Author Topic: War and Peace  (Read 2416 times)

Description: the futility of war

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Offline John

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2018, 02:37:04 PM »

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Dave,
           You believe that a nation should not oppose the agression of another nation.
That in 1914 Britain was wrong to oppose German agression.

Are the police also wrong to restrain violent drunks or violent criminals?

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Offline davetaff

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2018, 05:25:32 PM »
Dave,
           You believe that a nation should not oppose the agression of another nation.
That in 1914 Britain was wrong to oppose German agression.

Are the police also wrong to restrain violent drunks or violent criminals?

Hi John
Thanks for the reply and the question but its not so much about what countries should do but about what the Church of Christ should do what should the global church of Christ do should it follow Christ or the ruling party in the country they reside in.

Joh 17:14  I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15  I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Joh 17:16  They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
   
 

As we see from the above the church is not of the world it is the body of Chris and as such should follow his commands of Love.

so as for your question it's not what England or Germany should have done but what the united church of Christ should have done witch was stand united and condemn war and command all Christians to lay down there arms and go home to there wives and children how many of the17 million would have been saved quite a few I would think.
The devil has done a great job in dividing the church into little pieces and as such it has very little power all they seam to do squabble between them selves.
The church which is the body of Christ should be governed by its head and King Jesus Christ it should have one voice the voice of Christ as we have it in the scriptures and his commands are to Love.

As For
Quote
Are the police also wrong to restrain violent drunks or violent criminals   
 

No they are not wrong they are there to keep the peace and Paul tells us to submit to the powers that be to live peaceable lives nothing wrong with that.
there is a big difference between that and getting a gun and blowing some ones head of who mite well be a fellow Christian a brother in the lord.

IHAD A DREAM

Love and Peace
Dave   

Offline John

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #50 on: April 02, 2018, 07:43:30 PM »
Dave,
            Decide what you are talking about. Christians or society.
Society has the right and the authority to wage war against other societies/nations.

It is Christians responcibility to determine whether the cause for that war is just or not.

To say that Christians should never support their country is to hand the decision about going to war to those who are not Christian.  Think about it.
If no Christians spoke about the morality of going to fight, who is going to be influencing the decision?

Read:-
Romans 13:1, Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God?s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God?s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.                                                                                                                                                              6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God?s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.


What does verse1 say?  Be subject to the government.  Yes we have to obey God but that doesn't mean we avoid the responcibility of being a cityzen.


Offline francis drake

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #51 on: April 02, 2018, 11:19:27 PM »
Hi Frances
I did answer your post but it seams you missed it so here it is again.


Quote from: francis drake on March 30, 2018, 09:57:33 AM
Dave, do you agree with the execution of proven murderers. Or should they be just imprisoned?
I am not referring to wartime or accidental killings, just murderers in the conventional meaning of the word.

Hi Frances
Thanks for your post no I don't agree with killing murders if we kill them we become like them all killing is against the laws of love as layer down by our lord Jesus Christ to love our neighbours and to love our enemies you can't love some one and then kill them.

Love and peace
Dave
My apologies Dave. I looked but didn't see it.

This is what the Lord commanded Noah when he came out of the Ark. As can be seen, they were given meat to eat for the first time, but with some very specific instructions to do with blood. Take note, this is maybe a thousand years before Moses Law was given.
Genesis 9v3Every moving thing that lives shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. 4But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
The blood always belongs to the Lord and must not be eaten but poured out. However, if someone was murdered, there were very specific instructions.
5And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
More specifically-
6Whoso sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
ie. If someone is murdered, the murderer must not be allowed to live, he must be killed so his blood is poured out on the ground.
The problem is that when a life is taken and his blood spilt on the ground, the ground becomes polluted. It can only be cleansed on the payment of the murderer's blood.
One of the main reasons that Satan has gained such power over this nation is because of letting murderers off the hook.

 Our land is extremely polluted spiritually, and that pollution grants demons great power. Every shedding of blood through murder grants demons ever greater power to shed more blood. Whether you like it or not, the facts of life that the following scriptures address remain applicable today.
Numbers 35v15?These six cities shall be for refuge for the sons of Israel, and for the alien and for the sojourner among them; that anyone who kills a person unintentionally may flee there.v16?But if he struck him down with an iron object, so that he died, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death. 17?If he struck him down with a stone in the hand, by which he will die, and as a result he died, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death. 18?Or if he struck him with a wooden object in the hand, by which he might die, and as a result he died, he is a murderer; the murderer shall surely be put to death. 19?The blood avenger himself shall put the murderer to death; he shall put him to death when he meets him. 20?If he pushed him of hatred, or threw something at him lying in wait and as a result he died, 21or if he struck him down with his hand in enmity, and as a result he died, the one who struck him shall surely be put to death, he is a murderer; the blood avenger shall put the murderer to death when he meets him.

There is no escape for deliberate murder, no jail time, no compensation payment. Blood alone is the price to halt Satan's power. The only escape is for manslaughter when it wasn't a deliberate killing.
 30?If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death at the evidence of witnesses, but no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness. 31?Moreover, you shall not take ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death, but he shall surely be put to death. 32?You shall not take ransom for him who has fled to his city of refuge, that he may return to live in the land before the death of the priest. 33?So you shall not pollute the land in which you are; for blood pollutes the land and no expiation can be made for the land for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who shed it. 34?You shall not defile the land in which you live, in the midst of which I dwell; for I the LORD am dwelling in the midst of the sons of Israel.??

It was Satan who drove this nation to abort millions of babies, pouring their blood down the drain. That mass slaughter of millions of children has empowered Satan to even greater acts of depravity.

I have posted these scriptures to show that judicial killing is not merely permitted, but commanded. And not just through the Law of Moses, but back to the re-establishment of the planet under Noah. Noah's laws still apply.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #52 on: April 03, 2018, 10:51:34 AM »
Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply I see time and effort has gone into it and I thank you I can't fault any of the scriptures you quote but I would like to ask you what do you think the following scripture means.

.      11  If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

 12  For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law   


My own view is yes the law when first given was everything you said in your post eye for eye tooth for tooth.
But with the coming of Christ the law was changed it was lifted up into the spiritual realms.
It's all about love grace and forgiveness if you kill the murderer you take away his opportunity to repent
Look at what our Lord said and done with the woman caught in adultery he said you who is with out sin cast the first stone we are all sinners we have all broken the law.

Love and peace
Dave

Offline davetaff

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #53 on: April 03, 2018, 04:17:52 PM »
Dave,
            Decide what you are talking about. Christians or society.
Society has the right and the authority to wage war against other societies/nations.

It is Christians responsibility to determine whether the cause for that war is just or not.

To say that Christians should never support their country is to hand the decision about going to war to those who are not Christian.  Think about it.
If no Christians spoke about the morality of going to fight, who is going to be influencing the decision?

Read:-
Romans 13:1, Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God?s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God?s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.                                                                                                                                                              6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God?s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.


What does verse1 say?  Be subject to the government.  Yes we have to obey God but that doesn't mean we avoid the responcibility of being a cityzen.

Hi John
Thanks for your reply And I can agree with what Paul has to say in a nut shell live peaceful and law-abiding lives not a problem.
but what do we do when the command of the governing body of the land we live in contradicts the commands of our Lord Jesus Christ whom shall we obey.
As Christians how are we to fight what weapons do we use again we turn to saint Paul for the answer

Eph 6:11  Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13  Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14  Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15  And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16  Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17  And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
   


as you see our fight is not physical but spiritual yes we are commanded to kill but with baptism and the sword of truth the word of God the taking of human life is against everything Christ stands for.

I am not stupid I have read what Christ has said about the end times there will be wars and rumors of wars and thing will get worse but it dose not mean we should approve or take part in them. 

Quote
  It is Christians responsibility to determine whether the cause for that war is just or not.
   
 

It is the Christian responsibility to obey our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ.

Love and Peace
Dave 
 

Offline francis drake

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2018, 05:44:52 PM »
Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply I see time and effort has gone into it and I thank you I can't fault any of the scriptures you quote but I would like to ask you what do you think the following scripture means.

.      11  If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

 12  For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law   


My own view is yes the law when first given was everything you said in your post eye for eye tooth for tooth.
But with the coming of Christ the law was changed it was lifted up into the spiritual realms.

Wrong Dave. The Law has not changed, nor will it ever change, Jesus made that very clear.-
Matt5v17Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18(a)For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth shall pass away, not even one iota, nor one stroke of a letter, shall pass away from the law, until everything should happen.
Quote
It's all about love grace and forgiveness if you kill the murderer you take away his opportunity to repent
Look at what our Lord said and done with the woman caught in adultery he said you who is with out sin cast the first stone we are all sinners we have all broken the law.
You don't seem to understand the purpose of the Law Dave. It was never intended to make anyone righteous, but to expose and deal with evil, and it still does that today.

1Tim1v8Now we know that the Law is good, if one uses it legitimately.
From everything you have said Dave, you are not using or understanding the Law legitimately. The next verse explains its purpose, and that purpose applies from Genesis to Revelation as a proof of man's need of a saviour.

9For the law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
Nothing whatsoever has changed as far as the law is concerned. It still stands and does what it was designed to do, exposing sinners and enabling them to be punished as a God of justice demands.

Just as the law works from Genesis to Revelation, so does God's mercy and forgiveness work from Genesis to Revelation, they both run concurrently.

Without the Law of Moses, or other Laws of man, chaos would reign for the simple reason that man is inherantly evil.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline francis drake

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2018, 06:16:47 PM »
Dave,
           You believe that a nation should not oppose the agression of another nation.
That in 1914 Britain was wrong to oppose German agression.

Are the police also wrong to restrain violent drunks or violent criminals?
Agreed.

Throughout our history, when the nation is under threat, we find a consistent record of God intervening on our behalf in answer to our humble intercession in prayer.
That can be seen in the Spanish Armada when the nation prayed. God delivered us from a far greater military force, not just because of the skills of my namesake Francis Drake, but because of the storm that arose and drove the Spanish ships onto the rocks all around the British Isles.
Elizabeth 1st had medals and plaques made acknowledging God's answer to the nation's prayers.

In WW1, there are military records of angels being seen on the battlefield on more than one occasion, again following National Days of prayer. When German prisoners were interrogated, they said they knew the war was lost when they saw the angels on our side.

The deliverance at Dunkirk is such an amazing testimony of God's intervention following the National Day of Prayer called by the King on May 26th 1940. Churches throughout the land were filled with people crying out for God's mercy for our beleaguered army after Holland Belgium and France's defenses collapsed.

The result was a profound miracle of deliverance that everybody knew was God's intervention on our behalf.
Churchill stated that they expected to evacuate 20-30,000 men, but the final figure was an incredible 335,000 men, rescued off the beaches to fight another day.
June 9th was appointed as the National Day of Thanksgiving for Dunkirk.

Again it was the National Day of Prayer called by the King that turned the Battle of Britain from the war of attrition against our pilots to a massive victory on August15th 1940.

Many of our military leaders were God fearing men of war who saw again and again what God did on the battlefield.

The title Lord of Hosts actually means the Lord of Armies. That includes heavenly and earthly armies.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

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