Author Topic: War and Peace  (Read 2424 times)

Description: the futility of war

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Offline davetaff

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2018, 03:54:31 PM »

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Dave,
        As far as Jesus is concerned if you are under orders, you obey those orders. The only time you would disobey the legal orders of your officers or of the government is if like in communist countries they seek to order you not to worship Jesus.

So have you signed the pettition?

On what scripture do you base the above statement, the way I see it yes by all means obey the governing body not a problem but when there orders contradict our Lord then we should follow our Lords command which is

Exo 20:13  Thou shalt not kill.   

show me the get out clause

Love and Peace
Dave

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Offline Tes Johnson

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2018, 12:04:06 AM »


Not sure  this topic is quite as black and white as it may seem, their are a lot of blurred edges..

With all the atrocities and war crimes - whether the government is corrupt or not/ does it really depend on me or the authority over me..

If I am under a goverment that authorises  ethinic cleansing by destroying homes and raping and pillaging or under hitler's control [is it me or the spirit] so oftyen people say "you cannot blame the devil]

Being under an authority does not always get me off the hook - whether I am accountable or not [I certainly would have felt accountable being the one to drop the bomb on Hiroshima...









Offline Tes Johnson

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2018, 02:37:28 AM »



I am reninded of 2 Samuel 11:15 In it he wrote, "Put Uriah out in front where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die."

Offline John

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2018, 08:02:41 AM »
Dave,
         you are not following the explanations.
God said in the 10c do not murder. That is the meaning of the hebrew.
When Tyndale transl;ated this into english, killing meant unlawfull taking of human life or to use another word murder.

You are giving your authority to an un authorised understanding of english.

Offline francis drake

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2018, 01:59:10 PM »
Hi Frances
you said
Well Frances are you saying the Mathew 5 is only for the Jews in which case I have to disagree its for everyone The verses I have chosen state categorically that should love our enemies and if we love them then we should not kill them as for the law.

Mat_5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
   

So lets apply Matt5v18 to what you are attempting to prove, and although it's about circumcision here's what Paul says about the man who cherry picks bits from the Law to suit his fancy.

Galatians5v  2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


Paul says-
1). Dave no longer has any benefit from Christ
2). Dave is obliged to keep the whole law.
3). Dave has fallen from grace.

What you are pushing Dave, is just wood, hay, and stubble.

1Cor3v12Now if anyone builds upon the foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or stubble, 13the work of each will become manifest, for the day will disclose it, because it is revealed in fire, and the fire itself will prove the work of each, what sort it is. 14If the work of anyone that he built up will remain, he will receive a reward. 15If the work of anyone will be burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, but so as through fire.


Wood hay and stubble just represent the self righteous "good works" of man. They will be burned up along with all the other garbage of religion that man tries to present to God.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline francis drake

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2018, 02:26:42 PM »
Hi Frances
you said
Well Frances are you saying the Mathew 5 is only for the Jews in which case I have to disagree its for everyone The verses I have chosen state categorically that should love our enemies and if we love them then we should not kill them as for the law.

Mat_5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
   


The Law is not just one verse Dave, or the Ten Commandments, it is everything contained in the book of the law.

So the Lord gives your favourite commandment, thou shalt not kill, which you insist means any killing whatsoever, including in wartime. Then he makes other commandments including the following commandments to kill millions of people he didn't like!

Deut7v2And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

10And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face. 11Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.


If you insist on obedience to the Law as in your verse, (Mat_5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.) then it also applies to all the killing that God commanded.

Stop turning God into a wuss. That's not the God of the bible.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2018, 03:58:20 PM »
Dave,
         you are not following the explanations.
God said in the 10c do not murder. That is the meaning of the hebrew.
When Tyndale transl;ated this into english, killing meant unlawfull taking of human life or to use another word murder.

You are giving your authority to an un authorised understanding of english.

Hi John thanks for your reply how do you view the following

Mat 5:21  Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:     

H7523

רָצַח
râtsach
raw-tsakh'
A primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, that is, kill (a human being), especially to murder: - put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er).
Total KJV occurrences: 47




G5407

φονεύω
phoneuō
fon-yoo'-o
From G5406; to be a murderer (of): - kill, do murder, slay.
Total KJV occurrences: 12

There are two different Hebrew words used in scripture and both mean to kill and murder like I said before if you kill some one you murder them and if you murder them you kill them.
All killing is wrong and against Gods Law.

Love and Peace
Dave 

Offline davetaff

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2018, 05:02:46 PM »
Hi Frances
Quote
The Law is not just one verse Dave, or the Ten Commandments, it is everything contained in the book of the law.   

Agreed and the law tells us what sin is dose it not

Mat 22:37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38  This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
 
 Mat 5:43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
 


As you can see from the above the words of our Lord if you follow his commands of love we fulfil the law.
The law has not gone away if you steal if you commit adultery and if you kill you break the Law in the old dispensation breaking the law had consequences.
But now if we break the law we can have forgiveness if we repent.

I don't know if I am understanding you wrong but it seams to me what you are saying is everything Christ said was only for the Jew and has  no relevance for us.

Quote
Deut7v2And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

10And repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face. 11Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.   

Now this was for the Jews not for us if God gives a command then that's what you do but I have no knowledge of God commanding any one after Christ to go out and Kill or destroy any one.

His command now is to smite them with the sword of truth witch is the word of God and to kill them with baptism there is nothing in the laws of love witch gives us the right to physically kill another human being.

Love and Peace
Dave
 

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