin. Paul himself states that he was a God fearing believing Jew, but caught up in legalism and as such, persecuted the followers of Jesus.
Acts23v1Paul looked straight at the Sanhedrin and said, "My brothers, I have fulfilled my duty to God in all good conscience to this day."
This is similar to born again but legalistic Christians who through the ages have persecuted spirit filled Christians and even had them put to death.
Even Calvin had one of his fellow theologians put to death because he objected to his doctrine!

Thus the Damascus Road event was of God disciplining one of his own errant sons, not forcing an unregenerate man to become born again.
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What violations of a persons will ... hope you get the drift
A very silly and nonsensical drift.
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Maybe they should have sued - God [ahh I cannot sue spirit]
For what, doing what they had asked him to do?
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[not to mention Ananias and Saphira and their death "I am sure they did not want to die - quite so soon"


Now in the court we bring in all factors to try to find the guilty party..
You seem to be completely oblivious of the Father/son relationship that scripture reveals.
Heb12v8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
If we walk as His sons, then we should also expect God to walk as our Father.
Ananias and Sapphira had just witnessed the most powerful outpouring of God on earth in thousands of years, and yet still decided to bring Satan's deception into the fellowship. God dealt with it swiftly.
This is almost identical to what happened at Jericho when Achan similarly witnessed the massive outpouring of God's power on earth, and yet still decided to bring Satan's deception into the camp, likewise God swiftly dealt with it.
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Maybe it was John and his actions...maybe it was "the enemy [satan and his hordes]  .....maybe it was the ruling government at that time.... or maybe God allowed it ...

Other examples of violation are my being dead as in lazarus - but being raised back to life...
Come on Tes, think man!
You should read the Gospel story in context before posting. Do you imagine somehow that Lazarus wanted to die? Did the sisters violate his freewill sending a message to Jesus?
John11v3So the sisters sent word to Jesus, ?Lord, the one you love is sick...............
v5Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. ?

All three of them were disciples and followers of Jesus. Jesus set off to heal Lazarus, but delayed his arrival sufficiently so the miracle was even greater.
Please explain where anybody's freewill was violated!

God frequently interferes in the affairs of earth on behalf of his children. However he ensures that men, such as Pharaoh, still retain sufficient freewill that God cannot be blamed for their evil decisions.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

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