Author Topic: War and Peace  (Read 2421 times)

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Offline davetaff

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #72 on: April 11, 2018, 02:41:03 PM »

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Hi Frances
Thanks for your reply You said
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Matt8v12But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Is casting people into eternal damnation the same as loving them Dave?     

The children of the kingdom mentioned here is Israel they were cast into outer darkness when they rejected and crucified our lord Israel died.
The weeping and gnashing of teeth will happen when the recognise who Jesus is and accept him as there Messiah.

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Yet he told the Pharisees they were on the way to eternal damnation.   

Mar 3:28  Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29  But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
   


Surely the above applies to every one not jest the Jews.

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Certainly, nobody doubts that Jesus paid for all mankind with his blood, but unregenerate mankind still remains outside of God's love and well on their way to eternal damnation.   

Nobody is outside Gods Love he proved this when he sent his only begotten son to die for us.

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Wrong. The Law remains as does its curse. The disobedient who reject God will still spend eternity without God   

The curse of the law is the death sentence passed on mankind of which Christ has redeemed us through his sacrifice I have never said the law has been abolished all I have said is we have a better way of complying with it through Love.

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The free gift of love is not for the proud. It only comes to the humble,.   

Agreed.

I get the impression that you think God will achieve his purpose by violence by using the letter of the law but I think he has proved conclusively that crime and punishment dose not work and never can we only have to look at the history of Israel to see this.
Not only that jest look at the world around us we have more laws than we no what to do with and new ones every day but as long as people break them and most of us do if its only a speeding fine what good are they yes I know its all we have.
But God has shown us a better way LOVE when every one loves one another we wont need all these laws this is the new world to come.

Love and Peace
Dave 


   

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Offline francis drake

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #73 on: April 13, 2018, 09:08:02 AM »
The children of the kingdom mentioned here is Israel they were cast into outer darkness when they rejected and crucified our lord Israel died.
Its only the unbelievers in Israel who are cast out. The apostles and disciples were also Israelites but obviously not cast into outer darkness.
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The weeping and gnashing of teeth will happen when the recognise who Jesus is and accept him as there Messiah.
Nonsense. The weeping and gnashing of teeth was because they were now cast into outer darkness, not because they accepted their Messiah!
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Mar 3:28  Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29  But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
   


Surely the above applies to every one not jest the Jews.
Obviously blasphemy against the Holy Ghost applies to everyone. I never said anything different.
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Nobody is outside Gods Love he proved this when he sent his only begotten son to die for us.
Notwithstanding that God sent his only son to die, those who reject God are still cast into outer darkness, and are thus completely outside of God's love.
God is love, and always has been love, nothing ever changes that. But unlike the saints who dwell within God and He in them, the unregenerate remain outside of God and therefore outside of his love.

Anyone who spurns God, also spurns his love.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline John

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #74 on: April 13, 2018, 09:25:43 AM »
Jesus said about his mission:-

John 3: 14,Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.?
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God?s one and only Son.                           
19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.                                                                                                                                                    20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.


Note, we do not have to do evil deeds, just not believing in Jesus as Lord and Saviour is an evil deed that has condemned already those who do not believe.

Offline francis drake

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #75 on: April 13, 2018, 10:13:31 AM »
I get the impression that you think God will achieve his purpose by violence by using the letter of the law but I think he has proved conclusively that crime and punishment dose not work and never can we only have to look at the history of Israel to see this.
That's an astonishing statement to make Dave. According to you, the law that God commanded through Moses has failed. Obviously God doesn't have your wisdom, maybe he should have consulted you first.

The Law of Moses was and still is hugely successful in its intended purpose, which was never to make people righteous! Here's what the Law was about.-
Gal3v24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
The purpose of the law was to demonstrate man's utter failure at trying to be good, and to enable punishment for those who offended it.
Punishment under the law, was and still is necessary to put restraints on evil.
In doing that it was extremely successful. The fact that both Israel and the rest of mankind has done everything in its power to subvert and replace God's law, does not mean that it has failed.

If you look at Jesus's ministry, you will see he always returned to what the law meant. The Pharisees were self proclaimed embodiments of perfect law keeping, yet Jesus said that our righteousness must exceed theirs!
He said abstaining from adultery was not good enough because lust in the heart made a man just as evil in God's eyes.
He said that in God's eyes, hidden anger revealed murder within.
He told people that they would have to pluck their eyes out and chop their hands off if they wanted to be righteous under the law.
He told the rich man he had to give his money away if he wanted to be perfect under the law.

All this and many more examples of righteousness under the law can be found in the gospels, and everyone was intended to convey utter failure.
The purpose of Jesus's ministry was to make it clear that man had failed and would always fail in his attempts at self righteousness. In that purpose the Law was a perfect instrument and Jesus did not add one jot or tittle to it, nor would he remove one jot or tittle from it. It would always stand there for all to see.
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Not only that jest look at the world around us we have more laws than we no what to do with and new ones every day but as long as people break them and most of us do if its only a speeding fine what good are they yes I know its all we have.
This is thoughtless woolly nonsense, pandering to Satan's deception.
I take it Dave, that you would prefer a world without law and punishment?
You would prefer that murderers and rapists had nobody to stop them?
Can you not see that no laws means no crime, which means no police. Criminals are no longer criminals, just free agents doing what they please to do.
No laws means we would be living in Satan's world.
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But God has shown us a better way LOVE when every one loves one another we wont need all these laws this is the new world to come.
Thankfully, even unregenerate politicians have more sense than head in the cloud/sand Christians. Even when they do it badly, they know that laws are still necessary to contain evil.

Adam was created and dwelt in perfect love and harmony with God with no need whatsoever to rebel against God's love. Yet we know he did!
If love alone is the answer, how come it failed with Adam?

Lucifer was created perfect and dwelt in the presence of God, yet he rebelled and went his own way.
If love alone is the complete answer, why did it fail with Lucifer?

In the Millennial Kingdom, Christ himself will reign on earth from Jerusalem, and Satan will be bound for 1000 years. You will find however that the Law is still in force in that 1000 years!
Does that mean God in Christ has failed?
Obviously not. Despite Christ being on earth and flowing with God's love, and also accessible to man, there are still those who hate God, don't want his love, and who practice lawlessness.
Freewill guarantees that, and love alone cannot stop it.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #76 on: April 13, 2018, 02:42:12 PM »
Hi Frances
You said
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Its only the unbelievers in Israel who are cast out. The apostles and disciples were also Israelites but obviously not cast into outer darkness   

I thought this was so obvious it did not require an explanation.

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Nonsense. The weeping and gnashing of teeth was because they were now cast into outer darkness, not because they accepted their Messiah   

But Frances they did not know they were cast into darkness they still believe to this day they are gods chosen people its only when they realise who Christ is will there be weeping and Gnashing of teeth.

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Notwithstanding that God sent his only son to die, those who reject God are still cast into outer darkness, and are thus completely outside of God's love.
God is love, and always has been love, nothing ever changes that. But unlike the saints who dwell within God and He in them, the unregenerate remain outside of God and therefore outside of his love.   

I don't believe anyone is out side Gods love Christ did not die for the righteous but for sinners and his blood is sufficient for the whole world.

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That's an astonishing statement to make Dave. According to you, the law that God commanded through Moses has failed. Obviously God doesn't have your wisdom, maybe he should have consulted you first.   

The only one who has kept the whole law is Jesus Christ we can tun it round if you like Man failed to keep the law but any way you look at it the law dose not work.
But through Christ God has shown us a better way that will work at some point in the future, but until then all we have is the law of God and the law of man and thats the best we can hope for att the present time but I still pray thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

 
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This is thoughtless woolly nonsense, pandering to Satan's deception.
I take it Dave, that you would prefer a world without law and punishment?
You would prefer that murderers and rapists had nobody to stop them?
Can you not see that no laws means no crime, which means no police. Criminals are no longer criminals, just free agents doing what they please to do.
No laws means we would be living in Satan's world.   

Well that is nonsence I have never said that the law has been abolished why do tou keep putting words in my mouth in a way you are right I look forward to a world with no law but that is a long way of after the millenium until then we have to work with what we have.

Now I will say again that this thread was never meant to discuss the law as sutch but the question I was looking to answer who do we obey God or Man.

Love and Peace
Dave 




Offline davetaff

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #77 on: April 13, 2018, 02:49:54 PM »
Jesus said about his mission:-

John 3: 14,Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.?
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God?s one and only Son.                           
19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.                                                                                                                                                    20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.


Note, we do not have to do evil deeds, just not believing in Jesus as Lord and Saviour is an evil deed that has condemned already those who do not believe.

Hi John
Good post I enjoyed reading it and your statement at the end I agree with.
what do you think of all those who have never heard of the God of the bible or Jesus I would think there numbers run into millions if they have never heard then they cannot believe.

Love and Peace
Dave 

Offline francis drake

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #78 on: April 13, 2018, 10:13:43 PM »
what do you think of all those who have never heard of the God of the bible or Jesus I would think there numbers run into millions if they have never heard then they cannot believe.
Nobody has never heard of God.

Romans1v18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
The whole of this verse explains it. The Spirit of God whispers in every man's conscience, convicting of sin and righteousness. What we do with that whisper is entirely our own free choice, but ignore or suppress it at your peril.
Newness of life is only a whisper away for anyone on the planet, whether they have read a bible or not.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead;so that they are without excuse:
It couldn't be clearer, the invisible and eternal things of God are clearly seen and understood by all. No excuse is acceptable to God.
Every man woman and child has an inner sense of God. How we respond is down to our freewill.
Ignore the inner whisper of God at your peril, there will be no excuses at the judgement.

I knew the Lord over ten years before I heard the gospel! My wife had a powerful experience of the Lord at 3 years old, but didn't read a bible or hear the gospel till she was 18.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #79 on: April 14, 2018, 05:43:17 PM »
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Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply although I don't agree with your interpretation nothing new in that :D

Rom 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
   

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation without Faith and Nowledge of the gospel we can not be saved if you are right there would be no point in preaching the gospel.
V18 the wrath of God is directed at those who know the truth who have recieved the gospel and hold it in unrighteousness it is not for those who have never heard the gospel.

Rom 1:19  Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
     


Again we have to think about who Paul is speaking to the church in Rome believers who had received the gospel he is showing them the importance of creation it proves who he is when one looks at the magnificence of creation one has to believe there is a God.
What he is saying in effect is when you start to fall away jest consider creation and you will know for certain that there is a God.

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I knew the Lord over ten years before I heard the gospel! My wife had a powerful experience of the Lord at 3 years old, but didn't read a bible or hear the gospel till she was 18.   

I don't doubt you for a moment but were you and and the wife saved before you had faith in Jesus through the gospel.

Love and Peace
Dave






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