Author Topic: Fate of unbelief  (Read 2148 times)

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Offline davetaff

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Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2018, 04:15:18 PM »

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Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply but I don't find it very convincing  the scriptures make it quite plain that Paul is speaking about those who know the truth Jew or Gentiles is irrelevant.Love
So those he is speaking about have been instructed in the scriptures and rejected it so Paul points them to the proof of creation and to the God who had created everything in heaven and earth.

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.   As can be seen, all men from creation onwards have been able to see the handiwork of the creator     

This is true but how would they know which God had created everything mankind has had no end of God's for everything under and including the sun but the God of the bible they have not known.
The only ones who was given this knowledge is Israel and then Christians and there were not many of them when Romans was written.

Are you asking me to believe that the natives of North and South America and Australia and the Eskimos etc  5000 years ago could learn everything they needed to know by looking at nature they may possibly have come to the conclusion that a god had created something but the God of the bible they could not possibly know.

Love and Peace
Dave

 

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Offline John

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2018, 05:21:44 PM »
Dave,
           You assume that God will not know or have planned for those who have never heard, but who are searching for God and that he will not and cannot make himself known to them.

It is God who saves, there are plenty of stories of muslims, who've never read the bible, having dreams about Jesus and finding out about him without any missionary or preacher.

That is God's grace to them. His command to us is to teach the world about Jesus etc.

Those who died thousands of years ago or who died yesterday are dead. We can do Nothing for them.
The truths in the bible are eternal truths. They didn't become true when someone wrote them down.

Faithfull Jews in isreal following the mosaic rules and laws were saved not by there following thos regulation but by the blood of Jesus applied to them because of their faith and trust in God.

Offline francis drake

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2018, 10:20:55 PM »
Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply but I don't find it very convincing  the scriptures make it quite plain that Paul is speaking about those who know the truth Jew or Gentiles is irrelevant.Love
Unbiblical falsehood.
Previously you claimed that Paul is speaking to Jews who already know the scriptures, when I proved they were Gentiles not Jews, you then claim its not relevant. That's a tad hypocritical Dave, you're just digging yourself into a deeper and deeper hole!
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So those he is speaking about have been instructed in the scriptures and rejected it.........
Hilariously false.
Nowhere does it say they have read and rejected the scriptures. Go back and read it again, Paul is addressing the Godly believing saints of Rome Dave, not the unregenerate.
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so Paul points them to the proof of creation and to the God who had created everything in heaven and earth.
You've twisted what Paul says back to front. Paul is addressing the saints of Rome, Godly believers. Therefore his reference to those who suppress the truth is to other Gentiles who reject the evidence of creation.
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This is true but how would they know which God had created everything mankind has had no end of God's for everything under and including the sun but the God of the bible they have not known.
You really don't understand do you Dave? How can you be so blind to what Paul says here?
Rom1v20For from the creation of the world His invisible qualities, both His eternal power and divinity, are clearly seen, being understood by the things made, so they are without excuse.
The beauty of creation itself proclaims God the creator, that's why men will have no excuse when they come to judgement.
You don't need a bible to tell you that the creator God created everything!
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The only ones who was given this knowledge is Israel and then Christians and there were not many of them when Romans was written.
Israel was born over 2000 years after Adam. That's 2000 years with no bible. How on earth did he know God without the King James to read, Lol!
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Are you asking me to believe that the natives of North and South America and Australia and the Eskimos etc  5000 years ago could learn everything they needed to know by looking at nature they may possibly have come to the conclusion that a god had created something but the God of the bible they could not possibly know.
There you go again, putting stupid words in my mouth.
I never said that everything about God could be found by looking at creation. I said the creator God himself could be known.

The scriptures, especially the message of the cross, are of no value to those who are spiritually dead.

1Cor1v18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Before anyone can understand scripture, they need to have the Spirit of God within them, ie. they need to be believers in the God of creation.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

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Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2018, 02:31:53 PM »
Hi John
Thank you for your reply you said.

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.             You assume that God will not know or have planned for those who have never heard, but who are searching for God and that he will not and cannot make himself known to them 

On the contrary I have said a few times I believe that's what the millennial rein of Christ is will about

Quote
.
It is God who saves, there are plenty of stories of muslims, who've never read the bible, having dreams about Jesus and finding out about him without any missionary or preacher       

He may never have read the bible but he has read the Koran and as I understand it it is based on the OT and parts of the new I have read somewhere that Mohammed said that Jesus was the second greatest prophet after him.

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.  Those who died thousands of years ago or who died yesterday are dead. We can do Nothing for them.
The truths in the bible are eternal truths. They didn't become true when someone wrote them down     

Yes your right when some one is dead we can do nothing for them but God can be can raise them up and have the gospel preached to them and this will happen during the millennium.

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Faithfull Jews in isreal following the mosaic rules and laws were saved not by there following thos regulation but by the blood of Jesus applied to them because of their faith and trust in God
   

I thought the Jews had been cast into outer darkness and will not see the light until Christ's return.

Love and Peace
Dave





Offline davetaff

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Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2018, 03:23:54 PM »
Hi Frances

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.  Hilariously false.
Nowhere does it say they have read and rejected the scriptures. Go back and read it again, Paul is addressing the Godly believing saints of Rome Dave, not the unregenerate     

Glad I could make you laugh but it does say they hold the truth in unrighteousness I take that to mean the truth found in scripture.
Yes Paul is writing to the church in Rome but he is speaking about those who hold the truth in in righteousness not the righteous.

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. You've twisted what Paul says back to front. Paul is addressing the saints of Rome, Godly believers. Therefore his reference to those who suppress the truth is to other Gentiles who reject the evidence of creation       

I've never said he was'nt what I am saying is he is warning those who hold the truth in in righteousness to look at creation.

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.You really don't understand do you Dave? How can you be so blind to what Paul says here?
Rom1v20For from the creation of the world His invisible qualities, both His eternal power and divinity, are clearly seen, being understood by the things made, so they are without excuse.
The beauty of creation itself proclaims God the creator, that's why men will have no excuse when they come to judgement.
You don't need a bible to tell you that the creator God created everything         

I believe every word of the verse you have quoted and that the God of the bible is the creator of everything we see.
What I do not believe is that someone could look at creation and know that it was the God of the bible that created it.

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. Israel was born over 2000 years after Adam. That's 2000 years with no bible. How on earth did he know God without the King James to read, Lol       

You know and I know that God spoke to our early ancestors he spoke to Adam in the garden he spoke to Noah and Abraham and Moses and the prophets.
But he did not speak to every individual but only those he needed to further his plan of creation.

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Before anyone can understand scripture, they need to have the Spirit of God within them, ie. they need to be believers in the God of creation     

I can agree with that but why does the spirit day different things to different people.

Love and Peace
Dave


Offline francis drake

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2018, 06:58:21 PM »
Hi Frances

Glad I could make you laugh but it does say they hold the truth in unrighteousness I take that to mean the truth found in scripture.
Wrong again Dave. Show me exactly where it tells you Paul is speaking about the "truth found in scripture".
The whole passage is about truth found in creation and until you stop twisting the plain words of scripture, there's little point in further discussion.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline John

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2018, 07:01:18 AM »
Dave,
            "On the contrary I have said a few times I believe that's what the millennial rein of Christ is will about!"

Where did you get this nonsence from Dave. Reread the passages again as every passage that refers to the resurrection of the dead, in conection with Jesus's 2nd coming, also links that resurrection to jugement.

Nowhere in the bible is the idea found that after death there is a 2nd chance.


Offline John

Re: Fate of unbelief
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2018, 07:05:32 AM »
Dave,
      "I thought the Jews had been cast into outer darkness and will not see the light until Christ's return."

If Jesus's sayiings only refer to the Jews where do we get our knowledge of salvation from?

The disciples took what Jesus taught to them and applied it to All people, so when Jesus talks  about people being cast into outer darkness, while he was talking to the Jews, his words can be applied to all who rejected him.

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