Author Topic: Fate of unbelief  (Read 2893 times)

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Offline davetaff

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2018, 02:54:16 PM »

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Hi John
Thank you for your reply you said

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God does not have to save anyone. We all deserve his judgement.
God shows love in not judging us and allowing us to live in his creation. As Romans 2:4 say do we presume upon the riches of his kindness and mercy, don't we realise that his kindness is meant to lead us to salvation.     

You still seam to be saying Gods judgement is always negative it can only mean death and destruction.
Mankind is the crowning glory of his creation and in the beginning he has told us he will create us in his image and this will be realised in Christ and Christ is our salvation.

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You have things the wrong way round, looking at it from our view point.
Look at it from the point of an infinite Holy God. Our little sins are an infinite offence to an infinite Holy God and our hatred of him is worse.   

I think I have them the right way round as for our sins big and small these are covered with the blood of Christ and if we Love as he commands us.

1 Peter 4:8
Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.
Heb 10:17  And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
   


So our sins are not an offence becouse he dose not see them.

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From this view God is showing emence love and grace in letting us live.
     

God is love God lets us live because he has not finished his creation it is still on going it will be finished when Christ is united with his bride the church and they become one this is man (mankind) in Gods image created in Love.

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You cannot have it both ways Dave. Either we are responcible for responding to God and responcible for the consquence of not responding   

Of course we are responsable for responding to Gods message the gospel and to respond to it we must hear it and have it explaind to us and there are billions who have never heard it so can't posibly respond to it.
So what I believe is during the millenium they will have an opertunity to hear the gospel yes there will be those who refuse to accept it and thier fate is the second death which is eternal they will have no conceous state.

 
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God over rides our will and saves those he has chosen before creation, leaving those he hasn't chosen to an eturnity with out God.
Either way you still have the consquence of not being a Christian.

That consquence is an eternal separation from God i.e. hell.     

As for this statement I don't believe a word of it.

Love and Peace
Dave



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Offline John

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2018, 07:26:24 AM »
Dave,
          "You still seam to be saying Gods judgement is always negative it can only mean death and destruction.
Mankind is the crowning glory of his creation and in the beginning he has told us he will create us in his image and this will be realised in Christ and Christ is our salvation."

Without Jesus God's judgement is negative. We are only Gods crowning glory if we are in Christ.

What happens to those who have not accepted Jesus as Lord and saviour.

"I think I have them the right way round as for our sins big and small these are covered with the blood of Christ and if we Love as he commands us."

This is true only if they are covered by the blood of Jesus.
1cor3: For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person?s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved?even though only as one escaping through the flames.
says that some Christians lives will not gain a reward in heaven, their lifestyle, lack of God honouring work will shame them. That is our sinful lives lived now.

"God is love God lets us live because he has not finished his creation "

Yes God is love and his love is seen in his delaying of judgement.  You forget that God would be perfectly just and fair and loving if he ended the world Now.
We cannot presume upon God love and kindness to us.

"So what I believe is during the millenium they will have an opertunity to hear the gospel yes there will be those who refuse to accept it and thier fate is the second death which is eternal they will have no conceous state."

This is your unbiblical belief based on your refusal to face the consquences of people not believing in God, even though the universe shouts out that there is a God. Ignorance is not an excuse.

Not believing in hell is not an issue that affect your salvation, but is one that can affect anyone you are witnessing to.
You will teach them there is no eturnity of regret, no punishment for their rejection of God and give them the false hope that they will have a second chance after death.

This is no where taught in scripture, the message is always today is the day of salvation and necer tomorrow or in the after life.

Is fear of punishment a good reason for believe?
Well is fear of punishment a good reason for good behaviour anywhere for that is used in society.

Offline davetaff

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2018, 02:30:28 PM »
Hi John
Thanks for the reply but it seams you are only looking at the negative side death destruction but what about the good side what about Love should this be the main thrust of the church.
I don't believe you can say to anyone if you don't love me I will burn you alive or torment you for ever so you have to love me and obey me or else, I'm sorry John but this is not the gospel message.
   
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Yes God is love and his love is seen in his delaying of judgement.  You forget that God would be perfectly just and fair and loving if he ended the world Now.
We cannot presume upon God love and kindness to us.   

No John God would not be fair he would be no different to any other tyrant or dictator who says do as I tell you or I will Kill you.
Yes we can presume on Gods loving kindness because he has given us his word that through his Son Jesus Christ he would save us.
   
Gen 1:26  And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth     

This verse quoted has not been achieved as yet but will be realised in Christ.

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Not believing in hell is not an issue that affect your salvation, but is one that can affect anyone you are witnessing to.
You will teach them there is no eturnity of regret, no punishment for their rejection of God and give them the false hope that they will have a second chance after death.
   

You keep saying second chance but like I have said before for most people it will be their first chance most people have never heard of Jesus so cant possibly have faith in him looking at creation and saying there must be a God is not enough.
that's why mankind has invented hundreds of different gods from the beginning of time

Love and Peace
Dave

 

Offline John

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #43 on: May 13, 2018, 01:52:45 PM »
 Dave,
            Read John 3:16-18. What is the result of not believing in Jesus?


Offline davetaff

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #44 on: May 13, 2018, 02:50:39 PM »
Dave,
            Read John 3:16-18. What is the result of not believing in Jesus?

Hi John
I have read it many times but for those who haven't here it is.

Joh 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17  For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18  He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
   


We have to believe in Christ to be saved that's not in dispute, He did not come to condemn the world but to save the world what dose that mean to me it means to save the world not jest a handful of people.
V18 if we believe in the Son of God and all he has done we will be saved to everlasting life.
Then we have those who don't believe who are they, they can only be those who have been instructed in the gospel and rejected it they are condemned to the second death.

then we have all those who have never heard the gospel who have no idea who Christ is or what he has done how can they possibly believe and have faith in Christ.
Do you think it would be fair for the God of Love to condemn all these people because they are ignorant of his dear son.

Love and Peace
Dave
     

Offline John

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2018, 03:04:58 PM »
Dave,
         "Then we have those who don't believe who are they, they can only be those who have been instructed in the gospel and rejected it they are condemned to the second death.

then we have all those who have never heard the gospel who have no idea who Christ is or what he has done how can they possibly believe and have faith in Christ.
Do you think it would be fair for the God of Love to condemn all these people because they are ignorant of his dear son."

It plainly says that those who do not believe in Jesus are condemned, When, at the day of judgement, No it says already, that is now in their state of not believing now.


Again Dave you are saying that God is not just. Either he is just or he isn't either way you are not going to change God.

You have to decide is God just and as he is accept that his judgement of those who do not believe is also just.

Offline davetaff

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2018, 04:11:26 PM »
Hi John
Thanks for your reply you said.

Quote
Again Dave you are saying that God is not just. Either he is just or he isn't either way you are not going to change God.

You have to decide is God just and as he is accept that his judgement of those who do not believe is also just.     

No John I am not saying god is unjust what I am saying is when God judges those who have been instructed in the scriptures and have rejected him and his son then his judgement is Just.
On the other hand we have all those who have never heard of him or his son to condemn them without a fair opportunity to come to know him would be unjust.
We need to remember God Loves sinners as well as saints Christ died for everyone he will do everything in his power to save as many as possible.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline John

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2018, 04:50:07 PM »
Dave,
         re read what you've written:- "On the other hand we have all those who have never heard of him or his son to condemn them without a fair opportunity to come to know him would be unjust."

Who have written that it would be unjust for God to condemn those who do not believe.
This is what John3:18 says that they are already condemned, it is not a future event is is their current state, it is why the nonchristian is also known as 'the Lost'.

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