Author Topic: Forgiveness, unconditionally  (Read 3724 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline John

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #96 on: November 21, 2018, 12:14:26 PM »
Dave,
             I have consitently used Jesus's attitude while being crucified as our example.
Where in there do you get 'holding evil thoughts' from.

If anything evil thoughts are more likely to be held by the Christian who week after week endures coffee being spilt on them by the same repentant person.

Is it evil to expect justice on an offender?

Offline davetaff

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #97 on: November 21, 2018, 05:07:07 PM »
Hi John
thank you for your reply you said

Quote
  I have consitently used Jesus's attitude while being crucified as our example.
Where in there do you get 'holding evil thoughts' from.     

It seams we have our own interpritation of what Jesus said on the cross which was

Luk 23:34  Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots     

If I understand you correctly you are saying Christ could not forgive them and handed it over to the father and we should do the same.

I say all forgiveness comes from the father that's why Christ said what he did and showed his love for them by asking
he father to forgive them and in so doing followed his own command.

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you         
       

As for holding evil thought what I meant is if someone dose something bad to us our first reaction is to have a go at them depending on what they have done to us is how we retaliate if someone hits us do we hit them back or turn the other cheek hitting back or even thinking about it is sinful.

what is important here is what was in Christs heart when he asked the father to forgive them was it vengence or love as I have said before its not about what the other party dose but what we do.


Love and Peace

Dave 
 

Offline John

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #98 on: November 23, 2018, 11:31:46 AM »
Dave,
             Jesus and God the Father could not forgive the solders who crucified Jesus, because they had not repented.

We copy Jesus because in so doing we hand our pain, resentment etc to God for him to deal with.

Offline davetaff

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #99 on: November 23, 2018, 06:41:12 PM »
Dave,
             Jesus and God the Father could not forgive the solders who crucified Jesus, because they had not repented.

We copy Jesus because in so doing we hand our pain, resentment etc to God for him to deal with.

Hi John
Thank you for your reply I will ask you again on what scripture do you base this opinion I can't find any.
You have not addressed any of the scripture I have quoted why not.
What do you think the following scriptures mean.

. 44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (Compare)

 45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

 46  For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

 47  And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

 48  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect         


You said
Quote

             Jesus and God the Father could not forgive the solders who crucified Jesus, because they had not repented       


Where in scripture does it say this would the father refuse his only begotten son

Quote
.  We copy Jesus because in so doing we hand our pain, resentment etc to God for him to deal with       

Sounds like a cop out to me maybe we should take the advice of St Paul.
.   19  Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

 20  Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. (Compare)

 21  Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good     


Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Maggy

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #100 on: November 29, 2018, 05:10:06 PM »
I have recently read the book "The Shack" about a man whose 6 year old daughter was murdered.
He asks God why he should forgive and whether this includes being friendly toward the killer.
The reply from God said that he need not enter into any relationship with the killer, but forgiveness would hand the killer over to God's mercy.

Perhaps God has forgiven all sins, but will not enter into a relationship with us until we have repented and turned to Jesus.

I also think that this rule from God is for our own welfare. It is a miserable, self destroying state to be in when you cannot forgive.
As someone said near the beginning of this debate, to forgive brings release and joy to the forgiver.

John; is there someone you can't forgive?

The act of forgiveness can be difficult to achieve, but if you take it one step at a time and seek to understand the offender gradually, then it can come, with God's help. If you do not know the person then imagining the degraded life of the perpetrator can help.
Maggy

Offline John

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #101 on: November 30, 2018, 06:51:44 PM »
Dave,
          Forgiveness always starts with the offender saying sorry.

Tell me Dave, how are the parrents of the chibrok girls kiddnapped by bokko harum to do good to the kidnappers?
They can pray for them yes, but how are they to do with their feelings over their missing daughters?
The only practical thing they can do is like Jesus and his murders, is hand them over together with their feelings to God for him to do what is right.

As Gods forgiveness involves us saying sorry to God if we or those kidnappers don't say sorry then there is no forgiveness.

Maggy, Forgiveness always, always and only happens if there is repentance.
God has done all that needs to b e done to forgive sinners and it is there for them, but if they don't say sorry to God they are not forgiven, but are condemned.
That is the pattern we as Christian should follow.

Offline davetaff

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #102 on: December 10, 2018, 11:43:36 AM »
Hi John
Thank you for your reply of course the perpetrator of a crime must repent if he wants to be forgiven.
What I am trying to get at is how should we as Christians react to those who do us wrong.
What I believe the bible teaches is that it we hold thoughts of vengeance against anyone for example if we wish that someone had killed one of my family and I had thoughts of killing them then I become as guilty as them in God's eyes I am a murderer.
So we have to let these evil thoughts go and the best way to do that is by loving your enemies and following the scriptures I have quoted.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline John

Re: Forgiveness, unconditionally
« Reply #103 on: December 10, 2018, 07:49:35 PM »
Dave,
           I'm very boring cos I'll repeat what I've said all along.
We have to imitate Jesus and commit the offender to God.

To expand on that.

If we are serious about commiting someone who has offended against us we have to tell God about the offence, how we feel about it and hand everything over to God.
We cannot expect God to deal with an offender if we are still holding on to our feelings of hurt or resentment etc.
Part of our handing everythoing over to God and our acceptance of it being in Gods hands is our willingness to pray for the benefit/welbeing of the offender.