Author Topic: War and Peace  (Read 2227 times)

Description: the futility of war

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Offline John

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2018, 06:58:24 AM »

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There are two different Hebrew words used in scripture and both mean to kill and murder like I said before if you kill some one you murder them and if you murder them you kill them.
All killing is wrong and against Gods Law.

Love and Peace
Dave

They both do not just mean murder. God himself said that certain sins/crimes were punishable by death.
Which means by your understanding of the hebrew that God is authorising the murder of guilty persons. It also means that as God takes away everyones life that you believe that God murders everyone.

Murder is the unlawfull taking of human life.
Killing is the lawfull taking of human life eg in battle, sel defence or to exceute a murderer, or the accidental taking of human life.

These different meanings are found in the bible.

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Offline Tes Johnson

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2018, 01:49:18 AM »
Hi
I have been wondering with all this on the news of late with world leaders measuring themselves by themselves there hands twitching over there little red buttons where should we stand as Christians behind our head of government or behind Christ.

Its ok for those up the top they press the button then disappear down there prepared bunker its always the rank and file who have to go out and kill each other and in many cases it can mean Christian V Christian.

we buy a red poppy every year in memory of those that died should it be in memory of all those that died friend and foe alike.

Where should we stand as Christians I am speaking of Christians around the world should we stand up as one body and say enough is enough we will not kill each other any more I'm sure many others would join us


Exo 20:13  Thou shalt not kill.

 Mat 5:21  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22  But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
   
 

Killing is against the law of love how can we love our neighbour then go out and blow his head of is tit time to say no.

Love and Peace
Dave


The argumennt here - is that "people by traditiion wear poppies as a mark of respect "

These people wear poppy's as a  sign of respect and in memory of those who died in war,....

These people gave their lives for their country....

So this is the opposition that you face wthtin this post @davetaff

So if you wear a poppy you are commemorating the death of an enemy,....

By wearing a poppy you are saying "yes to murder"

Therefore you have to split this topic to make sense of it ..

And make murder different to killing...

Killing is now okay - as long as it it is under the order of the governing  authority.

It is the mind trying to and person trying to make sense ...  of a situation...


Offline davetaff

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Re: War and Peace
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2018, 11:54:55 AM »
They both do not just mean murder. God himself said that certain sins/crimes were punishable by death.
Which means by your understanding of the hebrew that God is authorising the murder of guilty persons. It also means that as God takes away everyones life that you believe that God murders everyone.

Murder is the unlawfull taking of human life.
Killing is the lawfull taking of human life eg in battle, sel defence or to exceute a murderer, or the accidental taking of human life.

These different meanings are found in the bible.

Hi John
Thank you for your reply but I see murder and killing as one and the same..
God did not kill the human race Adam did through disobedience.
Death is only sleep God can and will resurrect every one in the end times.
According to what you say solders in charge of the death camps in the second world are innocent because they were only odeying orders and the indiscriminate bombing of civilians woman and children is OK they were only obeying orders think of the two atom bombs droped on Japan.
How about the Inquisition and the crusades do we have any evidence that God ordered these killings.

Love and Peace
Dave



Offline Tes Johnson

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2018, 12:50:13 AM »
 I'm just presenting the conflict here - through different eyes

Hope you get my argument !

Quote
Killing is the lawfull taking of human life eg in battle, sel defence or to exceute a murderer, or the accidental taking of human life.

These different meanings are found in the bible.
  @John

Quote
Quote
Quote
Killing is the lawfull taking of human life eg in battle

Since when was killing lawful  or moral  ?



I have offered an instance within a war /battle/  when David used it [to murder a person] 


2 Samuel 12:4 ?Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him.?

5David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, ?As surely as the Lord lives, the man who did this must die! 6He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity.?


Now never mind the hebrew or the greek as things change over time [even though God lives outside of it /He still see's through our theology]

Now look at Matthew 19:8  Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

Ahh see how things have changed over the ages - as God tries to communicate with people - even though His nature does not change... [for there  is no shadowwww of turning with theeeeee]

God did not change....this is about people deiding when life ends/  [this is murder]

See how God changes to suit the heart ?  this is the picture of the farmer looking for the lost sheep...

[Now this only works when the lost want to be found]

Anyway - I am going off topic now...

God allows war in His [permissive will] because He is aware of our will..

Find the greek for that....

Now once you have found that answer [find another question]

So now you have people dying of hunger and poverty - so why has God's Will  changed our hearts..No He has not ...but God has changed the way He speaks....



Offline John

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2018, 07:12:53 AM »
Hi John
Thank you for your reply but I see murder and killing as one and the same..
God did not kill the human race Adam did through disobedience.
Death is only sleep God can and will resurrect every one in the end times.
According to what you say solders in charge of the death camps in the second world are innocent because they were only odeying orders and the indiscriminate bombing of civilians woman and children is OK they were only obeying orders think of the two atom bombs droped on Japan.
How about the Inquisition and the crusades do we have any evidence that God ordered these killings.

Love and Peace
Dave

Dave,
           To be blunt, it is not what you see or think that matters, nor what I think, but what God has told us.
The bible makes the distinction between the taking of human life for personal reasons, by accident or for legal reasons.

Only the first is murder. the second is manslaughter the third is a legal exceution, killing in war or self defence.

In an ideal world these would not happen.

Offline francis drake

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2018, 09:57:33 AM »
Hi John
Thank you for your reply but I see murder and killing as one and the same..

Dave

Dave, do you agree with the execution of proven murderers. Or should they be just imprisoned?
I am not referring to wartime or accidental killings, just murderers in the conventional meaning of the word.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline francis drake

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2018, 10:05:42 AM »

Since when was killing lawful  or moral  ?



I have offered an instance within a war /battle/  when David used it [to murder a person] 

2 Samuel 12:4 ?Now a traveler came to the rich man, but the rich man refrained from taking one of his own sheep or cattle to prepare a meal for the traveler who had come to him. Instead, he took the ewe lamb that belonged to the poor man and prepared it for the one who had come to him.?

5David burned with anger against the man and said to Nathan, ?As surely as the Lord lives, the man who did this must die! 6He must pay for that lamb four times over, because he did such a thing and had no pity.?


Now never mind the hebrew or the greek as things change over time [even though God lives outside of it /He still see's through our theology]
This is a straw man argument Tes and has nothing to do with the question. What on earth has David's sin against Bathsheba's husband got to do with anything. It was murder, plain and simple, and he was caught out on it.
Quote
Now look at Matthew 19:8  Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

Ahh see how things have changed over the ages - as God tries to communicate with people - even though His nature does not change... [for there  is no shadowwww of turning with theeeeee]

God did not change....this is about people deiding when life ends/  [this is murder]

See how God changes to suit the heart ?  this is the picture of the farmer looking for the lost sheep...

[Now this only works when the lost want to be found]

Anyway - I am going off topic now...

God allows war in His [permissive will] because He is aware of our will..

Find the greek for that....

Now once you have found that answer [find another question]

So now you have people dying of hunger and poverty - so why has God's Will  changed our hearts..No He has not ...but God has changed the way He speaks....
Tes, I cannot make head or tail of what you are saying here, just more confused typing.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2018, 11:28:16 AM »


Thanks Francis

I am posting for the gerneral public , to understand.

I am sorry you are confused

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