Author Topic: Fate of unbelief  (Read 2745 times)

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Offline davetaff

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Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #72 on: May 27, 2018, 02:53:55 PM »

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You've grabbed the wrong end of the stick Dave. Of course Judas was chosen for a purpose in the ministry of Jesus, but his rebellion against God was entirely of his own freewill.

God of course knew the end from the beginning and was therefore able to make use of Judas's rebellion for His own purposes.

Hi Frances
Of course Judas was chosen he was chosen for a purpose which was fulfil this prophecy

Psa 41:9  Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.     

It was essential that there had to be a judas this is why he was chosen he was not Called did he betray Jesus of his own freewill I have no Idea that's not the point of this discussion is it what is the Point is Christ chose Judas judas did not choose Christ.


The other thing maybe we should bare in mind is satan entered Judas so did Judas betray Christ of his own freewill or did Satan take over and make him do what he did jest a question not a statement.


Love and Peace
Dave

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Offline francis drake

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #73 on: May 28, 2018, 06:07:41 PM »
Hi Frances
Of course Judas was chosen he was chosen for a purpose which was fulfil this prophecy

Psa 41:9  Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.     

It was essential that there had to be a judas this is why he was chosen he was not Called did he betray Jesus of his own freewill I have no Idea that's not the point of this discussion is it what is the Point is Christ chose Judas judas did not choose Christ.


The other thing maybe we should bare in mind is satan entered Judas so did Judas betray Christ of his own freewill or did Satan take over and make him do what he did jest a question not a statement.
For goodness sake Dave, go back and read my posts from the start and you will see that I have never challenged that the apostles, including Judas were chosen. My whole point is about the apostles still having freewill.

This interchange between you and me started because you said the following.-
"Let's put it this way say you are in your garden working and a complete stranger walks up to you and says follow me what would you do most probably tell him to get lost
But the apostles dropped everything left everything and followed Christ why I would say they had no choice there were disciples who left him but none of the apostles.
What I am saying in effect is that Christ overrode their freewill"

Your problem Dave is that if Christ truly over rode Judas's freewill, then Judas cannot legally be guilty of betraying Jesus.

The truth is that Judas made his own choice to betray Jesus. Judas was in the midst of all the miracles, yet his heart was hard.
Look at the sequence of events here.-

John13v2And supper taking place, the devil already having put into the heart of Judas son of Simon Iscariot that he should betray Him, .......................

Judas was already in rebellion against what the Lord and therefore a willing subject to do Satan's dirty work.
21Having said these things, Jesus was troubled in spirit, and He testified and said, ?Truly, truly, I say to you that one of you will betray Me.?
22The disciples began to look upon one another, being uncertain of whom He is speaking. 23There was reclining one of His disciples whom Jesus loved in the bosom of Jesus. 24Therefore Simon Peter motions to him, to ask who it is about whom He is speaking? 25Then he thus having leaned on the breast of Jesus, says to Him, ?Lord, who is it??
26Then Jesus answers, ?It is he to whom I will dip the morsel and will give him.? Then having dipped the morsel, He takes it and gives it to Judas, son of Simon Iscariot. 27And after the morsel, then Satan entered into him.


Judas was a willing participant of Satan's plan to kill Jesus. God knew Judas's rebellious heart from the beginning and used him to fulfill that role.
At no time was Judas compelled by Jesus to betray him.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

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Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #74 on: May 29, 2018, 04:20:41 PM »
Hi Frances
Sorry I misunderstood you I never realised you had changed the subject to the question of freewill its interesting to note that the only time the word freewill is used is in relation to the temple and the gifts given to it.

So on what scriptures do you base your belief that God dose not override some peoples free will and use them for his own purposes I believe we see this all the way through scripture.

You Said
Quote
Judas was a willing participant of Satan's plan to kill Jesus. God knew Judas's rebellious heart from the beginning and used him to fulfill that role.
At no time was Judas compelled by Jesus to betray him. 
 

I can agree with this and at no time have I said that Christ compelled Judas to betray him that's unthinkable but may be satan did.
another thing to remember is Judas repented of what he did and returned the thirty pieces of silver do you think the blood of Christ was enough to forgive him.


Love and Peace
Dave

Offline francis drake

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #75 on: May 29, 2018, 10:54:25 PM »
Hi Frances
Sorry I misunderstood you I never realised you had changed the subject to the question of freewill its interesting to note that the only time the word freewill is used is in relation to the temple and the gifts given to it.
Come on Dave, the fact that the word "Freewill" is only used in relation to the temple is a very weak argument against the freewill that God grants us.
There are many other words such as "Trinity" which are also not found!
Quote
So on what scriptures do you base your belief that God dose not override some peoples free will and use them for his own purposes I believe we see this all the way through scripture.
If we have no freewill choices, then the constant admonition to obey the Lord as found in scripture makes no sense whatsoever.

Quote
I can agree with this and at no time have I said that Christ compelled Judas to betray him that's unthinkable but may be satan did.
Scripture states that Satan put thoughts into Judas's mind, it then also states that Satan entered him. ie. Satan still needed Judas's consent.
From many decades of doing deliverance from demons on Christians this is how demons work. They put ideas into people's minds, and when that person agrees with the demonic intent, the demon gains entry, and starts to gain influence and degrees of control.
Quote

another thing to remember is Judas repented of what he did and returned the thirty pieces of silver do you think the blood of Christ was enough to forgive him.
Scripture doesn't say that Judas repented of his guilt before God, he just repented of taking the money for betraying Jesus. Scripture shows that he was the "Son of Perdition" and was "lost", ie eternally damned.
"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished except the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

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Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #76 on: May 30, 2018, 09:42:43 AM »
Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply we also need to remember the difference between an apostle and a disciple a disciple is one who follows a apostle is one who is sent if he is sent someone most send him give him a command do you think the apostles could have refused to go.
I am not saying there is no freewill all the disciples used it to accept or reject Christ freewill is essential if we are to love God as he wants us to.
What I am saying there are certain people whom God has chosen to do certain things to further his plan it you don't believe me read the story of Jonah he tried to refuse but God brought him back and used him to preach to Nineveh.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline davetaff

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Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #77 on: May 30, 2018, 06:05:24 PM »
Hi Frances
Just had a thought about the freewill offerings to the temple our temple is the body of  Christ and the freewill offering we bring to it is our love for God and our fellow man.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline John

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #78 on: May 30, 2018, 06:14:46 PM »
Don't forget Dave that the freewill offering was only made after the compulsory sacrifical offerings had been made. It was something over and above what was legaly required.

That was for the Hebrews, we aren't expected to offer sacrifices to God, but if a freewill offering doesn't cost us, is it an offering worth recieving. By that I'm not talking ?'s but behaviour, attitude and love shown to others.

Offline davetaff

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Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #79 on: June 01, 2018, 01:30:28 PM »
Don't forget Dave that the freewill offering was only made after the compulsory sacrifical offerings had been made. It was something over and above what was legaly required.

That was for the Hebrews, we aren't expected to offer sacrifices to God, but if a freewill offering doesn't cost us, is it an offering worth recieving. By that I'm not talking ?'s but behaviour, attitude and love shown to others.

Hi John
Thank you for your reply and pointing out that the freewill offering came after all the legal requirements had been made we are reminded that now we are not under the law but under grace.
But we can still make a freewill offering to our temple the body of Christ an offering of the most precious commodity in the universe love.

Love and Peace
Dave

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