Author Topic: Fate of unbelief  (Read 2892 times)

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Offline davetaff

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2018, 05:25:25 PM »

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Dave,
         re read what you've written:- "On the other hand we have all those who have never heard of him or his son to condemn them without a fair opportunity to come to know him would be unjust."

Who have written that it would be unjust for God to condemn those who do not believe.
This is what John3:18 says that they are already condemned, it is not a future event is is their current state, it is why the nonchristian is also known as 'the Lost'.

Hi John
Tell me then how can anyone believe in someone the have never heard of those who have never heard of Christ are not unbelievers they are don't knows they are ignorant.
To believe in something or someone you must know that it or them exist then you can become an unbeliever that's a persons choice.

Love and Peace
Dave

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Offline John

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #49 on: May 14, 2018, 05:43:38 PM »
Dave,
           All of creation tells everyone that there is a God. Jesus told us that those who seek will find, that those who knock the door will be opened.
No one has any excuse for not searching for God.

Lastly ignorance is not an excuse  in any legal system.

Offline John

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #50 on: May 15, 2018, 10:28:27 AM »
Another thought.
                               Very few people want to be 'saved', they are happy as they are, their lives are comfortable and change is too challenging.

if you don't believe me, ask a neighbour or work colleague. 'What is sin and who is a sinner'  Most will identify sin as a grievous criminal act and will not see that they are a sinner.
Like the rich young ruler, they believe that they are doing plenty of 'good works' and don't see the need to surrender to Jesus. If challenged like the ruler they will walk away rather than change.


Offline davetaff

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #51 on: May 15, 2018, 11:13:59 AM »
Dave,
           All of creation tells everyone that there is a God. Jesus told us that those who seek will find, that those who knock the door will be opened.
No one has any excuse for not searching for God.

Lastly ignorance is not an excuse  in any legal system.

Hi John
Thanks for your reply I thought we had covered this point the passage you are referring to is about those who know the truth.
The seeking and finding were would one seek we have not always had Google or bibles for that matter years ago most people lived in isolation could neither read nor write how could they look at nature and then seek the God of the bible and jesus.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline John

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #52 on: May 15, 2018, 12:23:11 PM »
No Dave,
 it hasn't been dealt with, because of your understanding of Romans 1.since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God?s invisible qualities?his eternal power and divine nature?have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

As it says  in v 20 God can be clearly seen in creation.

As for people living in isolation, nothing could be further than the truth. People lived in communities, sharing their labour, depending on the skills of local craftsmen and meeting together for social occasions.
Life was hard for those in pre industrial times and they worked together as the proverb says, many hands make light work.

Yes many could not read or write, so what, that is not the only measure of intelligence. They would know their world intimatly and would have an extensive knowledge of it, of what they could use and how to use it.

Offline davetaff

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #53 on: May 15, 2018, 02:29:09 PM »
No Dave,
 it hasn't been dealt with, because of your understanding of Romans 1.since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God?s invisible qualities?his eternal power and divine nature?have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

As it says  in v 20 God can be clearly seen in creation.

As for people living in isolation, nothing could be further than the truth. People lived in communities, sharing their labour, depending on the skills of local craftsmen and meeting together for social occasions.
Life was hard for those in pre industrial times and they worked together as the proverb says, many hands make light work.

Yes many could not read or write, so what, that is not the only measure of intelligence. They would know their world intimatly and would have an extensive knowledge of it, of what they could use and how to use it.

Hi John
Thanks for your reply I see you have only posted part of the above scripture but is we take a little more we will see who is being spoken about.

as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21  Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
     


In V18 we see that this section is aimed at men who hold the truth in unrighteousness what truth are they holding I say it is the truth and Knowledge of God.
in V21 it states that they new God but did not glorify him The only ones who new about God at this time was Israel and a relatively small number of Gentiles the rest of the world did not have a clue.
what you are saying is the rest of the world could know everything there was to know about God by looking at Gods creation for example How do you think that those living in the far reaches of the world could acquire knowledge of God.
There world was what they could see they had no idea the world was round and orbited the sun the thought the world was flat they had no idea there was people living on the other side of the world.
It was only those who had a knowledge of God who could accept or reject him St Paul is using creation to prove Gods existence to those who knew of him.

Love and Peace
Dave   

Offline John

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #54 on: May 16, 2018, 04:46:26 PM »
Dave,
              This is all about whether God is just and whether you trust in Gods judgement.
Do you really know better than God about the knowledge unbelievers have about him, about what effort they did or didnpt put into searching for him.

Do you really believe that God would not respond to someones ernest searching and enquiries?

Everyone worships something, therefore everyone is distorting the truth about God if they are not worshiping him.


Offline davetaff

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #55 on: May 17, 2018, 02:35:18 PM »
Dave,
              This is all about whether God is just and whether you trust in Gods judgement.
Do you really know better than God about the knowledge unbelievers have about him, about what effort they did or didnpt put into searching for him.

Do you really believe that God would not respond to someones ernest searching and enquiries?

Everyone worships something, therefore everyone is distorting the truth about God if they are not worshiping him.

Hi John
Thanks for your reply of course God is just and yes I do trust him and his judgements no I do not know better than God.
A person who has never heard of God cannot be an unbeliever to believe in something you have to know what it is which means someone has to explain it to you either God who done it through Israel or his messengers who do it through his Spirit and his word.
 
Quote
Do you really believe that God would not respond to someones ernest searching and enquiries?
     

Of course God would respond but then that person would have to know who they were searching for man has found thousands of different gods but the one true God they needed to be told about.
Of course there are exceptions to every rule there are those who are chosen by God for specific purposes Noah Abraham Moses Aaron all the prophets the first three Kings of Israel and Christ 12 apostles all these were chosen by God to further his plan of creation.
through all these the many are called and all those who are called have to make a choice.

Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen.
     
 

I consider myself one of the Called God did not choose me I chose God but even in this day and age there are those who are chosen but they are relatively few.

Love and Peace
Dave

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