Author Topic: War and Peace  (Read 2419 times)

Description: the futility of war

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Offline davetaff

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2018, 02:57:15 PM »

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So you are accusing God of using different words now are you Dave. It is not me or the bible translators who are changing the words, they are recording what god has said.

As you know there is a difference between you or I killing someone and the state killing someone.
If the uk was openly seeking to practice Christianity and follow God's law then you would have a point, but this state is not Christian and has a god given mandate to protect it's citizens from threats of violence. That includes being allowed to use lethal force.

Are you aware that the only countries seeking to use weapons of mass destruction are isis and other terrorist groups.

the west with all its many faults is far better at protecting people and there rights than communist and islamic states.
I've been posting about religious freedom in the uk. Have you sign the petition?

Hi John
Thanks for your reply no I am not accusing God of changing words but man I generally use KJV the only reason being this as far as I know was the first full translation into English and as such may well be inspired by the Holy Spirit I have no proof of that of course but its what I believe.

The state uses us to kill each other Killing is wrong and cannot be justified yes you are right there is a great evil in the world its everywhere we look but shall we overcome evil with evil or with Good with love with understanding.

Mat 22:39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
   


Should we not keep this commandment

Love and Peace
Dave
 

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Offline John

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2018, 07:47:22 PM »
If you read the article I put a link to then either you have no problem with the 10c saying do not murder or you are accusing God of playing with words.
The hebrew in the 10c says murder. In Tyndales time Killing also meant murder, the meaning of killing has changed.

Offline davetaff

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2018, 02:33:51 PM »
If you read the article I put a link to then either you have no problem with the 10c saying do not murder or you are accusing God of playing with words.
The hebrew in the 10c says murder. In Tyndales time Killing also meant murder, the meaning of killing has changed.

Hi John
Thanks for your reply not to sure what you are trying to get at If I kill someone I commit murder If I murder someone I kill them there really is no difference.
The command was given to Moses and its what it meant when given which was thou shalt not kill and I can't see any get out clauses.

Our Lord said

Mat 5:43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
   
 

Are you saying we should ignore the above command is it not true if we kill our enemies we become no better than them.
If we have eternal life should we be bothered about loosing this life if we break the above command are we at risk of loosing our salvation should we set an example to the world or should we conform to the world.

Joh 17:14  I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15  I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
Joh 17:16  They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
     


Do the above only apply to the apostles or to all believers I believe to all believers and as such we should follow our lords commands not the commands of men.

Love and Peace
Dave 

Offline John

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2018, 05:38:13 PM »
Dave,
 "Thanks for your reply not to sure what you are trying to get at If I kill someone I commit murder If I murder someone I kill them there really is no difference.
The command was given to Moses and its what it meant when given which was thou shalt not kill and I can't see any get out clauses"

If you act as an individual to take someones life deliberatly then that is murder, but if as an active solder you follow orders to open fire and you shoot and kill someone, that is not murder.

This is the situation that applied through out Israeles history and applies in every country that follows a rule of law.


What you have to remember is that Jesus was speaking to individuals, he didn't address the Roman nation, nor did he address Israel, his commands are to us as individual believers.

As to whether you should obey a lawful order or law from the British government is up to you.

Offline davetaff

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2018, 02:40:54 PM »
Hi John
Thanks for your reply and I understand what you are saying I have done my 6 years for queen and country luckily I was not ordered to shoot anyone but is I had been I most proberbly would have at that time but not now.

you said
Quote
If you act as an individual to take someones life deliberatly then that is murder, but if as an active solder you follow orders to open fire and you shoot and kill someone, that is not murder.
   

My question is who's orders should we follow our Lords to love our enemies and do them good or mans to do them harm.

Quote
This is the situation that applied through out Israeles history and applies in every country that follows a rule of law.     

but we are not under the law that Israel recieved but under grace the law has bean lifted up into the spiritual realms
the law became obsolete because it did not work.
but we received a new law the law of love if we keep this law we comply with the law given to Israel but at a higher level.

Quote
What you have to remember is that Jesus was speaking to individuals, he didn't address the Roman nation, nor did he address Israel, his commands are to us as individual believers       

the words of Lord were to be preached to the world Jew and gentile alike it is meant for everyone to accept or reject if we kill someone we reject his command.

Quote
As to whether you should obey a lawful order or law from the British government is up to you   

I don't have a problem of following the laws layed down by goverment they are for our well being but when the those laws conflict with the laws of love as given by our Lord then we should follow our Lord.

Love and Peace
Dave






Offline francis drake

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2018, 06:01:29 PM »
Hi John
Thanks for your reply not to sure what you are trying to get at If I kill someone I commit murder If I murder someone I kill them there really is no difference.
The command was given to Moses and its what it meant when given which was thou shalt not kill and I can't see any get out clauses.

Our Lord said

Mat 5:43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
   
 

Are you saying we should ignore the above command is it not true if we kill our enemies we become no better than them.

You are being very selective Dave. Matthew5 (including these verses) is about the Law of Moses, with Christ explaining to the Jews what righteousness via the Law required. You cannot extract the bits that you fancy, you have to comply with the whole law.
Quote
If we have eternal life should we be bothered about loosing this life if we break the above command are we at risk of loosing our salvation should we set an example to the world or should we conform to the world.
And what about chopping your hands off or plucking your eyes out? Have you obeyed those verses, or are you without sin Dave?
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline John

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2018, 07:59:46 AM »
Dave,
        As far as Jesus is concerned if you are under orders, you obey those orders. The only time you would disobey the legal orders of your officers or of the government is if like in communist countries they seek to order you not to worship Jesus.

So have you signed the pettition?
 

Offline davetaff

Re: War and Peace
« Reply #23 on: March 26, 2018, 03:44:16 PM »
Hi Frances
you said
Quote
You are being very selective Dave. Matthew5 (including these verses) is about the Law of Moses, with Christ explaining to the Jews what righteousness via the Law required. You cannot extract the bits that you fancy, you have to comply with the whole law.
     

Well Frances are you saying the Mathew 5 is only for the Jews in which case I have to disagree its for everyone The verses I have chosen state categorically that should love our enemies and if we love them then we should not kill them as for the law.

Mat_5:18  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
   


The law is very much alive and kicking What our Lord said was the best way to comply with the law was through Love if we Love as we should then we keep the Law.

1Pe 4:8  And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.     

Quote
And what about chopping your hands off or plucking your eyes out? Have you obeyed those verses, or are you without sin Dave?   

What about it we Know that our hand or eye only dose what we tell it to do this is our Lords way of telling us at what lengths we shoud go to avoid sinning.

Love and Peace
Dave


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